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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Discussing Fast Advance and Economy Assets rss

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Eric F
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Hey guys, wanted to start another strategy discussion here.

I love the crap out of my Melange Mining Corp, in any deck that isn't my NBN deck. In NBN, I don't ever include Melange because it is such a vulnerable target. I feel it's too fragile in HQ/R&D, has to always be protected with a pretty decent piece of ICE, etc.

But I started thinking...does it really need to be protected?

===

My question would be, is Melange just worth 1 turn and the burst credits it gives you if the risk pays off playing it unprotected?

My Comparisons will be PAD, Adonis, and Melange (and apparently if there's a new economy asset in CE, I'll add that too). And, it will be the fastest way to get 3 credits (Astroscript Danger Zoooooone!). Whether this is a good comparison or not (there's always more variables), we can expand this out a bit. Also, since all these cards have the same install costs (1a), I left it out for comparison sake. (If we were to compare Beanstalk Royalties as well, I'd have included the install cost.)

===

PAD. One exposed vulnerable turn to pay for itself ((-2c, +1c), +1c). Four exposed turns to get you a total bonus of 3c. Defensive cost of 1a, 4c.

Adonis. One exposed vulnerable turn to pay for itself ((-4c, +3c), +3c). Two exposed turns to get you a total bonus of 4c, three exposed turns to get you a total bonus of 7c. Defensive cost of 1a, 3c.

Melange. One unexposed vulnerable turn to get you a total bonus of 3c (-1c, -3a, +7c). One exposed vulnerable turn for a total bonus of 7c (-3a, +7c). Defensive cost of 1a, 1c.

Marked Accounts. It costs nothing to rez so begins to pay itself off immediately. One exposed turn and 1a for a total bonus of 1c. Defensive cost of 1a, 5c.

Private Contracts. Two actions to get you a total bonus of 1c ((-3c), -2a, +4c). Three actions to get you a total bonus of 3c. Defensive cost of 1a, 5c.

===

Typically, in fast advance, I value my actions more than my credits; it's hard to get going without installed agendas. Since actions can be baseline compared to credits in a 1-to-1 fashion, this is a good way to end up with a direct value, without considering what the saved actions from PAD and Adonis will be (some of those will likely be spent gaining credits).

If anybody has any thoughts, maths, or opinions to add, please feel free.

===

CYBER EXODUS FRENZY:

Both Marked Accounts and Private Contracts are powerful NBN tools. Private Contracts is similar to Adonis, but cheaper to rez, is more flexible than Melange and close enough in efficiency if you dump all your actions into it (3a to 6c, 3a to 7c).

Marked Accounts costs the runner a click to get the money trickle started, but it costs 0 to rez which is huge early game, and it's harder to trash than PAD Campaign.
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El-ad David Amir
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
According to the Cyber Exodus rumors, two new Corp economy cards are coming (one Neutral, one NBN). I suspect that this discussion will not be relevant in a few hours ...
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Eric F
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
I can always add in the new ones (which will be the first thing I do anyways on my own), then can share with you guys.
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B C Z
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
There are times that you end up not drawing to the Agendas, and a nicely protected fort is still needed in most Fast Advance strategies.

Put the Melange into the big fort and wait the customary turn.

If the Runner runs it thinking "Gonna get that Datapool" or "Gonna get that APP", then you cost them the run and whatever it took to get into the server.

Otherwise, Melange rezzes and you sit back a few turns. Melange really HAS to be treated like an Agenda for the Runner -- too much money in NBN's coffers is BAD when it comes to that critical trace.

So either way, unless you overwrite MM voluntarily, the Runner's spending Run+Credit+Run Cost to get rid of your MM.

If you can advance out of hand and keep MM protected, more the better. Breaking News, APP (with one already scored) -- even a naked or lightly protected SanSan can be so costly that the Runner ignores it.

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Andrew Bartosh

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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
I tended towards playing Fast Advance as more midgame bursty, so I found Melange fairly solid. Single remote, build it up, stockpile creds from Melange until I'm ready to start the fast advancing.

Sadly I don't have that much to add beyond that at the moment.

Edit: Byron beat me to it!
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
byronczimmer wrote:
Melange really HAS to be treated like an Agenda for the Runner


This. Either the Runner blows his economy to trash the Melange, giving you the breathing room you need to score an agenda, or the Runner doesn't trash the Melange and you never feel short of breath again. :)
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Adam Perry
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
i've actually been getting a lot of mileage out of beanstalk royalties in my fast advance, as it gives you the three credits you need for that APP or to rez a basic piece of ice for 1-2 clicks. like you (actually, after reading your advice on various topics around BGG regarding NBN fast advance) i am wary to melange as the clicks i lose give the runner that much more time to stop my strategy

i find that putting all of your economy into assets can be really dangerous versus an anarch or criminal runner, and not being able to get that tollbooth money or to rez enough ice is devistating as NBN, when you're supposed to be getting that maximum efficiency out of the early game state. it's safest against shaper, but fast advance is ALREADY pretty safe against shaper (at least Mac anyway) so that's not helping me in that case.

i run 3 beanstalk, 3 hedge, and 2 adonis, in addition to 2 caduceus (and archer i guess, but who runs archer to gain 2 credits?)
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Eric F
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
I've been treating it as an agenda, but for some reason it's not paid off for me most of the time early game, when I'm relying on Melange most.

Turn 1, Install MMC, ICE it, ICE HQ.

If ICEd MMC doesn't ETR, the cost for the runner to get through is zero, or an additional 2 credits and an action to drop a tag (likely).

Mid-late game, Melange is a fine bluff for getting runners to throw money away pointlessly running a server (that's when it has been most useful to me...hence why I dropped it. Same happens with me and Sansan, as bonkers as that card is).

And, at this point, if a runner doesn't run the server, I still have to find ETR ICE to protect it, because I can't actually use it if I can't ETR on it since I have no actions to install additional defenses (or rezzable defenses).

It was _this_ last point that got me to consider this whole thing in general; is it worth it if I can't defend it easily? What is the total swing? At +3c for one unrezzed vulnerable turn...I opted out of it as a no.

I think I will try to make room for it in my deck again (now that Ice Walls are back in too).

I also can advance out of hand (with Breaking News fully advanced...on the table in a different protected server) and scored APPs.
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David Boeren
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
Normally I will only play Melange behind ice so I can either use it multiple times or force the runner to spend significant amounts of cash to trash it.

I do remember one time that I played a bare Melange though. My starting hand was bad, I mulliganed, and it was even worse. I had 3 Agendas, Melange, and some piece of ice I don't recall.

I needed a decoy, and Melange had to be it. I put it out bare, figuring the runner would take it for a PAD Campaign, which he did, and put the ice down. Next turn I took 7 credits from it, forcing him to spend a click and a credit to run on it it and take it out. So with the credit that effectively slowed his development by 2 bits.

It was all smoke & mirrors but it bought me enough time to draw some more ice and make enough money to afford it before he robbed HQ blind.
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MD Chis
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
byronczimmer wrote:
There are times that you end up not drawing to the Agendas, and a nicely protected fort is still needed in most Fast Advance strategies.

Put the Melange into the big fort and wait the customary turn.

If the Runner runs it thinking "Gonna get that Datapool" or "Gonna get that APP", then you cost them the run and whatever it took to get into the server.

Otherwise, Melange rezzes and you sit back a few turns. Melange really HAS to be treated like an Agenda for the Runner -- too much money in NBN's coffers is BAD when it comes to that critical trace.

So either way, unless you overwrite MM voluntarily, the Runner's spending Run+Credit+Run Cost to get rid of your MM.

If you can advance out of hand and keep MM protected, more the better. Breaking News, APP (with one already scored) -- even a naked or lightly protected SanSan can be so costly that the Runner ignores it.



+1
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
Why would you invest in a strong remote server if the whole point of the deck is to score agendas without exposing them to runs?

Strong servers cost somewhere around 15-20 credits to setup but it costs the runner a lot more in the long run... if they run the server. In fast advance the runner shouldn't be running on the remote server as often because the corp should be scoring agendas in one turn.

Against this sort of deck I often see runners run on facedown cards in a server because that is usually their only chance to hit an agenda. Assuming that whatever asset you have is worth more to the corp rezed than unrezed, the main gain for the corp is the asset's trash cost. Melange has a tash cost of 1, which makes it a poor choice in this sort of deck.
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Adam Perry
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
i find sansan, with it's trashcost of 5, to be a valid bluff. i also run red herrings if i'm looking to try and bluff the runner into running on an exposed sansan + one unexposed card. even if they don't, it's still insurance on the 3rd card installed.
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Micheal Keane
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
There's a neutral corp asset that functions like armitage codebusting that costs 3 to rez with a decently high trash cost apparently. Then a low rez cost NBN asset that allows you to spend a click to put 3 on it and it gives you 1 back a turn. The guy is supposed to post pictures in a few hours.

Also, there's apparently a Weyland transaction that gives money for advancement counters on a card.
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Eric F
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
ffaristocrat wrote:
There's a neutral corp asset that functions like armitage codebusting that costs 3 to rez with a decently high trash cost apparently. Then a low rez cost NBN asset that allows you to spend a click to put 3 on it and it gives you 1 back a turn. The guy is supposed to post pictures in a few hours.

Also, there's apparently a Weyland transaction that gives money for advancement counters on a card.


All of these sounds like really decent alternatives to both Adonis and Melange, and maybe even PAD. I actually am looking forward to the Weyland op that pays for advancements (so advancing Shadow/Ice Wall is actually useful, even for NBN).

I think the biggest problem is that the NBN asset sounds like it has to be rezzed before you can use its ability, and then a runner knows exactly what they're gearing up to attack. But, of course, final judgement will be withheld until we can see the cards for realsies.
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Aaron Hedegaard
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
ffaristocrat wrote:
Then a low rez cost NBN asset that allows you to spend a click to put 3 on it and it gives you 1 back a turn.


That doesn't seem right, that just sounds like a worse PAD campaign...
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
athedegaard wrote:
ffaristocrat wrote:
Then a low rez cost NBN asset that allows you to spend a click to put 3 on it and it gives you 1 back a turn.


That doesn't seem right, that just sounds like a worse PAD campaign...


And easy mark is "worse" than sure gamble.

If the trash cost is high, and the rez cost is free, it might not be terrible.

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Eric F
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
athedegaard wrote:
ffaristocrat wrote:
Then a low rez cost NBN asset that allows you to spend a click to put 3 on it and it gives you 1 back a turn.


That doesn't seem right, that just sounds like a worse PAD campaign...


If it's free to rez and has a higher trash cost than PAD (crossing fingers for 6 or 7), that's more than enough for me.
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Aaron Hedegaard
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Re: Discussing Fast Advance and Melange Mining Corp
ignisphaseone wrote:
athedegaard wrote:
ffaristocrat wrote:
Then a low rez cost NBN asset that allows you to spend a click to put 3 on it and it gives you 1 back a turn.


That doesn't seem right, that just sounds like a worse PAD campaign...


If it's free to rez and has a higher trash cost than PAD (crossing fingers for 6 or 7), that's more than enough for me.


Good point. In the long term it's more of a click-hog, but if that was really it's install and trash cost, I'd consider running PAD+Adonis+that in an NBN deck (or depending on influence costs, in HB!). Throw in Encryption Protocols for good measure. Start turn, get rich.
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David Jensen
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Private contracts gets my vote for best of the economy cards.

At 5c to trash, the flexibility to gain some credits while still placing down ICE and the additional benefit of remaining uninstalled into the server acting as a potential agenda bluff (unlike Marked Accounts).

I see the down side of the install costs =( So here's two scenarios...
It's okay if the runner accesses it becuase of its cost. But if it remains for one full turn, you'll net 4 credits (still better than just grabbing 3). I recommend playing it similar to MCC and not installing it the first turn down - watch how often your runner gets to it with fewer than 5 credits.

Where this really shines is low economy / Medium ICE decks (NBN / Jinteki Vertical ICE).
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