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Subject: Fair turn order option rss

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Rick Weckermann
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Right away i saw the importance of turn order in this game, and dealt it a fix that our game group does with other games as well. For 6 player give each player a D6 to be placed on your player card that you use to signify passing. The first player to pass, flips his card and turns his D6 to 1 and places it on the card. The next player to pass flips his card and turns his D6 to 2 and places it on the flipped card. This continues until all players have passed. The die in front of the players now is the new turn order for that turn. The clockwise from who passes first is unfair, even the expansion attempt with counterclockwise rotation is still often unfair to those who may pass third but never go third even if they were the third one to pass in all 9 rounds in a game with 4 or more players. This method works great and our gaming group treat it as a common (house) rule now. For more than 6 players a D10 could be used. I have added a D6 with matching color to all the different colors in the game. I hope some of you try this, you will see how well it works and how fair it is immediately i am sure.
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Bryann Turner
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This variant has been done before. It's a very common thing. There are files in the file section for nice printouts to use with pawns to visually see turn order.

Clever idea with the dice, though.
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Philip Thomas
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Yes we (the Isleworth Boardgamers) have been doing this all January. Well, except the 30th, when we played a 3 player expansion game which was functionally equivalent (the second player never chose to be last).

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Heiko Günther
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I am intrigued; may I inquire how all of youse went about and fixed the highly unfair first turn player order, the possibly totally unfair random distribution of drawn hexes, the crazy unfair drawing of victory point markers after battles and the potentially incredibly unfair relation between races chosen and techs drawn?

Seriously though, neither I nor my group ever felt the need to change the player order. To us, the actions you take on your turn are small and fast enough to more than level this bump in the road of fairness.
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Edmund Ward
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lee elektrik wrote:
I am intrigued; may I inquire how all of youse went about and fixed the highly unfair first turn player order, the possibly totally unfair random distribution of drawn hexes, the crazy unfair drawing of victory point markers after battles and the potentially incredibly unfair relation between races chosen and techs drawn?

Seriously though, neither I nor my group ever felt the need to change the player order. To us, the actions you take on your turn are small and fast enough to more than level this bump in the road of fairness.


There is a distinct difference between randomness in terms of the hexes, VPs, etc, vs the advantage that can be gained from happening to sit to the left of a weak player, who is unable to take as many actions as you. This variant makes passing much more tactical, and only improves the game.

I think many/most people have been using turn order = pass order variant for some time. Never thought of using dice to indicate turn order though. That's a good one.
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Heiko Günther
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hudcrab wrote:
There is a distinct difference between randomness in terms of the hexes, VPs, etc, vs the advantage that can be gained from happening to sit to the left of a weak player, who is unable to take as many actions as you. This variant makes passing much more tactical, and only improves the game.

I think many/most people have been using turn order = pass order variant for some time. Never thought of using dice to indicate turn order though. That's a good one.
Sorry to have been unclear. My first paragraph was to be taken lightly, while only the part starting with 'Seriously though,' was meant to be taken serious. You are absolutely right, there is a difference between those examples, and it is distinct. How 'fair' or 'unfair' each, respectively the advantage gained from each, may be I beg to differ on though.

However, I do not think the 'pass order = turn order variant' improves the game. It may do so for some groups, but at least ours likes the flow that is favoured by the simple 'sitting order = turn order' rule. For us, that makes stuff a lot faster and improves the game considerably over any other turn order variant.

Additionally, I guess many/most people do not hang out on BGG a lot/at all and play the game with the rules provided in the box.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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Pass Order = Turn Order has a side benefit that is easy to miss. Often, using the variant, you will NOT be sitting next to the player who came before you, which allows your turn to be faster, as the moves you take are of less consequence to the people in turn order around you. This makes the game move along faster, not slower, as some at first thought the more complicated ordering would do.

Before we started using the variant, I tried to keep things moving swiftly, but ran into a lot of "I need to see exactly what Johnny is going to do before I take my turn" because it was always a neighbor going next in turn.
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Jim Richardson

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lee elektrik wrote:
I am intrigued; may I inquire how all of youse went about and fixed the highly unfair first turn player order, the possibly totally unfair random distribution of drawn hexes, the crazy unfair drawing of victory point markers after battles and the potentially incredibly unfair relation between races chosen and techs drawn?

Seriously though, neither I nor my group ever felt the need to change the player order. To us, the actions you take on your turn are small and fast enough to more than level this bump in the road of fairness.


100% unjustified sarcasm. Pretty much everyone on Vassal uses pass-turn order and there's a reason for that. If you really think order doesn't matter, why not do away with even the first player's pass counting for the turn order? Just keep it the same the whole game! ...
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Heiko Günther
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ParticleMan wrote:
If you really think order doesn't matter, why not do away with even the first player's pass counting for the turn order? Just keep it the same the whole game! ...

Please. I was not referring to order as a philosophical concept but to variable turn order in Eclipse.

Also, I was only talking about the preferences of my group. Perhaps we are a bit slow, perhaps only fatalistic. We just prefer the faster playing style that arises from not bothering too much about turn order. We accept the 'unfairness' that comes with it.

Sorry, I never play anything on Vassal, so I could harldy comment on that. But, when playing in the digital world, a variable turn order does not mean a slower gameplay, so my argument is not valid there either way. So that's a certain plus. On the other hand, I wouldn't want the guys to bring their laptops so we sit together to play a game on Vassal, it kind of feels wrong.
 
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Jim Richardson

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I've done pass-turn order IRL and it wasn't a problem as long as people were paying attention to the game.
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James Jenkins
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We use 1st to pass leads, next to pass choses CW, CCW. Works out okay.

 
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G B
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ParticleMan wrote:
I've done pass-turn order IRL and it wasn't a problem as long as people were paying attention to the game.


We use Dice to keep track of turn order. I added purple dice to my set and when people pass, they turn their dice to the pass number.
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Wim van Gruisen
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ghbell wrote:
ParticleMan wrote:
I've done pass-turn order IRL and it wasn't a problem as long as people were paying attention to the game.


We use Dice to keep track of turn order. I added purple dice to my set and when people pass, they turn their dice to the pass number.

Does the expansion come with nine-sided dice?
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G B
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No it doesn't, but I have about 5 million ten sided dice in my collection from over the years, so I didn't have an issue coming up with substitutes.

If you don't have any, you can buy them for like .50 each at a FLGS.
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Eetu Immonen
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ghbell wrote:
ParticleMan wrote:
I've done pass-turn order IRL and it wasn't a problem as long as people were paying attention to the game.


We use Dice to keep track of turn order. I added purple dice to my set and when people pass, they turn their dice to the pass number.
So you use Wombat dice (mb) for turn order? How do you resolve the Wombat Phase then?!
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G B
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Rick Weckermann
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Our group sees the importance incorporating this turn order method in other games. When you know your groups play styles this becomes more relevant and adds to the enjoyment and strategy in the game.
Make the turn order markers of cards/token if you wish from 1-6/9 if you do not want to use dice .
Right now i am looking at getting rocket dice on kickstarter for game. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/springboard/rocket-dice?... If the goal goes high enough i can get the 8 or 10 sided rocket dice. That would prompt me to make a 10th player for game with extra tiles and parts i have.
 
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S. O.
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Everyone on Vassal who is not brand new does this. There's even 2 cubes of each color on the Order/Passing sheet in the module.
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