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Ambush!» Forums » Rules

Subject: Condition changes rss

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Tony Cutcliffe
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This question's about Condition changes and paragraph checks. I've just read paragraph 187, which finishes with 'Commence Rounds. US Advantage. Go to Condition 3.'

Now, does the Condition 3 begin immediately, as the Rounds begin, or does it wait until after the Rounds end? The logic would be because it's done in order, and it's mentioned at the end of the Paragraph 187. And the thing says 'after all the instructions in the paragraph have been completed'.... what counts as completed? However it must happen early because all the Germans activated in the paragraph have actions for only Condition 2 upwards.

Linked to this is another question - Rule5/5, in the second paragraph, it says to remove Event markers and then do Paragraph checks for all the US occupied hexes. Then there's another Paragraph check after changing the card. So do we do two Paragraph checks? It makes it looks as if the Condition changes twice (one is mentioned before the example and one after)! This is all so confusing!!
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Tony Cutcliffe
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And another thing that crops up - when doing the AR marker placement, the rules say that you should put them in the Completed box, but what if someone automatically has Advantage or Disadvantage, or two turns automatically, what then? Which Rule takes precedence? This is so confusing....and where does it say how to move the AR markers during Action Rounds....or is it simply 'implied' and we are somehow 'supposed to know'?
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Tony Oddo
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It has been awhile since I played Ambush. If memory serves, you IMMEDIATELY begin Rounds at Condition 3. You would remove all Event markers. You would then switch mission cards and perform a paragraph check for all soldiers.

At least, that is how I interpreted the rules and have been playing the game that way. I have had no problems with the system.
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Tony Oddo
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When a paragraph states that Germans have the advantage. Then they have the advantage regardless of the die roll for AR placement. For example, if the Germans have the advantage and you roll the die, even if the number would normally put the marker in the disadvantage row, the paragraph takes precedence and you would put them in the advantage row. At this point, the die roll would only determine the number of turns a soldier has.

The paragraph could also state advantage and number of turns, then it is just a matter of placing the markers accordingly. If a paragraph states that the Germans have 2 turns and the advantage, you would normally roll the dice to give you the German Action number to determine which paragraph to read for the German turn. The American die would be used to determine 1 or 2 turns but they would be at a disadvantage.

Bottom line is that the paragraph takes precedence in setting the advantage/disadvantage and number of turns. If it is not specifically stated in the paragraph, then you would roll the dice as normal to determine the conditions.

hope this helped!
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Tony Cutcliffe
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Thanks, Tony, it does help and I have put that into practice and it seems to work for me.

Another question, please: it says in the Assault Combat modifiers table that a German who was activated by the assaulting soldier in the same or an adjacent hex does not use his WS in the assault hit determination. So, my soldier activated the German who was in the next hex, and had advantage and two turns. Wooohoo! So he assaults the German, and the German's WS is not included in the calculation for that first turn. Is that right? (my soldier missed, btw, and also in the next Turn - bah!)
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Jonny Lawless
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Ambush can surely feel a little confusing at first, but once you have the first half a mission or so under your belt, things will be a lot smoother.

Quote:
Now, does the Condition 3 begin immediately, as the Rounds begin, or does it wait until after the Rounds end? The logic would be because it's done in order, and it's mentioned at the end of the Paragraph 187. And the thing says 'after all the instructions in the paragraph have been completed'.... what counts as completed? However it must happen early because all the Germans activated in the paragraph have actions for only Condition 2 upwards.


You answer your own question in your last sentence here. Let's look at section 3/2 under 'Commence Rounds':

Quote:
When a German soldier or vehicle is
activated, Rounds begin. First the German soldier or vehicle
card is located and its counter placed on the map. Then its AR
marker is placed on the Action Round Track in the Complete
Space. Then the first Round is begun using the Action Sequence


To my mind, you've commenced rounds once you've found the Germans you need and put their AR markers out. Anything past this is actually an action round, and not just the commencement. There's also a very good chance that you'll never go back to operations for the rest of the mission, so you need to do that condition change before you actually start the first round.

Quote:
Linked to this is another question - Rule5/5, in the second paragraph, it says to remove Event markers and then do Paragraph checks for all the US occupied hexes. Then there's another Paragraph check after changing the card. So do we do two Paragraph checks? It makes it looks as if the Condition changes twice (one is mentioned before the example and one after)! This is all so confusing!!


The card change is the very first thing that happens when you change conditions. You then do one paragraph check for all hexes occupied by your soldiers. This is basically to check if something has changed at their location from condition to condition and needs to be done only once. I'm not sure where you're seeing that it needs to be done before the card change and after.

Quote:
And another thing that crops up - when doing the AR marker placement, the rules say that you should put them in the Completed box, but what if someone automatically has Advantage or Disadvantage, or two turns automatically, what then? Which Rule takes precedence? This is so confusing....and where does it say how to move the AR markers during Action Rounds....or is it simply 'implied' and we are somehow 'supposed to know'?


You put the AR markers in the completed box at the commencement of rounds, but before the first action sequence where you'll actually place them in the turn boxes. Once you actually move on to placing them in their turns is where you'll take into account who automatically has advantage, or two turns.

Hope this helps!
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Tony Cutcliffe
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Jonny, that helps too - thanks!

You asked, "I'm not sure where you're seeing that it needs to be done before the card change and after." - well it's after the example in the rules; I see now that this is an interpretation of the example and not an exhortation to conduct another paragraph check.

Plus I must ask another question - sorry!

A German soldier's action is Paragraph 800 - lie prone. The example in the Rules says that he lies prone and does nothing else this turn. So far, so good. His marker is in the Completed box.

Now, however, his Officer's action is to 'give turn' to he nearest eligible German soldier. And it just so happens to be that bloke who went prone. So, the prone soldier's AR marker goes back into the '1 turn' box, but because the German Action number has not changed, all he's going to do is to lie prone again....is that right? As far as I can see, I have fulfilled no criteria to re-roll the German Action number.

What do you think?
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Jonny Lawless
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King_Drax_I wrote:
Jonny, that helps too - thanks!

You asked, "I'm not sure where you're seeing that it needs to be done before the card change and after." - well it's after the example in the rules; I see now that this is an interpretation of the example and not an exhortation to conduct another paragraph check.

Plus I must ask another question - sorry!

A German soldier's action is Paragraph 800 - lie prone. The example in the Rules says that he lies prone and does nothing else this turn. So far, so good. His marker is in the Completed box.

Now, however, his Officer's action is to 'give turn' to he nearest eligible German soldier. And it just so happens to be that bloke who went prone. So, the prone soldier's AR marker goes back into the '1 turn' box, but because the German Action number has not changed, all he's going to do is to lie prone again....is that right? As far as I can see, I have fulfilled no criteria to re-roll the German Action number.

What do you think?


You're right. Unless something has caused a self-preservation re-roll to take place, the action number will remain the same for the whole turn. Lucky you here!
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Flane
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Quote:
A German soldier's action is Paragraph 800 - lie prone. The example in the Rules says that he lies prone and does nothing else this turn. So far, so good. His marker is in the Completed box.

Now, however, his Officer's action is to 'give turn' to he nearest eligible German soldier. And it just so happens to be that bloke who went prone. So, the prone soldier's AR marker goes back into the '1 turn' box, but because the German Action number has not changed, all he's going to do is to lie prone again....is that right? As far as I can see, I have fulfilled no criteria to re-roll the German Action number.


The Action Number is re-rolled after all German soldiers complete that advantage level; the next action number will be unknown to you for the following advantage level.

Since the previously activated soldier (lie prone) is getting a new action, the Germans get a new Action Number. Maybe he Will stay prone again, or not.

=============
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Jonny Lawless
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flaney wrote:


Since the previously activated soldier (lie prone) is getting a new action, the Germans get a new Action Number. Maybe he Will stay prone again, or not.


Hmmm... the rules seem pretty clear on this:


Quote:
German Action Number. At the beginning of each turn in
which one or more German soldiers may act, roll one die and
note the result on the German Action Track with the German
Action marker. Use this Action Number when referring to the
card for each German that is acting this turn. This Action
Number remains in effect until the beginning of the next turn
in which Germans may act. Exception: If a German Special
Reaction comes into effect during a German turn, immediately
roll a new Action Number. This new number applies to all
Germans that have yet to act in the current turn. For example,
three Germans occupy the 2-Turn advantage space. Roll one
German Action number for the group, and then perform actions for each in alphabetical order. If a Special Reaction is
triggered for one of them, reroll the Action number.


So in this example, the soldier is given a turn and ends up right back in the same turn advantage space as before. I'm not seeing justification here for re-rolling the AR number, nor is that mentioned under 6/3 'Commanders Giving Turns'. Maybe I'm missing something?
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Pelle Nilsson
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jonnylawless wrote:

So in this example, the soldier is given a turn and ends up right back in the same turn advantage space as before. I'm not seeing justification here for re-rolling the AR number, nor is that mentioned under 6/3 'Commanders Giving Turns'. Maybe I'm missing something?


If a soldier receives a new turn that brings him up to a higher turn than everyone else, I would treat that like a start of a new turn and re-roll the action number. If the soldier was done and just brought up to the 1-turn space (the one you are currently resolving) I don't think I would re-roll (at least I can't think of a reason right now).
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Jonny Lawless
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pelni wrote:


If a soldier receives a new turn that brings him up to a higher turn than everyone else, I would treat that like a start of a new turn and re-roll the action number.


This situation is more tricky, and I've found myself unsure what to do more than once, but in the end I've decided to just stick with the same AR number throughout the turn, because it doesn't feel right to roll, then roll again when someone gets a turn bump, then roll yet again when he goes back down. Even though you're bouncing up and down, it all really feels like one continuous turn to me.

That said, in a situation where the paragraph tells the soldier to lie prone, it feels pretty silly too, but with my luck a German that gets extra turns is doing anything but lying prone.
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Pelle Nilsson
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i don't remember enemy commanders giving away turns that often, and happening to cause one to jump up to a higher turn would be even rarer, so any interpretation is probably good enough to not break the game.
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Tony Cutcliffe
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These replies are all really helpful - I thank you all most sincerely

You're right too in that a few moves into a game and it makes more sense... It's interesting actually because in this instance I had made a mistake. The German officer in question had just been assaulted by one of my NCOs, so what I should actually have done was to go into Self-Preservation because there was an active GI in the same hex. In the event, there were enough GIs available to cause him to surrender. Nice.

However this generates another question. As we have discussed above, a new German Action Number is rolled when one of them does a Special Reaction. Does self-preservation count a a special reaction, and so a new Action Number should be rolled?

In the 'No' direction, in the rules, Special Reactions are listed separately just above Self-Preservation. No mention is made in the self-preservation section about a new Action Number.

In the 'Yes' direction, the Special Reaction columns on the German soldier cards are all headed 'Special' - I assume the self-preservation is the 'S' column (and why does the other column have different letters on different cards? Something else I will have to learn as the situations occur...)

What do you guys think?
 
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Jonny Lawless
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King_Drax_I wrote:
These replies are all really helpful - I thank you all most sincerely

You're right too in that a few moves into a game and it makes more sense... It's interesting actually because in this instance I had made a mistake. The German officer in question had just been assaulted by one of my NCOs, so what I should actually have done was to go into Self-Preservation because there was an active GI in the same hex. In the event, there were enough GIs available to cause him to surrender. Nice.

However this generates another question. As we have discussed above, a new German Action Number is rolled when one of them does a Special Reaction. Does self-preservation count a a special reaction, and so a new Action Number should be rolled?

In the 'No' direction, in the rules, Special Reactions are listed separately just above Self-Preservation. No mention is made in the self-preservation section about a new Action Number.

In the 'Yes' direction, the Special Reaction columns on the German soldier cards are all headed 'Special' - I assume the self-preservation is the 'S' column (and why does the other column have different letters on different cards? Something else I will have to learn as the situations occur...)

What do you guys think?


The way the rulebooks words some things makes me think that self-preservation is not a special reaction:

Quote:
Sometimes, however, a
Special Reaction or Self-Preservation (both indicated by letters) may be in effect for a German


Quote:
The self preservation column takes precedence over the
normal condition column and over a Special Reaction column


So I'm voting no re-roll.

Quote:
(and why does the other column have different letters on different cards? Something else I will have to learn as the situations occur...)


Just to distinguish them from other special reactions. You'll read paragraphs that say "Put special reaction 'N' in effect for this German" or something like that. Truth be told special reactions don't come up terribly often.
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Tony Cutcliffe
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Nice. Thanks, Jonny
 
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