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Subject: TheisMagle vs Immortal: Sorting out rules rss

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Jeff Long
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Saskatchewan
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This is a thread for settling on rules for the Road to Legend game between myself (The_Immortal) and Theis Magle.

I presume that unless otherwise stated, we are using all official rules from all expansions up to and including the final Descent 1st Edition FAQ from FFG.

In Theis' previous game, the following house rules were used:

------------

1) We'll use SoB final encounter rules giving wounds for the campaign total (1 per 4CP for heroes and 2 for 1CP for the OL)

a. The overlord removes all monsters other than the Avatar
from the board, discards all of his Overlord cards, and puts the
Overlord deck away. If playing with feat cards, the heroes
discard all of their feat cards as well.

b. Add the conquest tokens that the heroes have collected since
entering the Overlord’s Keep to their previous total conquest
tokens. Each hero’s maximum wounds are increased by +1 for
every 4 conquest tokens the heroes have collected since the
beginning of the campaign. Each hero is then restored to full
health and fatigue.

c. Add the conquest tokens that the overlord has gained since
the heroes entered the Overlord’s Keep to his previous total
conquest tokens. The Avatar’s maximum wounds are increased
by +2 for every conquest token the overlord has collected since
the start of the campaign.

2) Feat cards will be used but all those which require conditional orders will be removed. There would be dobble of each cards, because you should not get Sweeping Blow every turn you drew a feat The list are:

Combat Feats
Lunge
Hurry
Lunge
Second Wind
Follow Through
Hurry
Follow Through
Killing Blow
Sweeping Blow
Follow Through

Subterfuge Feats
Hustle
Disarm
Shooting for Distance
Hustle
Hustle
Shooting for Distance
Chink in the Armor
Disarm
Foiled Plans
Shooting for Distance
Foiled Plans
Second Wind

Wizardry Feats
We Are Not Afraid
Sparks of Pain
Carried By Air
Magi Madness
Focus
Flaming Fury
Sparks of Pain
We Are Not Afraid
Carried By Air
Focus
Focus
We Are Not Afraid


---------------

I agree with those rules if Theis would like to continue to use them. I would also like to strongly suggest the following:

Dungeons/Encounters
Use dungeon cards from both RtL and SoB
The dungeon deck is never reshuffled (unless it runs out)
The encounter deck is never reshuffled (unless it runs out)
The encounter-LOCATION deck is always reshuffled before any use

Secret Master Training
Use Sea-of-Blood Secret Master training tokens (e.g. the Fatigue upgrade is only +1 Fatigue instead of +2)

Heroes
Ban Zyla
Use Sea-of-Blood Nanok (e.g. his armor is (0 + MeleeTrait) instead of (2 + MeleeTrait)
No Promotional Heroes

Avatars
Ban the Demon Prince (FAR better than any other Avatar in my opinion)


------------

Once we settle on these rules, we can begin the EPIC CONFRONTATION!

For Great Justice!!
 
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Theis Magle
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Hi Jeff

Realy looking forward to this game.

Secret Master Training
I don't have SOB. So I don't know how they are. But I realy think we should stick to the normal RtL rule. Fatigue is powerfull, but you are limit to a total of 24 fatigue, so that limit is reach fast.

Heroes
Normaly I have a problem banding anything. Zyla is very strong no doubt about it. She also has her weakness. 8 life, 1 in melee,range,magic and a runner on only 4 speed. The flying thing is "just" accrobat (I know it is strong). Ghost also make her strong (Robe becomes very powerfull armor on her). I think the biggest problem with her is she only cost 1 CT. I would say, she should cost 2 (maybe even 3), then there where no problem with her. But I have just played a long game where Zyla was one of my hero, so lets not use her in this game. (I make a reroll if I get Zyla)

Nanok ability is strong, but not over power. He has weakness in 2 tread and it takes time before he get those extra armor (and do you focus on armor at first you lose a good skill pick in the beginning of the game). So he is a slow starter, and you can not have many of them in your party, because Copper is maybe the hardest time in dungeon. When Nanok get realy strong every party will almost be a very strong party. SOB rule just make him to weak to ever been picked. I say he stay as he is.

No promotional hero is ok

Avatars
I don't have that much experience with the Metagame to say if Demon Priest is to broken and a obviouse pick every time. Corbon has and idea, that how the hero party look is making a special avatar the better pick. I don't think we should bane any Avatar, but not add Avatar not include in RtL.
 
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Theis Magle
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I have a few more houserule, how strict we be with small errors and agrement on how to roll-back the game, because in PBF there will be mistake! Good to have a idea of how we solve them, before standing in the situation.

First a few more house rule:

If heroes are starting to make suicide, the OL can say he will not have the CT from the dead heroes (it maybe sound stupid, but if you almost winning with a plot, the heroes can actually force the finalbattle by commiting endless suicide).

Mayne of the other group has improved hero drawing. I say I draw only 4*3 heroes as RtL rule say. If it becomes a very bad party mix. I get one muligan so remove 1 pile of 3 heroes and drew 3 new. (very bad party I believe we would both see. If there is trouble we ask Corbon to give his oppinion)

In PBF there will be error and interupt that force the game to be rolled back. We have to fine a solution on this. I think keeping the dice role as much as posible work best. But not carry dice role from Heroes turn to OL turn or to a new week.

Error with dice: if you roll to few dice. The first count and you ADD the dice you need. If you roll to many. The dice conunt from the left till the rigth untill you have the right amount of dice. Rest is ignored. If you role a wrong color it is ignored and reroled with the rigth color (even if a miss or a black insted of a silver)

It is easy to make small mistake in PBF. E.G If i write my hero move 2*w and attack. But the monster was 2*e. Hardcore rulling is a miss, but I have the Best expirence if both player a large on rule part. Also i your Razorwing is Soar and you move to a hero and attack. I will not say, you miss because you did not annonce that you swapdown first. General rule is: if it is posible to fix a mistake easy (like use a extra fatigue to move or annonce a swapdown) it is ok, if it fix a move that does not give any meaning (stand 2 hex away and attack shadowcloak as a exampel)

 
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Theis Magle
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I know Corbon would disagree, with my "keep the dice as much as posible". We have had many argument about it. We still have. I respect Corbon. He know a lot about this game and have much more experience than me. But IMO it is a matter of believes and what feels right. When you don't have any experience with PBF. I would strongly hope we could play it like this. If you found out in the game, that it don't work, we go on to every roll after a interuption should be re-roll or something in between.

You might wounder, whats the big thing about that, and why do he not argue for his point. It is complex and I have just used 2 hour making my case to Corbon. I will not try to open the discussion in here as well. It would not be a easy job when you have no expirence with PBF to explain why we see it differently. So I stop here.

@Corbon I know it would be hard for you not to comment on this. Please respect that we start out with "keep the dice". You could see it as a experiment, where you could prove me wrong . If you see the problem in a specifik situation in this thread, please let me know!
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Jeff Long
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Hi Theis,

Given that you don't have SoB, are you okay with using the dungeon levels from SoB (I do have them)? I think in general they are actually better designed and a little more fun than the RtL ones, but it's up to you, since you don't own that expansion.

Secret Master Training
I am okay with playing Secret Master training as is, if indeed the total Fatigue of the hero party is limited to 24. I can't remember if they specified it in the final FAQ or not, but for a long time it was unclear if the fatigue tokens were meant to be a "hard limit" on how much fatigue the whole party could have.

Heroes

I strongly disagree that Nanok is not overpowered. I think he is actually at his STRONGEST in Copper level, because you can super-charge his armor to 7 (8 with Ring of Protection, and 9!! with Enduring) such that no Copper monster and very few Silver monsters can even hurt him with a maximum roll. No other Hero can have armor like this without Gold treasures (and those that can only have 8 HP, unlike Nanok who has 16). Dungeons can easily be won by sending him in by himself while the other heroes stay in town. This is a VERY effective and VERY un-fun way to play and thus why I favor changing (or just banning) him.

However, in any case of house rules, if the two of us disagree, then we should of course default to the printed rules. I've made my case here, if you still want to use him as-is, then I leave the final decision in your hands.

Avatars
If you insist, we will not ban Avatars. I only wanted to do so because I didn't really want to play the Demon Prince, but feel that to play my best, I have to choose him. If we ever have a second game, I will argue more strenuously to ban him then, so I don't have to play him twice in a row.

-Jeff
 
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Theis Magle
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You forgot something for my previous game. We do not play with SOB dungeon and SOB rumor. I found out later, that some thing they are need, because they are more "balance". I don't have the game, so I can not make the map with SOB dungeon

What do you think. Is it ok to play only the normal dungeon (RtL and TOI)?

As I told you before. I will be away for this weekend. Maybe a few shot posted from my phone, but the hero draws will be late sunday.

I will be epic!
 
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Jeff Long
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Quote:
I have a few more houserule, how strict we be with small errors and agrement on how to roll-back the game, because in PBF there will be mistake! Good to have a idea of how we solve them, before standing in the situation.

First a few more house rule:

If heroes are starting to make suicide, the OL can say he will not have the CT from the dead heroes (it maybe sound stupid, but if you almost winning with a plot, the heroes can actually force the finalbattle by commiting endless suicide).


I agree. In fact, this is already in my own collection of slightly more extensive house-rules that I prefer using for face-to-face games.

Quote:

Mayne of the other group has improved hero drawing. I say I draw only 4*3 heroes as RtL rule say. If it becomes a very bad party mix. I get one muligan so remove 1 pile of 3 heroes and drew 3 new. (very bad party I believe we would both see. If there is trouble we ask Corbon to give his oppinion)


I agree. Though I don't think I've EVER seen the normal 4*3 system generate a "very bad" party.

Quote:

In PBF there will be error and interupt that force the game to be rolled back. We have to fine a solution on this. I think keeping the dice role as much as posible work best. But not carry dice role from Heroes turn to OL turn or to a new week.


I've seen a few of your debates with Corbon on this. I have no strong opinion, and you obviously do, so I agree to do it your way.

Quote:

Error with dice: if you roll to few dice. The first count and you ADD the dice you need. If you roll to many. The dice conunt from the left till the rigth untill you have the right amount of dice. Rest is ignored. If you role a wrong color it is ignored and reroled with the rigth color (even if a miss or a black insted of a silver)

It is easy to make small mistake in PBF. E.G If i write my hero move 2*w and attack. But the monster was 2*e. Hardcore rulling is a miss, but I have the Best expirence if both player a large on rule part. Also i your Razorwing is Soar and you move to a hero and attack. I will not say, you miss because you did not annonce that you swapdown first. General rule is: if it is posible to fix a mistake easy (like use a extra fatigue to move or annonce a swapdown) it is ok, if it fix a move that does not give any meaning (stand 2 hex away and attack shadowcloak as a exampel)


Agreed to both.
 
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Jeff Long
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TheisMagle wrote:
You forgot something for my previous game. We do not play with SOB dungeon and SOB rumor. I found out later, that some thing they are need, because they are more "balance". I don't have the game, so I can not make the map with SOB dungeon

What do you think. Is it ok to play only the normal dungeon (RtL and TOI)?



Okay. RtL + ToI dungeons only. We should still have enough that we never need to replay a dungeon (you are okay with not reshuffling the dungeon deck, yes?)

Quote:

As I told you before. I will be away for this weekend. Maybe a few shot posted from my phone, but the hero draws will be late sunday.


No problem; I am busy trying to play an entire Descent: 2nd Edition campaign all day tomorrow anyway. ; >

Quote:


I will be epic!


I don't know if I can agree to make that a rule.
 
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Theis Magle
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The_Immortal wrote:
Hi Theis,

Given that you don't have SoB, are you okay with using the dungeon levels from SoB (I do have them)? I think in general they are actually better designed and a little more fun than the RtL ones, but it's up to you, since you don't own that expansion.

Secret Master Training
I am okay with playing Secret Master training as is, if indeed the total Fatigue of the hero party is limited to 24. I can't remember if they specified it in the final FAQ or not, but for a long time it was unclear if the fatigue tokens were meant to be a "hard limit" on how much fatigue the whole party could have.

Heroes

I strongly disagree that Nanok is not overpowered. I think he is actually at his STRONGEST in Copper level, because you can super-charge his armor to 7 (8 with Ring of Protection, and 9!! with Enduring) such that no Copper monster and very few Silver monsters can even hurt him with a maximum roll. No other Hero can have armor like this without Gold treasures (and those that can only have 8 HP, unlike Nanok who has 16). Dungeons can easily be won by sending him in by himself while the other heroes stay in town. This is a VERY effective and VERY un-fun way to play and thus why I favor changing (or just banning) him.

However, in any case of house rules, if the two of us disagree, then we should of course default to the printed rules. I've made my case here, if you still want to use him as-is, then I leave the final decision in your hands.

Avatars
If you insist, we will not ban Avatars. I only wanted to do so because I didn't really want to play the Demon Prince, but feel that to play my best, I have to choose him. If we ever have a second game, I will argue more strenuously to ban him then, so I don't have to play him twice in a row.

-Jeff

24 fatigue as a limit.

Nanok cost 45 XP to get 7 armor. 8 with Ring and 15 XP (if not start skill) give Enduring to 9. So it would take time and 60 XP, but yes that is not as hard and as you say even silvermonsters has a very hard time doing 10 damage. I never thought about sending Nanok down allow. If that would work (he can manage to move around doing all the pickup gold and killing fast enought to get to the boss before OL have been through his deck twice (it ends the dungeon)) - that would realy be boring.

I am not so much to because the rule say so. I am in the best argument win. I will like to hear from some of the other experience player, how they see Nanok. What there experience is with putting Nanok down alone, while the rest of the party is at the Inn drinking beer. I of course new, that you could make him on armor 7 fast, but even at armor 6 he would stop being the target on Copper. But I have not thought about sending him in alone as almost unhurteble beast. His gold is to be unhurteble, but if he can do the job by himself. I think a band should be in its right place. Hope some can argue aginst it.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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Regarding SoB dugeons/rumours - if you guys want to include then I could make up the first shot as/when required and THeismagle can copy it thereafter.
It may slow you down a little on occasion though.

I do agree that the SoB dungeons ae often better designed and more fun, sometimes 'frustratingly' so!

Regarding fatigue, yes fatigue tokens are formally a hard limit now, so 24 only. Also, I belive that the 'get all the fatigue you can' paradigm is a strategic error unless you have a very, very tough party (which usually means other major weaknesses) and I think Ive shown hints of that in some of my games. Spider Queen will eat fatigued-up heroes alive.

Regarding Avatars, Spider Queen is very very close to as strong as Demon Prince. So I don't think you should be worried too much about that. OTOH, she's getting a lot of face time lately.
If you are prepared to go out there a bit (a lot?) there are several custom avatars on this thread in the old FFG forum. Some need some work adjusting, and I'm not sure if they have the Final Battle prepared or not (the Kobold King that I am using vs Andrew does, maybe not any of the others, I don't know), but there are some interesting options there.

Regarding Nanok, you could split the difference. I too think SoB Nanok is just too weak to select. How good he might be by mid silver is much less important than how good he is for the first 100CT of the campaing IMO.

Regarding Zyla, I'd rather have Astarra as a hero player. Just don't pick a humanoid avatar if Zyla is picked by the heroes. Eldritch eat her alive, and beasts have counters and can still hurt her.

But if you guys are happy, its all yours.
 
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duhtch
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Corbon said pretty much everything I was going to say.

As a side note to secret master training, that is why I used the house rule of an additional option of +2W and +1F.

SoB levels are not only more balance, but they also include monster selections from ToI, and I think are more fun to play (the dungeons are have a little bit more bite to them).

The thing about Hero's being OP'ed, I just don't get. The OL gets to pick after the hero team is made. Morthai (Theis' last opponent) made a very poor choice going with a Human based Avatar when Zyla was picked. Same thing with Nanok, if the hero team is just going to run one guy through the dungeon, then have at it. Pick the Spider Queen then, and trap the living daylights out of him.

Don't ban Avatars. If you don't want to play the Demon Prince, just don't play him. There is no reason to ban him. If you are playing against an upper tier opponent, then the Demon Prince is obviously a feather to have in your cap.
 
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Jeff Long
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Regarding "Nanok plays the dungeon alone" - give him a knockback weapon and/or Acrobat, he doesn't need much help to clear entire dungeons, and it doesn't take that much time. Even as Spider Queen, the OL needs to draw every direct-damage trap in the deck to kill him ONCE. That's a very cheap cost for the heroes to pay to clear an entire dungeon.

And of course, even a super-armored Nanok doesn't HAVE to do this EVERY single dungeon (although he can and will do it much of the time). Simply having the option to do it makes him, in my opinion, far more powerful than any other hero by a very large degree.

Note that I'm not claiming Nanok makes the heroes unbeatable. Only that:

a) He's far better than any other hero and therefore makes the game less fun by eliminating dilemmas.

b) Using him optimally leads to a very boring playstyle. And I expect my opponents to play as optimally as they can, so if playing well leads to a boring style, it's the game's fault, not the player's.

As for SoB Nanok, I suggested that because it's "official." I don't know if it's actually a super-nicely balanced version of him. There's any number of other ways to change him, I just firmly believe he needs SOME change.

But again, I've made my case. I leave the final decision to Theis.
 
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Theis Magle
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Using him optimally leads to a very boring playstyle. And I expect my opponents to play as optimally as they can, so if playing well leads to a boring style, it's the game's fault, not the player's.

I realy feel we "click" together in terms of how we approach a game. Also showed in the house rule - OL can refurce to get CT from hero killing each other. (That I have said in here a lot, but not getting much understanding for my view).

You adding a new skill acrobat, so now we close to silver and OL can have 1 type of goldmonsters. But still I total understand your point, my problem is, that I have never played a Nanok armor 9 before. So I don't know if there is any counterplay aginst it? If no one can present a fair counter play (work regulary, not based on a combination of 3-4 OL card and a single type of monster) - then it should be band.

PBF is slow and therefore I don't have a problem waiting a few days to here other opinion. I am thinking is there any other heroes you can build to a unbeatabel figthing machine? I had Landrec the Wise with Spiritwalker and Prodegy, Inner Fire. He alone clear the dungeon. So many dungeon (all 3 level) was clear without a single hero killed. Sometimes they was almost no attack from monsters. I see Spiritwalker as close to brokken, but agin I really don't like to bane anything except if is VERY obvious or I playtested it alot.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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TheisMagle wrote:
Using him optimally leads to a very boring playstyle. And I expect my opponents to play as optimally as they can, so if playing well leads to a boring style, it's the game's fault, not the player's.

I realy feel we "click" together in terms of how we approach a game. Also showed in the house rule - OL can refurce to get CT from hero killing each other. (That I have said in here a lot, but not getting much understanding for my view).

You adding a new skill acrobat, so now we close to silver and OL can have 1 type of goldmonsters. But still I total understand your point, my problem is, that I have never played a Nanok armor 9 before. So I don't know if there is any counterplay aginst it? If no one can present a fair counter play (work regulary, not based on a combination of 3-4 OL card and a single type of monster) - then it should be band.

PBF is slow and therefore I don't have a problem waiting a few days to here other opinion. I am thinking is there any other heroes you can build to a unbeatabel figthing machine? I had Landrec the Wise with Spiritwalker and Prodegy, Inner Fire. He alone clear the dungeon. So many dungeon (all 3 level) was clear without a single hero killed. Sometimes they was almost no attack from monsters. I see Spiritwalker as close to brokken, but agin I really don't like to bane anything except if is VERY obvious or I playtested it alot.


There are a wide variety of potentially 'broken' heroes. Of all sorts. It takes time to develop them, and its the OL job to make that development difficult, and costly. And in the end, the OL still has tools to deal with them, especially in Lt encounters
 
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Jeff Long
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TheisMagle wrote:

You adding a new skill acrobat, so now we close to silver and OL can have 1 type of goldmonsters. But still I total understand your point, my problem is, that I have never played a Nanok armor 9 before. So I don't know if there is any counterplay aginst it? If no one can present a fair counter play (work regulary, not based on a combination of 3-4 OL card and a single type of monster) - then it should be band.


True enough that I mentioned an extra skill; however in reality, the Enduring skill is kind of unnecessary; 8 armor (full melee traits + Ring of P) is already enough to make him almost invulnerable at Copper level (for example, maximum damage of SILVER skeleton is exactly 8, so they can't hurt him). Copper monsters in general do even less damage than "vanilla" Descent monsters did, so even 6 armor can be tough to deal with, 8 is night impossible. Enduring is great if he starts with it, but it's not essential. He even draws a Green skill (and could opt to draw one more as his 'bonus) so he might start with Acrobat as well. There are other skills that can serve as a "weak substitute" for Acrobat as well, like Shadow Soul. Overall, Nanok just really wasn't balanced for an Advanced Campaign (in Vanilla descent, buying extra traits is rare) and I feel there's too many ways for him to end up in a boring and overpowered situation.

Quote:

PBF is slow and therefore I don't have a problem waiting a few days to here other opinion. I am thinking is there any other heroes you can build to a unbeatabel figthing machine? I had Landrec the Wise with Spiritwalker and Prodegy, Inner Fire. He alone clear the dungeon. So many dungeon (all 3 level) was clear without a single hero killed. Sometimes they was almost no attack from monsters. I see Spiritwalker as close to brokken, but agin I really don't like to bane anything except if is VERY obvious or I playtested it alot.


Just to be sure, you're aware that in the finalized FAQ, the range of Spiritwalker was reduced from 10 to 5, yes? A lot of people did think it was too strong at range 10.

But the thing about Landrec and any other hero that relies on attacking to be "overpowered" is that at least they might miss. Two Xs in a row and the Overlord can actually DO something. Against an 8-or-9 armor Nanok, there's often nothing that can be done no matter the dice. A HUGE number of monsters cap out at 8 or 9 damage (Red+Green+Black for example is max 8). OL just has to hope for lots of levels with Master Naga as the boss.
 
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Theis Magle
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Zyla
As Corbon, I don't think Zyla is as brokken as people make her. I Astarra is close, but my pick for a runner would be Zyla, but thats mainly because of only 1 CT cost. So my reason for accepting a bane is only based on The fact, that I have just played with her.

SOB dungeon
Jeff should we accept Corbons generous off to make those dungeon and extra rumor? (Corbon that mean we also need word for word what The dungeon say - speciel and leader - thats a lot of work, but maybe you already have done that.)

Nanok

Wise word for Corbon, her is a few more:

An armour 9 Nanok takes a while to build and the OL can use treachery options like critical strike, and armour-ignoring traps etc, not to mention delaying options like ice, grapple etc, which are not necessarily easy for him to break past - with emphasis on armour and movement he won't have real combat skills. The short summary is that yes, people have dealt with that (not me - we've never drawn Nanok in a campaign).

If you can not kill him slow him down. Web is normaly a good way, but with 5 extra Black dice to lose The web it is not The way to go. Grapple work fine, but Nanok in killing range of The grappler. Stun would a great weapon. Take out 1 action for a lonely hero would just slow him so much, that he has to Call for help from his friends. Now spawn card Lone Medusa is a key OL card, and with treachery Death on the Wing and Mother Medussa.

I really would like to explore how a OL can counter Nanok alone in The dungeon (I think it is posible), but it has not to be in this game. Actually If I should explor it, I would like to be The OL in that game. If is showed that Nanok was to strong here is a house rule I like more than SOB (could count for all heroes) Armor 7 after 3. Attack in a OL turn 4. Attack get + 1 damage 5. Attack +2 damage 6. A + 3 D and so on. Armor 8 after 2. Attack in a OL turn 3. Attack + 1 damage, 4. Attack + 2 damage, 5.... Armor 9 after 1. Attack in a OL turn 2. Attack get +1 damage, 3. Attack + 2 damage....
It nedfor course some playtesting.

With 2 very strong heroes as banned, that weaken my pool of heroes. Should I be compensated in any way? Drawing 5*3 hero discarding one pile or in another way?

Conclusion: Zyla and Nanok is banned. We have 2 things not clear. Any compensation for The banned heroes? Should we use SOB dungeon/rumors (slow us a little, but duhtch said they where more balanced (believe that mean more in favor of OL?))
 
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Jeff Long
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TheisMagle wrote:
Zyla
As Corbon, I don't think Zyla is as brokken as people make her. I Astarra is close, but my pick for a runner would be Zyla, but thats mainly because of only 1 CT cost. So my reason for accepting a bane is only based on The fact, that I have just played with her.


I agree that the 1 CT cost is a big reason for her strength. Obviously it would be possible to house-rule her to something reasonable, but I figured a ban was simpler to suggest, especially as you just played her.

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SOB dungeon
Jeff should we accept Corbons generous off to make those dungeon and extra rumor? (Corbon that mean we also need word for word what The dungeon say - speciel and leader - thats a lot of work, but maybe you already have done that.)


I haven't done it before, but I should be able to make the SoB dungeons also. I'm sure the map-making program isn't THAT hard to use is it?

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Nanok

Wise word for Corbon, her is a few more:

An armour 9 Nanok takes a while to build and the OL can use treachery options like critical strike, and armour-ignoring traps etc, not to mention delaying options like ice, grapple etc, which are not necessarily easy for him to break past - with emphasis on armour and movement he won't have real combat skills. The short summary is that yes, people have dealt with that (not me - we've never drawn Nanok in a campaign).

If you can not kill him slow him down. Web is normaly a good way, but with 5 extra Black dice to lose The web it is not The way to go. Grapple work fine, but Nanok in killing range of The grappler. Stun would a great weapon. Take out 1 action for a lonely hero would just slow him so much, that he has to Call for help from his friends. Now spawn card Lone Medusa is a key OL card, and with treachery Death on the Wing and Mother Medussa.


I agree stun is one of the best options (although by itself, still not useful, since if you still can't hurt him, there's not much point). But this is yet another reason why I don't like him, since the best option against him involves bogging the game down even MORE, leading to a very slow, boring game.

There's not much worse than several turns in a row where Nanok trundles forward 4 spaces, OL attacks him with 15 monsters, does no damage but stuns with a master Razorwing, rinse and repeat.

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I really would like to explore how a OL can counter Nanok alone in The dungeon (I think it is posible), but it has not to be in this game. Actually If I should explor it, I would like to be The OL in that game. If is showed that Nanok was to strong here is a house rule I like more than SOB (could count for all heroes) Armor 7 after 3. Attack in a OL turn 4. Attack get + 1 damage 5. Attack +2 damage 6. A + 3 D and so on. Armor 8 after 2. Attack in a OL turn 3. Attack + 1 damage, 4. Attack + 2 damage, 5.... Armor 9 after 1. Attack in a OL turn 2. Attack get +1 damage, 3. Attack + 2 damage....
It nedfor course some playtesting.


I would be happy to try this with you sometime. I agree that RtL has long needed something like this against high-armor characters, although this solution isn't super-elegant to keep track of. But I never came up with anything else that I really liked better.

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With 2 very strong heroes as banned, that weaken my pool of heroes. Should I be compensated in any way? Drawing 5*3 hero discarding one pile or in another way?

Conclusion: Zyla and Nanok is banned. We have 2 things not clear. Any compensation for The banned heroes? Should we use SOB dungeon/rumors (slow us a little, but duhtch said they where more balanced (believe that mean more in favor of OL?))


Since the ban was my suggestion, I am okay with 5*3 if you like. I think the SoB dungeons on the whole probably do favour the OL a little more than the basic RtL dungeons, but the more important thing is they make Humanoid upgrade (very weak in normal RtL) somewhat more reasonable for the OL, because there are is a better balance of monsters and many make it a little easier to spawn the Humanoids. So it just makes things a bit more interesting.
 
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Theis Magle
Denmark
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If Tahlia is slowed more than he will by simply doing all: the killing, picking up gold, chest, open doors, OL would run through his deck gain 3 CT. Next time 3 CT to OL one more time, and heroes are kick out of dungeon. When I played Landrec the Wise. Many of my dungeon, I did not lose 1 CT from a kill or a empty OL deck and I got all gold, chest and CT posible. That is not what Nanok would do.

So IMO now it is not a qustion about what is the "best" winning strategi, but you not like that strategi, because it is borring. That is as good a argument as that he is to brokken, so NP banneding it. If we not agree on something. I believe a good solution is, who feel most for there view. Clearly you don't like Nanok, so his out.

Leave the map making up to me. If there comes a time, where I am shoot in time you could take over. The easy thing is, that only one do a hole dungeon, but maybe in time we could do every 2..

Conclusion: Zyla, Nanok out, compensation 5*3 piles of heroes one pile is not used. SOB dungeon and rumor in with help from Corbon.

I have a lot other to do. I will draw my heroes tomorrow. Also give you time to a last commen before the role...
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Jeff Long
Canada
Saskatoon
Saskatchewan
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It sounds like we're settled on everything. Whenever you are ready to make your hero draw, you can make a new thread and the game can begin. I look forward to it!
 
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Jeff Long
Canada
Saskatoon
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I may have spoke too soon: one last thing.

If we are using the SoB dungeons, they modify the bonus HP/armor for bosses based on campaign level.

For example, "Bly is a Master Skeleton with 12 extra wounds and 1 extra armor per campaign level."

The original RtL dungeons do not do this.

We can of course just ignore this issue and just play each card as written, but that means that at Silver and Gold level, there will be a big difference in difficulty between RtL dungeon levels and SoB dungeon levels.

Of course, I don't think this will affect your Hero Draw very much, so you can still proceed with that whenever you're ready.

Thoughts?
 
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duhtch
United States
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Merrimac and I are playing a similar house rule about RtL dungeons for copper, silver and gold levels.
 
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Theis Magle
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duhtch wrote:
Merrimac and I are playing a similar house rule about RtL dungeons for copper, silver and gold levels.

You play with: A Card say leader +8 wounds + 2 armor. At Copper it has *0,5, Silver *1 and Gold *1,5. So Copper + 4 wounds + 1 armor, Silver +8 wounds +2 armor, Gold + 12 wounds + 3 armor. Copper FRU, Gold FRD (so if original + 1 armor. You have + 1 armor in Copper, Silver and Gold).

I don't like to add rules, that have not been playtested. Do you Corbon has any experience with this?

I can not say, why SOB do as they do, because I don't know the game. Does SOB play with RtL dungeons? Somehow SOB found it nessesary to give ekstra wounds and armor to silver and gold (in RtL the extra wounds and armor was only in monster upgrades). But if the use RtL dungeon, they would have made a way to adjust it, or say it does not need to be adjusted?

Going to bed. Heroes tomorrow. Looking forward to the game.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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TheisMagle wrote:
duhtch wrote:
Merrimac and I are playing a similar house rule about RtL dungeons for copper, silver and gold levels.

You play with: A Card say leader +8 wounds + 2 armor. At Copper it has *0,5, Silver *1 and Gold *1,5. So Copper + 4 wounds + 1 armor, Silver +8 wounds +2 armor, Gold + 12 wounds + 3 armor. Copper FRU, Gold FRD (so if original + 1 armor. You have + 1 armor in Copper, Silver and Gold).

I don't like to add rules, that have not been playtested. Do you Corbon has any experience with this?


no

Quote:
I can not say, why SOB do as they do, because I don't know the game. Does SOB play with RtL dungeons? Somehow SOB found it nessesary to give ekstra wounds and armor to silver and gold (in RtL the extra wounds and armor was only in monster upgrades). But if the use RtL dungeon, they would have made a way to adjust it, or say it does not need to be adjusted?


I believe the SoB bonuses are on avaerage smaller than the RtL bonuses.
 
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Theis Magle
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I put out a new post for our game.

I will comment SOB, RtL dungeonleader later...
 
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Retired Hurt

Brussels
Unspecified
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About Zyla : I like heroes with uncommon skills / looks, so I don't want her banned. Making her worth 2 CT will make her a strong hero, but not unbalanced. Same value as some other strong heroes like Astarra, Thorn, Landrec.

 
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