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A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Move Order Clarification rss

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RAKHIM Harun
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quick question regarding rules: Say you place an order token on a territory with 3 of your units (eg. 1 footman, 1 knight, one seige). I know that you can move each unit separately to a different territory, but can you move them to the same territory one after the other? Ie. Moving from Winterfell to Moat Caitlin - can I move one footman to Moat Caitlin to start a combat round, then move the knight and seige in right after (on the same turn) to start a new combat? Reason for doing this would be to burn house cards or make the other guy waste his. Thanks
 
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David Laine
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No. All moves from that territory will occur at once (you can't initiate a battle and wait to see how it happens before moving the rest of your units), and you can only initiate one combat per move order.
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Enon Sci
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miesdeldolor9 wrote:
No. All moves from that territory will occur at once (you can't initiate a battle and wait to see how it happens before moving the rest of your units), and you can only initiate one combat per move order.


And, the key element here, that combat move has to be made last. If you have other movement to do, it must be done before the combat move.
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Radosław Michalak
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Anarchosyn wrote:
miesdeldolor9 wrote:
No. All moves from that territory will occur at once (you can't initiate a battle and wait to see how it happens before moving the rest of your units), and you can only initiate one combat per move order.


And, the key element here, that combat move has to be made last. If you have other movement to do, it must be done before the combat move.

You are wrong. I also thought like that, but
Quote:
Before resolving combat, all other non-combat
movement from the area assigned the March Order
must be completed.

So you can move some units to battle, then some to another area, and then resolve battle.
It may be important due to supply limits.
 
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T.J.
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Radziol wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:
miesdeldolor9 wrote:
No. All moves from that territory will occur at once (you can't initiate a battle and wait to see how it happens before moving the rest of your units), and you can only initiate one combat per move order.


And, the key element here, that combat move has to be made last. If you have other movement to do, it must be done before the combat move.

You are wrong. I also thought like that, but
Quote:
Before resolving combat, all other non-combat
movement from the area assigned the March Order
must be completed.

So you can move some units to battle, then some to another area, and then resolve battle.
It may be important due to supply limits.


I'm not sure how you understand the quote you bring, but it seems to me that it says exactly what Enish was saying - namely, that before you start (and resolving) combat, you have to do all your other moves from that area.

You seem to be saying that you can move to a territory where there is an enemy, not resolve the combat while you do other moves, and then get back to the combat to resolve it. That may be ok but it seems to not matter in terms of supply and only be confusing. Do you have an example where this matters for supply?
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Radosław Michalak
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Perrytom wrote:
Radziol wrote:
Anarchosyn wrote:
miesdeldolor9 wrote:
No. All moves from that territory will occur at once (you can't initiate a battle and wait to see how it happens before moving the rest of your units), and you can only initiate one combat per move order.


And, the key element here, that combat move has to be made last. If you have other movement to do, it must be done before the combat move.

You are wrong. I also thought like that, but
Quote:
Before resolving combat, all other non-combat
movement from the area assigned the March Order
must be completed.

So you can move some units to battle, then some to another area, and then resolve battle.
It may be important due to supply limits.


I'm not sure how you understand the quote you bring, but it seems to me that it says exactly what Enish was saying - namely, that before you start (and resolving) combat, you have to do all your other moves from that area.

You seem to be saying that you can move to a territory where there is an enemy, not resolve the combat while you do other moves, and then get back to the combat to resolve it. That may be ok but it seems to not matter in terms of supply and only be confusing. Do you have an example where this matters for supply?

Sure.
You have 4 units in area with march order, in other areas you have 3 and 2 and you want to move one unit to area with 2 units. Before moving to battle it gives you 3, 3 and 3 which is forbidden due to supply. But you can move unit(s) to start battle and then 1 unit to have now 1-2, 3 and 3 which is OK for supply and now resolve your battle.
 
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T.J.
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Ok, I see what you mean. That's helpful, thanks. It really seems to matter in very specific cases but it does matter.

The way I've always seen it (which circumvents the problem) is that all marches are simultaneous. So, you only check supply before and after the 'march' which just includes all the separate marches. With regards to resolution of combat, the most important point is that you can't move any of the other units after you've seen the results of combat, you have to first announce the entire march (including whether or not you leave a PT) and then you can do combat.

Thanks for the clarification, it's much clearer now.
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Enon Sci
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Radziol wrote:


You have 4 units in area with march order, in other areas you have 3 and 2 and you want to move one unit to area with 2 units. Before moving to battle it gives you 3, 3 and 3 which is forbidden due to supply. But you can move unit(s) to start battle and then 1 unit to have now 1-2, 3 and 3 which is OK for supply and now resolve your battle.




Three rules to keep in mind (quoted from page 15 of the rule book):

1. For each March Order, a player may move units into only one area containing another house.

2. When a player moves one or more units into an area containing units from another house, he starts a combat as the attacker.

3. The bit you quoted ("Before resolving combat, all other non-combat movement from the area assigned the March Order must be completed.")

#1 I quoted as the singularity clause: only one combat.

#2 is the immediacy clause: when a unit invades another's zone, combat occurs immediately.

#3 is the "combat happens last" clause, since all non-combat movement from the area must be completed.
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Radosław Michalak
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Perrytom wrote:
Ok, I see what you mean. That's helpful, thanks. It really seems to matter in very specific cases but it does matter.

The way I've always seen it (which circumvents the problem) is that all marches are simultaneous. So, you only check supply before and after the 'march' which just includes all the separate marches. With regards to resolution of combat, the most important point is that you can't move any of the other units after you've seen the results of combat, you have to first announce the entire march (including whether or not you leave a PT) and then you can do combat.

Thanks for the clarification, it's much clearer now.

I can't imagine a situation when seeing all moves as simultaneous could result with wrong movement, so good for you
However example in rules shows us movements as one after another.
 
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Radosław Michalak
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Radziol wrote:


You have 4 units in area with march order, in other areas you have 3 and 2 and you want to move one unit to area with 2 units. Before moving to battle it gives you 3, 3 and 3 which is forbidden due to supply. But you can move unit(s) to start battle and then 1 unit to have now 1-2, 3 and 3 which is OK for supply and now resolve your battle.




Three rules to keep in mind (quoted from page 15 of the rule book):

1. For each March Order, a player may move units into only one area containing another house.

2. When a player moves one or more units into an area containing units from another house, he starts a combat as the attacker.

3. The bit you quoted ("Before resolving combat, all other non-combat movement from the area assigned the March Order must be completed.")

#1 I quoted as the singularity clause: only one combat.

#2 is the immediacy clause: when a unit invades another's zone, combat occurs immediately.

#3 is the "combat happens last" clause, since all non-combat movement from the area must be completed.

I don't know why you quote me #1
I don't see any "immediately" or similar in that sentence.
#3 - "start combat" and "resolve combat" are different things.
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Enon Sci
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Radziol wrote:

I don't know why you quote me #1
I don't see any "immediately" or similar in that sentence.
#3 - "start combat" and "resolve combat" are different things.


So you think combat starts, pauses -- allows for more movement -- and the begins again for resolution? That's all well and good, but you're playing wrong.

"When" you do X, you "start" Y is the general construct of the sentence. This is an argument for the immediacy of Y when X occurs.



p.s. I quoted #1 on a lark, just to include the full spectrum on the combat dynamic.
 
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Paul Evans
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Having followed AGOT for a few months now, and read a bunch of the historic thread I now just accept whatever Radziol has to say.
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PaulEvans wrote:
Having followed AGOT for a few months now, and read a bunch of the historic thread I now just accept whatever Radziol has to say.


Why am I not surprised you're putting forth a faith based argument.

whistle

Serious guys, what do you think "Starts combat" means? It means the combat begins--starts--initiates--turns on. These are all synonyms.
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Radosław Michalak
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PaulEvans wrote:
Having followed AGOT for a few months now, and read a bunch of the historic thread I now just accept whatever Radziol has to say.

Don't be so hasty. I've made some mistakes
 
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Radosław Michalak
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Anarchosyn wrote:
PaulEvans wrote:
Having followed AGOT for a few months now, and read a bunch of the historic thread I now just accept whatever Radziol has to say.


Why am I not surprised you're putting forth a faith based argument.

whistle

Serious guys, what do you think "Starts combat" means? It means the combat begins--starts--initiates--turns on. These are all synonyms.

I'm not the only one who think like this:
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8575033#8575033
"starts" means that combat is already initiated, but not that you immediately start resolving its result.
If you want to be sure, ask question to FFG.
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Amin
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Radziol's reading can be supported from one reading of the rulebook pg 15, but the response from Jason Walden to Ståle Mellesdal here is relevant and would overrule it.
http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8714497#8714497

Personally, I would go with Jason's way of handling marches as it makes sense to me and also prevents supply hiccups from happening if you lose the battle and retreat back to that original location.

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Martin Hall
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I think technically supply has to be met with every move.
But in your example, unless one of the units in the 4 stack is staying home or moving elsewhere, you would end up breaching supply.

0) Start with 4, 3, 2
1) you move 1 unit into combat = 3, 3, 2, 1 OK
2) Now move 1 unit to 2 stack = 2, 3, 3, 1 OK
3a) move rest into combat = 0, 3, 3, 3 Not OK

If you are only attacking with 2 and leaving 1 at home, then the order makes a difference

3b) move 2 into combat = 1, 3, 3, 2 OK

But in this case you might be able to send the 2 attackers first, if you don't have another 2 stack elsewhere.

1) attack 2 units = 2, 3, 2, 2

In prsctice I think the practical solution is that the supply limits need to be met just prior to combat being resolved (ie after all moves are completed, but before retreats and/or losses).
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Radosław Michalak
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I've sent question regarding "start combat" and "resolve combat" to FFG.
 
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Radosław Michalak
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I have my response!
And I don't have to apologise
Quote:
Hi
One user of BGG asked you a question:
Quote:
The rules state that moving into an occupied area starts combat, and that any other non-combat marches from the same area must be completed before resolving the combat. My question is this: Is "starting a combat" and "resolving the combat" 2 separate steps? In other words, can you march into an occupied area, then perform other marches from the same area before actually playing the combat? Or do you immediately switch to "combat mode" when entering the enemy area, which means that the other units from the same area must have moved before making the actual attack movement?
This can be relevant due to supply. As an example of this kind of situation: Say you have 1 supply, so you can have two armies of 3 and 2 units. You have 3 areas with the following number of units in them:
A - 3
B - 1
C - 2
In addition, another House holds area D with some amount of units.
You play a march order on A, with the intention of attacking D. Marching 1 unit into B would break supply, as you would then have 2, 2 and 2 units stacked. However, moving 1 unit into D and then 1 into B would not break supply.

And answer was:
Quote:
If a player is using his march order to move units into two separate areas (one empty/friendly area and one enemy area where a combat would ensue), he must first move the units that are moving into the empty/friendly area and then move the units that would start the combat.
The issue of supply is thus very relevant, as you suggested. But the other instance where this rule will matter most is retreats. If you march into an empty area adjacent to the area that you are also attacking, you are reducing the options for your opponent to retreat into if he loses.
I hope that clarifies your question.

I'm not sure if it fully covers our problem.
Rules p.15:
Quote:
When a player moves one or more units into an area
containing units from another house, he starts a combat
as the attacker.

and:
Quote:
Before resolving combat, all other non-combat
movement from the area assigned the March Order
must be completed.


Some players see a difference between "start combat" and "resolve combat", some don't.

My question is: when you move your units into area with enemy's units does it mean that you start resolving battle immediately? Or can you move units to start combat (but still not resolve it) then move another unit to another area and then start resolving your battle?

Quote:
I see the confusion now.

Combat (and all of its subsequent steps) does not occur until all units utilizing that March order fulfill their movement. Thus, you can move units into an area containing enemy units and then, using the same March order, move other units into a friendly area all before actually playing out the combat in the first area moved into.

Hope that helps.

Jason Walden
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Fantasy Flight Games
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Seems like Jason either got it wrong last time or he is changing his mind on this issue, because this answer is different from the one before. Which is fine, but it is worth updating the other thread to make sure that thread is up to date.
 
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Radosław Michalak
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Sabzevarian wrote:
Seems like Jason either got it wrong last time or he is changing his mind on this issue, because this answer is different from the one before. Which is fine, but it is worth updating the other thread to make sure that thread is up to date.

Already done.
And sometimes I suspect that the answer from FFG depends on how you ask your question
 
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Radziol wrote:
And sometimes I suspect that the answer from FFG depends on how you ask your question

True, but I really think this is the right ruling. While the 2nd edition wording leaves some ambiguity, 1st edition was pretty clear on this point.
1st Ed March rules wrote:
When you move one or more units into an area that contains units from another house, you are starting a battle, which is resolved before the next March order.

1st Ed Battle rules wrote:
If you move one or more of your units into an area containing units from another house, a battle will ensue once you have completed all of your movement from that March order

Of course 2nd edition did change several rules, but here it just seems less explicit.
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I know this thread is about a month old, but I don't see the distinction we're trying to make.

We all agree you can't resolve the battle before finishing the same March order, correct? That seems clear to me, for reasons already mentioned, such as supply.

What appears to be debated to me is this: you either:

1 - move a unit from region A into an enemy region B, then go back and move more units from region A empty region C, then go back and resolve combat.

Or

2 - must move units into empty region C first, then move your attackers from Region A to enemy region B and resolve combat

I don't see the difference between 1 and 2. Option 2 might be a little more organized for some people, and easier to keep track of. But if you wanted to do option 1, I don't see how it would have any effect on the game.

Being able to resolve battle first would certainly change the game, because army sizes on the board would change, but again, I don't think anyone was arguing that, were they? Or did I misunderstand?

I'm just trying to clarify for myself and I'm about to play my first game.
 
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Radosław Michalak
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1 and 2 are different and we were talking about this.
It's unquestionable that you can't move units after battle is resolved.
However when you move from A to C (before moving to B) you may create situation when supply limit is exceeded (see examples above)
So distinction between start and resolve may matter (very rare situation, but still).
 
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Andy Leber
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Radziol wrote:
1 and 2 are different and we were talking about this.
It's unquestionable that you can't move units after battle is resolved.
However when you move from A to C (before moving to B) you may create situation when supply limit is exceeded (see examples above)
So distinction between start and resolve may matter (very rare situation, but still).


Ah, I had read your example but somehow my brain just didn't comprehend it the first time, because I thought we were still debating when to resolve combat.

But after clarifying the conversation and re-reading your example, it makes sense. Thanks!
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