Chris Buhl
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I've been playing a lot of FitS this past year, so I should know this, but apprently I don't. Or maybe it doesn't sit right with me, or something. As I'm reading the rules (and my regular opponent agrees with me), if a land unit or a replacement marker with a 4 or higher TP factor moves by sea transport, it is invulnerable to submarines. As we see the damage rules, it can only be targeted by 1 sub, and a single hit isn't enough to flip it, so it cannot be damaged by a sub. Is this correct?
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Forest Green Hobbit
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I ask the same question with Chris. It seems that hitting a 4 step or higher trnasport with sub is only useful to reduce Jpanas tansport level or if you also have air to hope and hit the tansports too.
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Chris Buhl
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Tom Good wrote:
I ask the same question with Chris. It seems that hitting a 4 step or higher trnasport with sub is only useful to reduce Jpanas tansport level or if you also have air to hope and hit the tansports too.


Tom is my opponent of record in this one.
 
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Donald Walsh
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You may want to check out the ConSimWorld forum for this game and see if the answer is there, or ask again there. Lots of experienced players and Adam Starkweather contribute to that board...
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Eddy del Rio
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havoc110 wrote:
You may want to check out the ConSimWorld forum for this game and see if the answer is there, or ask again there. Lots of experienced players and Adam Starkweather contribute to that board...
And then come back and share on BGG.cool
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Donald Walsh
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Quote:
Gerald Maus - Jan 26, 2013 7:47 pm (#5569 Total: 5570)

must land/air units be part of a naval task force to move operationally? or can they move operationally on their own?




Jim Eliason - Jan 26, 2013 10:57 pm (#5570 Total: 5570)



They can move on their own. However, if landing at a contested or enemy base, you have to establish sea control with a naval TF. That TF doesn't have to be the same one with the air/land unit. An air/land unit is very vulnerable to air strikes and sub attacks, but often an army can move alone without worrying about taking 4 hits from enemy air/subs. Attacking Japanese armies moving this way is a good way to decrease the merchant pool.


This was just posted on CSW. It is related, and may answer your question outright...
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So a full strength 4 unit hit by a sub will be flipped if it takes 1 more hit from an airstrike.

Similarly, an 8 strength unit would need at least 4 hits from subs/airstrikes to flip it.

Also, damage from subs is not applied until end of airstrike phase (rule 12.2.3)
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Forest Green Hobbit
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havoc110 wrote:
So a full strength 4 unit hit by a sub will be flipped if it takes 1 more hit from an airstrike.


I agree. A 4 strength transport is immune to damage from a sub without air. Sub might hit the Japanese merchantman and transport level, but the 4 strength transport will always be eligible to land given no enemy friendly [oops] sea control.
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Chris Buhl
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It seems as if Jim's answer above (and I've lost a game to Jim so I know he's reliable) answers the overall theme of my question, which wasn't all that well presented in my initial post. What's the deal with troop transports sailing around unescorted, who would have done that in a combat zone? I'm guessing that at this scale, the transports aren't completely unescorted, they just don't have enough naval escort to represent one of the DD counters in the game. The US can afford that without breaking too much of sweat. For the Japanese, they have to balance the oil use vs. the increased chances for the US to pick away at their transports.
 
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FWIW, Adam Starkweather just answered a question I had in less than a day over on CSW. Even if you just had a thematic question like the one above, he could probably explain the logic behind it.
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fatgreta wrote:
I've been playing a lot of FitS this past year, so I should know this, but apprently I don't. Or maybe it doesn't sit right with me, or something. As I'm reading the rules (and my regular opponent agrees with me), if a land unit or a replacement marker with a 4 or higher TP factor moves by sea transport, it is invulnerable to submarines. As we see the damage rules, it can only be targeted by 1 sub, and a single hit isn't enough to flip it, so it cannot be damaged by a sub. Is this correct?


Firstly you have to have sea control, so they're not completely unescorted (9.2.3 italicised text). Second yes, a sub alone cannot stop a 4 or stronger unit getting through but it will kill a merchant points.
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CountBrass wrote:
Firstly you have to have sea control, ....

Right, and the naval units for sea control can be from another Task Force, not necessarily escorting the transport TF.

Non rules comment: When no enemy air is present, a 2 strength transport mission is a complete failure with 1 sub hit, wheras a 4 strength transport is invulnerable and sub hit has no effect on ground combat. It's a stark disparity in the ability of larger tansports to be invulnerable to subs. One idea I might playtest is to consider allowing more subs to attack larger transport TFs. From an intuiative viewpoint, if a 2 strength (small convoy) needs DD escort to ward off subs, would not a larger convoy not require more DD escorts? Just seems subs should have pretty happy hunting with a very large 8 strength transport convoy sailing witouh and DD escorts. And if the ASW is built into the 8, why not the 2 in proportion? Just a thought.
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Jim Eliason
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I think everyone's got this right. Subs in the Pacific didn't operate in "wolf packs" as far as I know. One or two subs attacking a small invasion force could decimate it and prevent an effective landing. Sinking the same number of transports (then running out of torpedoes) in a major operation would not cause the mission to fail. The only problem I have with the rule is that sub/air hits on transports at sea don't carry over to ground combat.
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