GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!
10,493 Supporters
$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
13 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
31 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Merchant of Venus (second edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Ideas to "fix" some problems in Standard game rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Matt Connellan
United States
Binghamton
New York
flag msg tools
badge
I am the white void. I am the cold steel. I am the just sword.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
PROBLEM 1: Fuzzy Dice

SOLUTION: Have them cost c100. That way there is more of a risk involved with purchasing, instead of an auto-purchase, but it would still be worth it to players focusing on a heavier Fame strategy.

PROBLEM 2: Cargo Spaces

SOLUTION: Have the two extra cargo slots be worth Infamy instead of fame. That way, not only is there a trade off for obtaining the normally obvious two cargo slots, but players pursuing a fame/passenger oriented strategy would be inclined to not get them, since passengers are easier to fit in a small ship than cargo.

PROBLEM: Tech Slots

SOLUTION : Make all tech (except the upgraded Throttle) take up a tech slot instead of not talking up any/taking up cargo space. Not only would this bolster the concept of making the extra cargo spaces pay infamy (because they'd be less "necessary), it would force players into tougher choices as to which techs they wanted to keep, so they couldn't just take almost any tech they wanted without recourse.

Thoughts?
1 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Pintsizepete wrote:
PROBLEM 1: Fuzzy Dice

SOLUTION: Have them cost c100. That way there is more of a risk involved with purchasing, instead of an auto-purchase, but it would still be worth it to players focusing on a heavier Fame strategy.


This would mean that you would typically make a loss on the Fuzzy Dice, meaning no one would ever buy it.

Quote:
PROBLEM 2: Cargo Spaces

SOLUTION: Have the two extra cargo slots be worth Infamy instead of fame. That way, not only is there a trade off for obtaining the normally obvious two cargo slots, but players pursuing a fame/passenger oriented strategy would be inclined to not get them, since passengers are easier to fit in a small ship than cargo.


The -c20 from the two fame for an extra cargo hold would be so incredibly negligible compared to the extra income you receive from having the cargo hold that it wouldn't make any difference to players' choices - they would still just buy the cargo hold anyway.

Quote:
PROBLEM: Tech Slots

SOLUTION : Make all tech (except the upgraded Throttle) take up a tech slot instead of not talking up any/taking up cargo space. Not only would this bolster the concept of making the extra cargo spaces pay infamy (because they'd be less "necessary), it would force players into tougher choices as to which techs they wanted to keep, so they couldn't just take almost any tech they wanted without recourse.


Way too restrictive.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Jones
United States
Bend
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My views are similar to bleached_lizard's, though I'm curious as to what led you to conclude that these three areas of the game were "problems"?
1 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Harrisburg
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
djnafai wrote:
My views are similar to bleached_lizard's, though I'm curious as to what led you to conclude that these three areas of the game were "problems"?


`Because they deal with two issues with the Standard game:
- There are no tradeoffs on ship design. In the original game, ships with many holds also moved slower--now they don't. Plus the holds are cheap, $40. Deliver one, any item, and the hold is paid for. Drives took up 1/2 a hold space in the old game, now they take up none at all. Most of the tech items don't take up space either. (The only two questions are necessary for equipment or ship upgrade: Will I have the cash I need after this purchase? Will this pay off by the end of the game?

No trade offs means no strategy. (At least in this area of the game.)

- Fuzzy Dice are ultimate expression of this no trade off. They cost $30. The worst that can happen at the end of the game is you roll a three which is worth $30. You could roll doubles and make your fame twice as valuable (at least $200, sometimes much more)

It is like a slot machine the gives you your money back even though you lose.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russell InGA
United States
Johns Creek
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I certainly agree that "Fuzzy Dice" CAN (not are, but can!) be considered broken.

I would have no problem playing any House Rule associated with them. I'd play without them or make up some other Tech to use in their place. (7 / 11 on your bonus Fame roll and you crap out and get no bonus?)

--------------------------------------

As to your other two comments, I, also, don't see the problems you are trying to solve.

As to the holds it sounds like you'd like to have Ship Types like in the Classic game.

As I said in another thread (and was jumped on for it) when you discover a Race you can read the Tech to all the players. You can explain the Techs existence requirements. (YES, this reading / explaining is NOT necessarily if you have all experienced players!)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Connellan
United States
Binghamton
New York
flag msg tools
badge
I am the white void. I am the cold steel. I am the just sword.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
djnafai wrote:
My views are similar to bleached_lizard's, though I'm curious as to what led you to conclude that these three areas of the game were "problems"?


Fuzzy Dice
Fuzzy Dice
Ship Upgrades
Cargo Holds
Fuzzy Dice, Obvious Techs
Fuzzy Dice, Ship Upgrades, Cargo Holds

Oh, and personal thoughts.

Perhaps instead of limiting the tech slots like I originally suggested, making the tech slots with Infamy instead of Fame as well. It seems like getting three techs or two cargo or three pilots is already a good enough reward, shouldn't be getting fame, too (IMO). Pilot levels giving infamy too could work as well. Perhaps that might make the threat of instantly losing due to infamy somewhat of a motivator in regards to ship upgrading. Also, - points.

Perhaps c100 is a tad too much for Fuzzy dice with my new Infamy tweaks. In fact, Fuzzy Dice might be okay with the newfound infamy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Jones
United States
Bend
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks - as to the Fuzzy Dice, you'll see that I've participated in a few of those threads.

On the other issues, I'm still unclear why they are viewed as "problems". It sounds like you just prefer the classic rules, not that the standard rules are particularly "broken" in terms of game mechanic and scoring?

As someone who never played the original version, my view of the merits of the rules are not compared with a different game, just with how well standard plays and whether or not it's fun. For instance, the argument that ship upgrades had a stronger strategic component in classic/original is not an argument against standard's implementation. It causes focus on the game to be elsewhere, which to me is not "broken" but merely "different".
1 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Connellan
United States
Binghamton
New York
flag msg tools
badge
I am the white void. I am the cold steel. I am the just sword.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Never said it was broken, said it has problems. Which it does. Those are not my threads I linked to. Was trying to find solutions for the people who had problems. And me.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Jones
United States
Bend
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Broken, problems, we're talking about the same thing. What are the problems? I still don't understand why those aspects are viewed as problems. The linked threads make comparison to the classic rules rather than talk about *why* the standard rules are problematic.

Fuzzy dice aside. I don't agree that FD is flawed, but I understand the point of view of those that do. :-D

I promise I'm not being argumentative for the sake of debate - these topics interest me greatly, and I also enjoy helping people solve problems.
1 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russell InGA
United States
Johns Creek
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
First, as the Rules Heretic let me commend you for putting forward unpopular and / or unconventional ideas!

Second, it's your game! Make up any rules you like that your group agrees on!

Third, you need to understand what you are being told in this thread: (Fuzzy Dice excepted) Basically no one else seems to see the situation as you do. I haven't read the other threads, as frankly, I'm just not that interested. If there was a deep divide on the other issues you raise I would expect to see some people posting some agreement with you.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Connellan
United States
Binghamton
New York
flag msg tools
badge
I am the white void. I am the cold steel. I am the just sword.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rules_heretic wrote:
First, as the Rules Heretic let me commend you for putting forward unpopular and / or unconventional ideas!

Second, it's your game! Make up any rules you like that your group agrees on!

Third, you need to understand what you are being told in this thread: (Fuzzy Dice excepted) Basically no one else seems to see the situation as you do. I haven't read the other threads, as frankly, I'm just not that interested. If there was a deep divide on the other issues you raise I would expect to see some people posting some agreement with you.


Richard Irving did just that. But this forum is by no means "bumping". It would appear that nobody gives two sheets one way or another.

You didn't read what I linked to, which were other people with those issues, then said nobody else had those issues. You baffle me.

To Derek: ask the original posters why they are problems. Two of them posted in this thread already, then quickly became bored and left.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
To be clear in regard to my post, I believe that what the OP stated are problems, just that his proposed solutions are not good ones. And I have never played the classic game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Jones
United States
Bend
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bleached_lizard wrote:
To be clear in regard to my post, I believe that what the OP stated are problems, just that his proposed solutions are not good ones. And I have never played the classic game.


Cool, then you and I have a similar experience with MoV. At the risk of sounding like a broken record... can you tell me why they are problems?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
djnafai wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
To be clear in regard to my post, I believe that what the OP stated are problems, just that his proposed solutions are not good ones. And I have never played the classic game.


Cool, then you and I have a similar experience with MoV. At the risk of sounding like a broken record... can you tell me why they are problems?


Fuzzy dice - apart from being a no-brainer due to the fact that you will *always* get at least as many credits back as you paid for them, they also provide too many extra credits based on a single die roll. In the games I've played so far, the difference would be in the region of c750.

Cargo holds - so stupidly cheap for the return you get back on them that again they are a no-brainer to buy as soon as possible. In our last game just a couple of days ago, we increased the price of cargo holds to c200 and even this didn't seem like an entirely unreasonable price to pay - we had both still bought two extra cargo holds before the 10th turn.

Technologies - many are unbalanced, mis-costed or no-brainers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate Straight

Covington
Louisiana
msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
bleached_lizard wrote:
To be clear in regard to my post, I believe that what the OP stated are problems, just that his proposed solutions are not good ones. And I have never played the classic game.


The classic game is the good solution.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NateStraight wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
To be clear in regard to my post, I believe that what the OP stated are problems, just that his proposed solutions are not good ones. And I have never played the classic game.


The classic game is the good solution.


I'm starting to think that more and more myself. Although I like all the extra chrome from the Standard game, it just isn't implemented very well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Jones
United States
Bend
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bleached_lizard wrote:
Cargo holds - so stupidly cheap for the return you get back on them that again they are a no-brainer to buy as soon as possible. In our last game just a couple of days ago, we increased the price of cargo holds to c200 and even this didn't seem like an entirely unreasonable price to pay - we had both still bought two extra cargo holds before the 10th turn.

Technologies - many are unbalanced, mis-costed or no-brainers.


In both cases, I still don't understand why it's a problem. It may be a no brainer to buy something if you can afford it, but who gets it first, how far you must travel for it, and what you're willing to give up doing instead are far more strategic IMO than having to save up a bunch of cash. Making cargo holds more expensive I think would only serve to make the game lower scoring, and feel like it's dragging.

Same with technologies, really. Location and turn choices impact the decisions as much as anything. The risk/reward of all ship upgrades changes from game to game based on culture location, your missions, die rolls, as well as how many players there are.

But those are my views. More relevant to you since you've already determined these to be flaws, I don't see any rules tweaks that will address what these without adding even more undesirable drawbacks.

I suppose if you are okay with the pace of the game, you could outlaw the third cargo hold until turn X and the fourth on turn Y. You'd likely end up with most players making sure they are near the right system as soon as they are available, but that's a huge choice that would affect many turns' plans.

Alternatively, and this would be more work, you could modify the market tokens so that what was for sale rotated as well, so you would not be guaranteed that a certain culture is always selling cargo, or shields, etc. Players could then intentionally mess with other players by buying what they need to rotate the market and keep the items unavailable nearby.

On the other technologies I do not have any specific suggestions since no specific complaints are raised.
2 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Turner
Australia
Melbourne
VIC
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
djnafai wrote:

In both cases, I still don't understand why it's a problem. It may be a no brainer to buy something if you can afford it, but who gets it first, how far you must travel for it, and what you're willing to give up doing instead are far more strategic IMO than having to save up a bunch of cash.


Haven't played yet - first game tonight - but ^^^THIS^^^ is the first thing that's comes to mind when I read about trade offs. If the game was as simple as "every turn, move to a new planet and trade" then these would be MUCH bigger problems. But it's the variable speed movement and trade off of time verses gain which is the key issue in a turn-limited game.

(e.g. regarding buying cargo holds and stuff. I'm not touching Fuzzy Dice right now !!!)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Phantomwhale wrote:
djnafai wrote:

In both cases, I still don't understand why it's a problem. It may be a no brainer to buy something if you can afford it, but who gets it first, how far you must travel for it, and what you're willing to give up doing instead are far more strategic IMO than having to save up a bunch of cash.


Haven't played yet - first game tonight - but ^^^THIS^^^ is the first thing that's comes to mind when I read about trade offs. If the game was as simple as "every turn, move to a new planet and trade" then these would be MUCH bigger problems. But it's the variable speed movement and trade off of time verses gain which is the key issue in a turn-limited game.

(e.g. regarding buying cargo holds and stuff. I'm not touching Fuzzy Dice right now !!!)


In our last game, my opponent had a combination of abilities that allowed him to reach anywhere on the board every turn. I jokingly commented that he had an Infinite Improbability Drive.

It was his first game, and he came away from it feeling that it was unbalanced and extremely badly implemented (he won).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Lewis
United States
Thornton
Colorado
flag msg tools
NFHS Football & Basketball
badge
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bleached_lizard wrote:
Phantomwhale wrote:
djnafai wrote:

In both cases, I still don't understand why it's a problem. It may be a no brainer to buy something if you can afford it, but who gets it first, how far you must travel for it, and what you're willing to give up doing instead are far more strategic IMO than having to save up a bunch of cash.


Haven't played yet - first game tonight - but ^^^THIS^^^ is the first thing that's comes to mind when I read about trade offs. If the game was as simple as "every turn, move to a new planet and trade" then these would be MUCH bigger problems. But it's the variable speed movement and trade off of time verses gain which is the key issue in a turn-limited game.

(e.g. regarding buying cargo holds and stuff. I'm not touching Fuzzy Dice right now !!!)


In our last game, my opponent had a combination of abilities that allowed him to reach anywhere on the board every turn. I jokingly commented that he had an Infinite Improbability Drive.

It was his first game, and he came away from it feeling that it was unbalanced and extremely badly implemented (he won).

Was he the Humans?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Larouche
Canada
Longueuil
Quebec
flag msg tools
Melting souls with cuteness since 2007
badge
Lovin' N-16
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The fuzzy dices are not broken and do not need fixing IMO.

Yes they are an inta-buy if you stumble upon them. However, unless you are the player to actually stumble first upon them, you may be required to do a detour to actually get them. The time required adds to the 30c cost much significantly.

I'm going from memory here (so i might be wrong), but i do not believe the civ with the fuzzy dice can purchase the expansive goods. It's a mediocre trading planet at best.

Not everyone gets the fuzzy dice all the time because there's always something better to do than to actually go to that planet just to get the dices. On average, the dice will only net you 40c with a slight chance to give you some more if you get doubles (which you shouldn't count on as the probabilities are slight). Definitely not worth the detour IMO.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sigmazero13 wrote:
bleached_lizard wrote:
Phantomwhale wrote:
djnafai wrote:

In both cases, I still don't understand why it's a problem. It may be a no brainer to buy something if you can afford it, but who gets it first, how far you must travel for it, and what you're willing to give up doing instead are far more strategic IMO than having to save up a bunch of cash.


Haven't played yet - first game tonight - but ^^^THIS^^^ is the first thing that's comes to mind when I read about trade offs. If the game was as simple as "every turn, move to a new planet and trade" then these would be MUCH bigger problems. But it's the variable speed movement and trade off of time verses gain which is the key issue in a turn-limited game.

(e.g. regarding buying cargo holds and stuff. I'm not touching Fuzzy Dice right now !!!)


In our last game, my opponent had a combination of abilities that allowed him to reach anywhere on the board every turn. I jokingly commented that he had an Infinite Improbability Drive.

It was his first game, and he came away from it feeling that it was unbalanced and extremely badly implemented (he won).

Was he the Humans?


Yes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
deedob wrote:
The fuzzy dices are not broken and do not need fixing IMO.

Yes they are an inta-buy if you stumble upon them. However, unless you are the player to actually stumble first upon them, you may be required to do a detour to actually get them. The time required adds to the 30c cost much significantly.

I'm going from memory here (so i might be wrong), but i do not believe the civ with the fuzzy dice can purchase the expansive goods. It's a mediocre trading planet at best.

Not everyone gets the fuzzy dice all the time because there's always something better to do than to actually go to that planet just to get the dices. On average, the dice will only net you 40c with a slight chance to give you some more if you get doubles (which you shouldn't count on as the probabilities are slight). Definitely not worth the detour IMO.


The problem isn't about players *counting* on the Fuzzy Dice giving them hundreds of extra credits. The problem is that on the rare occasions when it *does* happen, it is unbalancing as it offers a disproportionately unfair reward to the player based entirely on luck.

As I have said before in many other threads, a big, unbalanced, game-changing event *cannot* be balanced out by ensuring that it does not occur very often. This *does not* make the mechanic balanced. All it does is make the mechanic extremely *swingy*, where 80% of games will be fine but the remaining 20% will be ruined for one player or another due to being screwed over by the event.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Derek Jones
United States
Bend
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
bleached_lizard wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:

Was he the Humans?


Yes.


Should have bought the Star Map before him!

Re: Horrific movement combo?!? (Standard Game)

Or start a mining operation. So, the result was that he mitigated distance, but lost the ability to do things along the way. And if he wanted to buy/sell more than one, he had to sit still anyway. I do not think this is a guaranteed crushing blow.

But all in all, it sounds like this game is just not for your group. Each point of complaint you have is about imbalance or something being unfair. My point this whole time (well perhaps more so in Fuzzy Dice threads than this one, hehe) is that that is what this game is about, every turn being a collection of maybes and the dice/board/market/players being unfair, that are supposed to be played out in good fun. That's life in the 'verse. It's balanced (to me) because the game is practically full of these situations, for everyone.

If I wasn't allowed to look at the rules or box, and someone taught me this game I'd have guessed it was designed by Vlaada Chvátil but someone asked him to reduce the panic a hair.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Overtext pending moderation...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
He didn't have the star map.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.