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Subject: Palace and petitioning rss

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Dian
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There was a situation where one guy had a bunch of cards (10+) and he already has a Palace (which allows you to put as many cards down when playing. He wanted to put down almost all his cards by petitioning to lead something since he also has Sewer.

Is this allowed? We weren't sure whether you can use petition in combination with Palace.
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Jonathan C
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dmk11 wrote:
There was a situation where one guy had a bunch of cards (10+) and he already has a Palace (which allows you to put as many cards down when playing. He wanted to put down almost all his cards by petitioning to lead something since he also has Sewer.

Is this allowed? We weren't sure whether you can use petition in combination with Palace.


We would allow this in our games.
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Chad Miller
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My copy of the Palace says may play multiple cards of the same role. Not play the same role multiple times. The rule on petitioning in my rulebook says you may petition to lead or follow, not to perform any arbitrary action that would use a role card. So I would say it's not supported by the rules (at least, not in my IV edition).
 
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Jonathan C
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SlebRittie wrote:
My copy of the Palace says may play multiple cards of the same role. Not play the same role multiple times. The rule on petitioning in my rulebook says you may petition to lead or follow, not to perform any arbitrary action that would use a role card. So I would say it's not supported by the rules (at least, not in my IV edition).


Let's use the I.V. text from Palace for reference:

Quote:
"May play multiple cards of the same role in order to perform additional actions."


Let's say you want to Lead or Follow Craftsman, and you have one craftsman card in hand, but three additional rubble, and no Craftsman clients. Using the Palace, you may Lead or Follow with all four cards and take two Craftsman actions. Then if you additionally have Sewer built, these may move to your stockpile after you perform your actions, instead of discarding to them to the pool.

Edit: the rules clearly indicate "petitioning" effectively turns the cards used in the petition to a Jack. Using a Jack for an additional action using Palace is clearly supported by the rules--it is even given in the example.
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Chad Miller
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I see the argument that you could play 3 Laborer to petition, then 1 Craftsman for Palace to craft twice, so I would allow it. I took OP's question to be "Can I petition with 3 Laborer, then also petition with 3 Patron, to craft twice using Palace?" which I would not allow for the reasons I gave. Basically I'm arguing that only the initial action can be a petition, not the Palace actions.
 
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Jonathan C
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SlebRittie wrote:
I see the argument that you could play 3 Laborer to petition, then 1 Craftsman for Palace to craft twice, so I would allow it. I took OP's question to be "Can I petition with 3 Laborer, then also petition with 3 Patron, to craft twice using Palace?" which I would not allow for the reasons I gave. Basically I'm arguing that only the initial action can be a petition, not the Palace actions.


I would still allow the case you are describing, because the "three laborer" and "3 patrons" both effectually become Jacks, and you can play multiple Jacks form your hand to lead or follow if you have the Palace built.
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Chad Miller
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The rules text for petitioning says it is action used to lead or follow? Is there updated text in the Black Box edition changing this? I'd argue that the Palace actions are not themselves leading or following. I mean I can't argue that three identical clients in my clientele are a Jack. The rule isn't "3 matching cards are a Jack in any arbitrary situation."
 
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Jonathan C
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SlebRittie wrote:
The rules text for petitioning says it is action used to lead or follow? Is there updated text in the Black Box edition changing this? I'd argue that the Palace actions are not themselves leading or following. I mean I can't argue that three identical clients in my clientele are a Jack. The rule isn't "3 matching cards are a Jack in any arbitrary situation."


Yes, petitioning is used to lead or follow, regardless of which edition's rules you consult.
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Bruce Murphy
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SlebRittie wrote:
The rules text for petitioning says it is action used to lead or follow? Is there updated text in the Black Box edition changing this? I'd argue that the Palace actions are not themselves leading or following. I mean I can't argue that three identical clients in my clientele are a Jack. The rule isn't "3 matching cards are a Jack in any arbitrary situation."


Yes, the palace explicitly says lead or follow with multiple cards of the same rule including jacks. I believe the republic rules let you lead and follow with any objects around the table which are approximately the right colour.

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Robert
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SlebRittie wrote:
I took OP's question to be "Can I petition with 3 Laborer, then also petition with 3 Patron, to craft twice using Palace?" which I would not allow for the reasons I gave. Basically I'm arguing that only the initial action can be a petition, not the Palace actions.

This is incorrect. All the "Palace" actions are "leading" or "following", not just the first action you play. Think of the Palace as allowing you to lead/follow multiple times, if you need that to make sense of it. "Multiple cards of the same role including Jacks" is shorthand for "multiple plays of whatever you need to play to get the single role in question".

Quote:
I mean I can't argue that three identical clients in my clientele are a Jack. The rule isn't "3 matching cards are a Jack in any arbitrary situation."

No, it's you can play, from your hand, three same-color Order cards as a jack when you are leading or following, not just in any arbitrary situation. The Palace is being used while leading/following. There is no reason to take the first Order you play as the lead/follow and create an arbitrary special case window for the remaining cards, then use it to justify an unspecified and unlikely restriction (especially one that hinges on another such fabricated special case restriction rather than the simple rule that a petition is a jack). You are leading/following, and the Palace changes the single lead/follow into multiple lead/follows. Keep it simple.
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Jonathan C
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thepackrat wrote:
Yes, the palace explicitly says lead or follow with multiple cards of the same rule including jacks.


The card text on Palace actually says nothing about leading or following explicitly, but it strongly implies this, while the rule book FAQ makes it clear explicitly that using Palace is something you can do when leading or following.

'BlackBox Rules' wrote:
You may lead or follow with any cards of the same Role inlcuding Jacks and execute one action for each card played."


If it were not the case, then, using the power of Palace, you could slap down a Petition and start taking actions out of turn. As if Glory to Rome was not zany enough!
 
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Bruce Murphy
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looleypalooley wrote:
thepackrat wrote:
Yes, the palace explicitly says lead or follow with multiple cards of the same rule including jacks.


The card text on Palace actually says nothing about leading or following explicitly, but it strongly implies this, while the rule book FAQ makes it clear explicitly that using Palace is something you can do when leading or following.


The text on the cards is best considered a helpful memory aid, while the fuller text in the rulebook is definitive.

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