Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Fading Glory» Forums » General

Subject: Error with Leader Counter - Wellington & Blucher rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
LEUNG CHI KEUNG
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I received my copy today. and think that following two leaders are mixed up at the back of their counters

Wellington is in Prussian
and
Blucher is in British


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
The Herbie Nichols Project - Dr. Cyclops' Dream
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
erickleung wrote:
I received my copy today. and think that following two leaders are mixed up at the back of their counters

Wellington is in Prussian
and
Blucher is in British

Yes, everyone's is that way. For a listing of other such errors, see this thread: Clarifications & Errata
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Do I understand correctly that these various glitches appeared in the GMT versions but were not in the original VPG versions?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stig Morten
Norway
Kvernaland
flag msg tools
Thunder Alley: Crew Chief Expansion - Coming soon to Kickstarter!
badge
Evil lurks here!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
There are enough spare counters in the game to use those when Fog Of War is used with leaders and then replace Wellington and Blucher when they are revealed.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
The Herbie Nichols Project - Dr. Cyclops' Dream
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
Do I understand correctly that these various glitches appeared in the GMT versions but were not in the original VPG versions?

The ones on that thread are from the GMT version, and a significant number of them did not appear in the VPG versions. On the other hand, the version of Waterloo in Fading Glory is a 2nd edition, with what I understand to be improvements from the 1st edition VPG version, and I imagine there are other rules improvements in the other games as well. And of course the GMT version is a far superior physical presentation.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
The Herbie Nichols Project - Dr. Cyclops' Dream
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I had never purchased any of the Napoleon 20 games from VPG (I do own other VPG titles), but after doing the research decided that buying the GMT set was a no-brainer. It's disappointing that there are so many small errors, but I've played a bit and really, you don't even notice most of them. Even with the errors I think the GMT set is the way to go if you want to delve into Nappy 20.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Sphere wrote:
I had never purchased any of the Napoleon 20 games from VPG (I do own other VPG titles), but after doing the research decided that buying the GMT set was a no-brainer. It's disappointing that there are so many small errors, but I've played a bit and really, you don't even notice most of them. Even with the errors I think the GMT set is the way to go if you want to delve into Nappy 20.

As it turns out, I just received the VPG Waterloo 20 in the mail (and thought I'd check this forum as well, on the theory that rules clarifications might appear more often in the forum of this higher-profile edition - but it's starting to look like all the clarifications are GMT-specific...).

In any case, I'm looking forward to trying the game out!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lance McMillan
United States
Lakebay
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's worth noting that there are no leader counters in the VPG version of 'Waterloo 20' (or 'Borodino 20' and 'Smolensk 20' either). Those were added (along with the Fatigue markers) to the "Fading Glory" package very late in the development process. This was done at Alan Emrich's urging because he wanted to ensure that GMT's customers got access to all the "latest and greatest" developments we'd added to the series and wouldn't come away feeling that we'd somehow held out on them and that they'd have to re-buy the games from VPG later if they wanted all those "extra features." Unfortunately, adding those extra counters that late in the process meant that things were a bit rushed, so during proofreading the fact that the backs of Wellington and Blucher's counters were reversed was overlooked. Sorry about that -- but at least you got the leaders and fatigue markers, which weren't part of the original package at all.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Carey
United States
West Coast
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lancer4321 wrote:
This was done at Alan Emrich's Gene Billingsley's urging because he wanted to ensure that GMT's customers got access to all the "latest and greatest" developments we'd added to the series and wouldn't come away feeling that we'd somehow held out on them and that they'd have to re-buy the games from VPG later if they wanted all those "extra features."


Fixed.
3 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kim Meints
United States
Waterloo
Iowa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Whatever happened to the good old "Peel the Back Off" the wrong counters and gluing back onto the right ones.Thats the easiest fix since cardboard counters started until new ones are made.Many a game has them this way for me.And they look just as good as when punched out.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Emrich
United States
Irvine
California
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
"This was done at Alan Emrich's Gene Billingsley's urging"

No, Steve, that's not fixed. You weren't there, so please spare me the catty remark...

Fading Glory was a long time in gestation at GMT, as we all remember. During that time, VPG upgraded to Gold Banner publishing and when Danube 20 was produced, it got the full Gold Banner treatment, up to and including v3.0 rules and Leaders.

Gene and I spoke together, once at the CSW Expo where Danube 20 was debuted, and again by phone soon afterward (as I recall). The gist is that we BOTH agreed that getting the "latest, greatest" version of the game into Fading Glory was the right thing to do, and we agreed that it was not too late or anything, if we made an effort, to include it.

When the v3.0 rules were completed, GMT got them from us at a rush and Lance helped guide them into Fading Glory package before its release, right up to designing the Leader OOBs and set ups for all the different games. Lance is the Hero here -- what Gene and I wanted, Lance saw to it that it got done; and the guy who actually got it done is the Hero in my book! And since I did the communication with Lance, he might have assumed it all came from me (which, to him, it did, I suppose), but Gene and I hashed this out first.

So, cheap shotting me is wrong, Steve. I very much appreciate all you've done for VPG in the past, but I wanted to set the record straight since you decided to make a public point about this.

Alan Emrich
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lance McMillan
United States
Lakebay
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That pretty much echoes what I recall too, Alan. I remember the conversation pretty distinctly because it was the first time I'd ever met Gene. The three of us were gathered together in the foyer outside the gaming hall at CSW Expo, hashing out which v3.0 elements would be best to include in "Fading Glory," and it was definitely you who pushed for the inclusion of the leader rules in the package. After that discussion you and I sat down at one of the tables and sketched out plans for the prospective ratings for all the leaders that we'd need to retrofit onto all four of the games in the "Fading Glory" box -- I still have the paper with those notes on it.

What's curious is that I've actually got an old e-mail (dated 7/13/12) from Steve which seems to suggest he didn't want us to include leaders in "Fading Glory" at all -- here's the pertinent quote:

"Here's a concern that I have - changes are being implemented into an upcoming release that have not been tested. ...I can see the new Leader rules affecting play balance in SALAMANCA 20, when used (they're Optional)."

Fortunately, Steve eventually came around and agreed that including the leaders wouldn't have too significant an impact on game balance:

"I originally wanted a bit more tilted British-French play balance ratio anyway, and this should do it, if players choose to use the Optional Rule. We're good."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Carey
United States
West Coast
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Alan Emrich wrote:
So, cheap shotting me is wrong, Steve.


Wrong - GMT is too professional to come here to provide their perspective on all the little things that went wrong with FG, including your complete lack of oversight on the project (by your own admission) and your failure to provide the additional proofreading as promised - after I found over *50* errors in the VPG files as submitted - when I asked for more proofreading help in my email in early September.

Setting the record straight is entirely proper here, and I am more than willing to continue to do so in order for the players and customers to know the true story behind the game. Lance brought up the point in public (and I do understand his misperception), so I am the one actually setting the record straight and I have the email chain to prove it.

You don't get yet another Emrich-Free Pass here (once again), sorry.
4 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Carey
United States
West Coast
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Lance, I'm not going to reply to your comment as it is improper to quote private emails in a public form, I don't know what point you're trying to make anyway, and you are just too deeply entrenched in VPGtology.

I will note that Lance did a wonderful job developing FG, even after commenting to me that version 3.0 was dumped on him at the last moment, and without much support. As he also commented to me, he is not a very good proofreader nor should he have been expected to be under the rather difficult circumstances.

As one designer, I did my best to proofread at the tail end of the project - I caught over 50 errors, including wrong map setups, typos, wrong rules cross-references, map file errors, etc., but as we now see from the Errata & Clarification file, another two dozen or so mistakes still slipped through.

The game was delayed as a result, but those 50+ errors were fixed and I'm glad they were. I jumped in and started the E&C file here on BGG to take ownership of the project and to facilitate good gameplay. Now I wish that I hadn't as the end result is more VPG tidal-wave propaganda and lack of accountability, as usual.
6 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
stuart glanvville
United Kingdom
Sheffield
South Yorkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
as an outsider watching this squall blow up nicely, i've got to note that neither party is really doing either reputation any good here..
there's obviously some previous axes being ground here - strangely enough I was on the we must tell the emperor forum seeing if a gold banner upgrade would appear and that was teetering on the edge of this squabble too..

I must note - GMT is the name on the box, so I would have thought ultimate responsibility for the contents of the box which carries their name would reside with them, i'd have definitely thought the counter layout was their responsibility - and I note on a previous thread Rodger Mcgowan states this is your project Steve? However this seems a curious set up, so who knows what responsibility lies with whom, whoever proof read what, added in which rule, took what rule, said what to whom, maybe this isn't the place to air this - it would seem a case of too many chefs and not enough cooks tbh

All the glitches are minor and this argument simply threatens to detract from what an excellent set of 4 well thought out gems these games are.. which regardless of who published them first, are the result of a rather excellent game idea from Joseph Miranda.. that you 3 gents have then taken on further and refined and honed quite nicely.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Carey
United States
West Coast
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
StuDecay wrote:
...this is your project Steve?


Hi Stuart, the answer is "No" - FG was a VPG project, designed (3 of their reprints plus my original), developed (i.e., Lance), and playtested (they had an experienced team already in place) by them, and then licensed to GMT for production.

If you're referring to why my name pops up in each thread, it's simply because my last name comes up first in the alphabetical list of designers, and that's the name which BGG displays.
7 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lance McMillan
United States
Lakebay
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Steve Carey wrote:
Lance did a wonderful job developing FG, even after commenting to me that version 3.0 was dumped on him at the last moment, and without much support. As he also commented to me, he is not a very good proofreader nor should he have been expected to be under the rather difficult circumstances.


Thanks for the compliment, Steve. And yes, I've always acknowledged that I'm a simply *AWFUL* proofreader, and repeatedly pointed that out during the development process to anyone who'd listen. I'm fully aware of my shortcomings. Your assistance in helping to proof the rules and components, Steve, was greatly appreciated and definitely helped ensure that "Fading Glory" turned out as well as it did -- kudos.

As for being "deeply entrenched in VPGtology" I suppose that's to be expected: VPG brought me into the game design/development business to begin with, and everything just worked out wonderfully with them from the start. On the other hand, while all my dealings with GMT have been entirely cordial and professionally conducted, our working relationship never quite "clicked." That's probably my fault as I (foolishly, in retrospect) expected them to do things the same way VPG did, but of course they had their own processes -- ones which I (still) don't think I've quite figured out.

Regardless, while "Fading Glory" was an interesting project and I'd be more than happy to work with GMT again, I have to admit that I'm glad it's over. Whether GMT puts out a follow-on to "Fading Glory" is a decision that rests with others -- I'm not involved with or privy to VPG's business decisions. All I do (and all I want to do) is design and develop games. As far as I'm concerned, minor glitches aside, the fact that most folks seem to be content with the games they got in "Fading Glory" is good enough for me.

So, that said, I'm going to move on and continue working on new additions to the "Napoleonic 20" series. Next up: 'Rousse 20' (from the Russo-Turkish war of 1806-1812).
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
stuart glanvville
United Kingdom
Sheffield
South Yorkshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Steve Carey wrote:
StuDecay wrote:
...this is your project Steve?


Hi Stuart, the answer is "No" - FG was a VPG project, designed (3 of their reprints plus my original), developed (i.e., Lance), and playtested (they had an experienced team already in place) by them, and then licensed to GMT for production.

If you're referring to why my name pops up in each thread, it's simply because my last name comes up first in the alphabetical list of designers, and that's the name which BGG displays.


ah okay - there's a thread where the box art is shown and it is referred to as your project by Mr MacGowan, my apologies..
Like I said, this is quite an odd project licensing wise and thus culpability wise (if there's any real need to apportion any -which I don't think there is), but a quick FAQ and all is sorted - the product is still a good one.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Wickes
United Kingdom
London
Greater London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


I don't think there's any need to fight here.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lance McMillan
United States
Lakebay
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We're grognards -- what's the point of it all if we're not fighting? If I wanted "peace, love, and understanding" I'd be playing 'My Little Pony.' Get with the program, man!

6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Wickes
United Kingdom
London
Greater London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, if you want me to start grumbling I might mention the thin yet significant gap in my library for the polythene bags filled with Lützen 20, Bautzen 20 and a Germany 20 campaign folder... Russo-Turkish-Schmerkish... I won't be happy till I get another 'Ney does something Stupid' event card in my hand, y'hear? devil

But hey, I'm all about the peace and love... well done to everyone involved in Fading Glory!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kim Meints
United States
Waterloo
Iowa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LoL,Well I'm looking at a Bautzen20 thats been waiting for a polythene bag/box for 4 years now along with 4 others.

Lance is trying to get the Germany20 Campaign link finished up besides all the other projects he's involved in.I did offer to clone him.

The Russo-Turkish game is going well in playtesting.I don't know how far along Andy is with his Lutzen

We're getting there.slowly but getting there.



2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lance McMillan
United States
Lakebay
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
We're working up to those, David. Be patient. Campaign rules for "Germany 20" are nearly done, just have to get the way units feed into the final confrontation at Leipzig to work properly at the "extreme" ends of the outcome spectrum.

Plan right now is to also do a similar three game campaign package on the spring battles (Leutzen, Bautzen and an almost-happened-but-didn't third battle) with designs by three different designers (Kim Meints, Jack Gill, and Andreas Gebhardt).

The Russo-Turkish game got inserted into the schedule because it was submitted by a first time designer, and at VPG we always try to help out new designers by giving them their first opportunity to show their talents. Simply put, new guys always get head of the line privledges.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Wickes
United Kingdom
London
Greater London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Gentlemen, please - in your own time! I've got plenty to be playing (thanks to Kim) - I did not mean to sound so, um, demanding. Lance, I can only imagine what it's like trying to weave together Germany 20, and it is of course right and proper that new designers get some preferential treatment; I look forward to Rousse 20.

Please take my impatience as simple tribute to the fun I've had with each of your games over the last few years.

Right - off to Wagram!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kim Meints
United States
Waterloo
Iowa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks to Me?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.