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Crowdfunding: Kickstarter» Forums » General

Subject: Kickstarter backer promos? should they be avalible to purchase later? if so, when? rss

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Martin Samocha
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Lately I have been thinking a lot about how KS affects how i feel about a game. This started a little while ago when I played a game of Zombicide I loved the game, great use of theme and a great ameritrasher, but the person who had the game showed me all the extras recived as being a backer. The fact that it was impossible to find all of this without paying a fortune on eBay dropped the game from "must buy" immediatly to "don't bother looking" meerly on the basis that a retail copy would never have cool stuff like that and i was never going to get the extras.

I feel that this is a huge propbelm with that format. If I see it in my FLGS and know it was on KS I'm not going to pick it up beause I know what I missed out on.

Additionally it seems companies could make oodles, yes, oodles by offering these extras as stand alone sets you could buy seperatly. These sets shouldn't be avalible immediatly becuase incentive to back goes down. but I think that someone would be more likely to buy the game retail in they knew that the bonus would be avalibel say within 6 months. Any other thoughts on this subject?

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Mario Cortez
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It seems to me that if you love a game, you should go out and get it. Then hunt down the extras if you really want them. I don't think kickstarter incentives or stretch goals should be offered after, if the publisher has already stated they will not be. Personally I wouldn't mind if they were sold after but if that became common place I don't think they would reach their goals as often because the incentive to kickstart is gone. Seeing as how you can purchase games after they have been kickstarted for a much cheaper price.
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Scott Hill
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Take a look at the promos geeklist - how many of the games in that list do you already own?

EDIT: In fact, looking at your collection, I can see two game that you own, and play, that have had exclusive promos - King of Tokyo, and Flash Point: Fire Rescue - are you going to sell them now? And that's without checking the promos geeklist (and I'm pretty sure I recall seeing several of your other games on that list).

And how many are you not going to buy just because there were exclusive promos for it?

Exclusive promos are not the reserve of Kickstarter, Kickstarter just makes the fact they exist more visible.

It seems a little pointless not to get a game just because some people have exclusive promos for it.

If you did that for all games with exclusive promos, you'd hardly ever buy a game.

It's even more pointless when it comes to Zombicide because it's only the sculpts that are exclusive - you can download the character sheets and use those characters even without the exclusive sculpts (either use one of the sculpts that come with the game, or buy a third party stand-in).
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Michael Bonet
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I think some publishers will offer extras to people at a later. I imagine it will depend on the popularity of the game after the initial campaign. Not all extras should be offered, but I find that some Kickstarter games aren't worth the price without the extras.
 
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Martin Samocha
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I actually own neither Flash point nor King of Tokyo.

EDIT: and i didn't mean to imply this is a constant thing that i think about. but the case with zombicide is about the only one i have come across where my interest dwindled. my who point is that the companies could make money selling those extras. if it was much later than the KS would you feel you had wasted your money?
 
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Scott Hill
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glitch404 wrote:
I actually own neither Flash point nor King of Tokyo.


Oops. blush Misread your collection.

My point still stands though - are you never going buy those games because they've had exclusive promos?
 
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Double Plus Undead
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I can see both sides of this. I think that being a completist is self-defeating, but I can understand some people can't help it. (It still makes me facepalm whenever I hear somebody say "Oh, I can't get into that game! I might like it, and then I'd have to buy all those expansions!") Never mind that the game is great without the promos/expansions, or that some promos and expansions suck, and make the game worse. (I am beginning to wonder how many Kickstarter promos/expansions have been adequately playtested, and how many were just tacked on quickly as a stretch goal, in hopes of making more money.)

In any case, I think that 6 months is a reasonable compromise, as most completists probably also hate waiting. (Speaking of waiting, that 6 months had better be from actual shipping date, and not estimated shipping date...)
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Dean Glencross
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I'm the same. Promos that I know I can't get just put me off the game.
I don't mind paying extra for them or having to wait, but if you want me to really consider your game, make sure that I can get everything without having to resort to ebay. Put them on your own site, or on the BGG store.
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Anthony Baldassar
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The original question Kickstarter Promos avalible or not - I think as long as it's stated up front the extras will be avalible to the public then that's fine,

Although the reason why I kickstart a game is the publisher/designer is a small publisher/designer and really needs the help.

As a thank you for paying a premium the extras are provided or offered - I like seeing the small guy win, but at what risk? Do I kickstart and pay a premium just to help them or let someone else pay at top price and I get it at Miniaturemarket for 1/2 the cost?

For kickstarter to survive there has to be a hook not just oh poor me no one likes my game, throw money at me.

Like I said I like helping the little guy but I'm not stupid.
 
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Michael Bonet
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I want to add that I recently bought Escape: The Curse of the Temple and I am completely happy with it despite not having the KS extras, although some of them seem pretty sweet.

I would still buy a game if I liked it and thought the price was reasonable without all those extras.
 
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Martin Samocha
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okay well lets look from another angle. say you KS a game and it comes with like bonus minis and fully painted ones and all kinds of good stuff. you play it often and are satisfied. 6 months later you find out that the company is planning to release say the fully painted miniatures as a set for say half of what the game retails at. does this make you go "i never should have backed that! if they were just gonna be sold!"

for me it would make me think "nice, now other people can play the game as awesomely as mine is, but i already have it!"
 
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Scott VM
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I've backed some projects on Kickstarter because of the exclusive promos; under normal circumstances I probably would have waited until the game was published for financial reasons.

I'm all for offering stretch rewards and add-ons to help increase funding and make a better game for everyone, but everyone should mean EVERYONE. Even the people who missed out on the Kickstarter campaign. I prefer that promos be made available to the general public; either right away or at some point in the future.

Some publishers have handled the situation very well by offering special "Kickstarter green" components, a Kickstarter backer logo on the box cover and/or in the rules booklet, etc. As a backer, you still get something unique, and you get it before non-backers. That should be enough. Meanwhile, everyone else gets to enjoy the same amount of gameplay and nobody feels left out.
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Anthony Baldassar
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glitch404 wrote:
okay well lets look from another angle. say you KS a game and it comes with like bonus minis and fully painted ones and all kinds of good stuff. you play it often and are satisfied. 6 months later you find out that the company is planning to release say the fully painted miniatures as a set for say half of what the game retails at. does this make you go "i never should have backed that! if they were just gonna be sold!"

for me it would make me think "nice, now other people can play the game as awesomely as mine is, but i already have it!"


The question of the intent of the release, that's more important - I expect every game to be cheaper than what I kickstarted it at (I've kickstarted about 24 projects)

Did the kickstarter say exclusive? The designer/publisher has a right to do what they want but they'll lose credibility.

If there was full disclosure or they didn't say exclusive then I expect it to be released and cheaper
 
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Dean Glencross
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tebald wrote:
glitch404 wrote:
okay well lets look from another angle. say you KS a game and it comes with like bonus minis and fully painted ones and all kinds of good stuff. you play it often and are satisfied. 6 months later you find out that the company is planning to release say the fully painted miniatures as a set for say half of what the game retails at. does this make you go "i never should have backed that! if they were just gonna be sold!"

for me it would make me think "nice, now other people can play the game as awesomely as mine is, but i already have it!"


The question of the intent of the release, that's more important - I expect every game to be cheaper than what I kickstarted it at (I've kickstarted about 24 projects)

Did the kickstarter say exclusive? The designer/publisher has a right to do what they want but they'll lose credibility.

If there was full disclosure or they didn't say exclusive then I expect it to be released and cheaper


I agree they should state up front that it would be early access to the promos.

As for cheaper. I kind of expect the game to be cheaper, but don't see any reason the promos should be.
 
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The all-seeing, all-knowing, all-trollin' Mike Hutton
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Absolutely not, these should not be offered again. Everyone had a chance to back this, those that didn't? Tough break. Should I expect microsoft to offer shares at their initial value since I missed the boat all those years ago? Or maybe I should ask Milton Bradley to re"release the heroquest expansions again since I don't want to pay 400 for them but found out about them recentlyandwould like to play them. Ignorance isn't a excuse, especially whenyouhave this site to gather info on all games.

I got them and I deserve them. Those who didn't back don't......period.
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Sarah Brennick
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I don't follow Kickstarter all that closely, so I didn't know about the Zombicide Kickstarter until after it had closed. I have supported other games.

I purchased Zombicide when it came out and haven't played it yet with my friends (still working on painting all of those pieces ), but it looks great, and after reading through the rules, I expect my friends and I will have a blast with it, without extra promo figures. In fact, the game is a bit more challenging without them.

I'm not a completionist however, so a game isn't ruined for me if it's missing a promo item. If I want a promo item badly enough, I will save up and buy it from someone who is offering for sale. If I don't want it badly enough to justify the price that person is charging, then I simply won't buy it. It won't ruin the fun I am having with the game. I don't judge a game for it's promos. Those are just extra bells and whistles. I think anyone who won't purchase a game because of the Kickstarter items he/she missed out on is doing the game, the hobby and themselves a disservice.

I don't think I personally would be upset if promos for a game I Kickstarted became available later, as I Kickstart support games that I would like to see released and want to help see that happen. But that being said, I don't necessarily agree with those promo items being made available later for reasons others have already pointed out. If the promos mean that much to you, help Kickstart the game. If you miss that window of opportunity, just save up and buy the promos from someone who helped get that game you want so badly out onto the shelves.
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Wayne O'Keeffe
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mhutton wrote:
Absolutely not, these should not be offered again. Everyone had a chance to back this, those that didn't? Tough break.

I got them and I deserve them. Those who didn't back don't......period.


Don't agree with that for a second. Everyone may not have had a chance to back the project. If they don't frequent BGG or other such websites then they may not have been aware of the project at all. Sometimes it's only after the release of the game that people are aware of it due to popularity.

(E.g. I picked up Alien Frontiers on the second Kickstarter only because I heard the good press. I got the The Mind Control Helmet but missed out on The Space Crane. This really bugs me that I can't get it.)

I also think people’s sense of entitlement with regards to promo's on Kickstarter is a joke. You're getting the game, one that might not otherwise have been made if you didn't back it. Chances are you're getting it cheaper than retail too. That's enough of a reward.

If 10% of a game wasn't available to me for purchase at some stage I would consider not getting it and get another game instead. One I know I can enjoy/test everything it has to offer.

I picked up Among the Stars a month or two ago on preorder and it came with loads of promo's. If others didn't have the opportunity to pick them up then I think that's bad form.

Again, people thinking they deserve free stuff gets on my nerve. Sure the publisher can give items away but I think they should be available for everyone who supports the game.
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Martin Samocha
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mhutton wrote:
Absolutely not, these should not be offered again. Everyone had a chance to back this, those that didn't? Tough break. Should I expect microsoft to offer shares at their initial value since I missed the boat all those years ago? Or maybe I should ask Milton Bradley to re"release the heroquest expansions again since I don't want to pay 400 for them but found out about them recentlyandwould like to play them. Ignorance isn't a excuse, especially whenyouhave this site to gather info on all games.

I got them and I deserve them. Those who didn't back don't......period.


Faulty logic much? This refers to games that are still 'in print' or are brand new. you don't expect MB to do anything considering the company is nothing more than a name that Hasbro uses, for a product that hasn't been widely available since the 80's. no one expects that.
 
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Michael Bonet
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mhutton wrote:
Absolutely not, these should not be offered again. Everyone had a chance to back this, those that didn't? Tough break. Should I expect microsoft to offer shares at their initial value since I missed the boat all those years ago? Or maybe I should ask Milton Bradley to re"release the heroquest expansions again since I don't want to pay 400 for them but found out about them recentlyandwould like to play them. Ignorance isn't a excuse, especially whenyouhave this site to gather info on all games.

I got them and I deserve them. Those who didn't back don't......period.


The problem with applying this logic to Kickstarter is that the goal of most campaigns is to help a small time publisher fund their product. Not as many campaigns are for the creation of limited edition only products (Ogre).
 
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Scott Hill
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glitch404 wrote:
okay well lets look from another angle. say you KS a game and it comes with like bonus minis and fully painted ones and all kinds of good stuff. you play it often and are satisfied. 6 months later you find out that the company is planning to release say the fully painted miniatures as a set for say half of what the game retails at. does this make you go "i never should have backed that! if they were just gonna be sold!"

for me it would make me think "nice, now other people can play the game as awesomely as mine is, but i already have it!"


It would depend on how it was presented.

If something is presented as a "Kickstarter exclusive" then that is what it should be and always remain.

However, if something that had been presented as a "Kickstarter exclusive" were to later be sold, it wouldn't make me think "I should never have backed that", it would make me think "they should never have gone back on their word" and I would make darn sure that they knew that that was how I felt about it. I'd probably also be less likely to back any future project from the same designer/developer/publisher (depending on who the blame appeared to lie with).
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I'm about at the point where I'd love to never hear the word "Kickstarter" again. Out of the KS games I've played I don't think I've ever played one where the bonus stuff is even halfway necessary or worthwhile. But Jesus, you'd think they were giving out solid gold blowjowbs from the way you people talk about them. As usual, existence implies necessity, and if they are there then by god you've got to have them and what's more, you've got to make sure you feel good and special for having them. That damn bonus card suddenly looks like a big steaming pile of donkey crap if it turns out someone else can just get it later on.

I can't wait until we go back to the model where a company makes a thing and people buy it or don't. This petty bullshit is going to have to make the whole thing go belly up soon.
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I think they should be available at a later date. Either as an expansion, or included if/when a second printing is released. I have turned down games that might be great b/c I can't get the promos. I don't mind waiting.

I figure that if the promos were made in the first place, they obviously add something to the game or fulfill the designer's vision, so why shouldn't everyone have the chance to play the "complete" game? If it added enough to the game to justify manufacturing it and offering it, then people who buy retail miss that full experience.

And, like a PP said, it's not always a matter of backing or not. Some people don't know about KS or promos. Not every hobby gamer is on BGG and checking every day to see what's new. They may not know about a game until they see it at the store, a friend's house, or on Amazon. And then it's too late to get the goodies so they get the shaft.

(What's more irksome is when the game is great but ONLY with the promos. In those cases, if you buy it retail, you're only getting half a game. That's a big reason right there why promos should be available at some point.)
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Scott Hill
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OxfordRow wrote:
I figure that if the promos were made in the first place, they obviously add something to the game or fulfill the designer's vision, so why shouldn't everyone have the chance to play the "complete" game? If it added enough to the game to justify manufacturing it and offering it, then people who buy retail miss that full experience.

...

(What's more irksome is when the game is great but ONLY with the promos. In those cases, if you buy it retail, you're only getting half a game. That's a big reason right there why promos should be available at some point.)


If either of those is true, then they're doing the promo(s) wrong, imo.

A promo should never be a necessity.

They should always be entirely optional extra somethings that just exist to differentiate the backers/pre-orderers/con-attendees/whatevers from everyone else, and nothing more than that.
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Big KS supporter here.

Not a fan of exclusives or impossible to get promos.

If a creator ends up selling stretch goals I received for free as a KS supporter, I have no problem with it.

If potential purchasers are put off from buying a game due to their inability to obtain exclusives and promos, that's a bad thing in my book.

I'm a fan of anything that gets more people playing the game.
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mhutton wrote:
Absolutely not, these should not be offered again. Everyone had a chance to back this, those that didn't? Tough break. Should I expect microsoft to offer shares at their initial value since I missed the boat all those years ago? Or maybe I should ask Milton Bradley to re"release the heroquest expansions again since I don't want to pay 400 for them but found out about them recentlyandwould like to play them. Ignorance isn't a excuse, especially whenyouhave this site to gather info on all games.

I got them and I deserve them. Those who didn't back don't......period.

Didn't actually think that through before you posted did ya?
1. Stocks are a poor analogy for so many reasons.
2. We often see older popular games reprinted if the demand exits. (I mean heck, why not ask MB to reprint Axis and Allies, Conquest of the Empire or Shogun? Oh wait, someone did.)

As to the original poster's question. I think it depends on the game and how the extras enhance the game. So for some of them, the impact is minimal (e.g. The alternate hero cards in Sentinels of the Multiverse). Others I see as having a stronger impact on the game. (Say the extra characters in Zombiecide).

I think it is something companies should offer if at all possible if for no other reasons than to make extra money. Offer it direct through the website if you don't want the retail sector cutting the price to upset kickstarter backers.
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