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Subject: Should board games really be considered toys? rss

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A boy named Sioux
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Browsing the Book Depository website, I stumbled across Walter here because of how the site is organised categorising board games as toys. It made me think that this is just the kind of thing that makes the public at large consider our hobby as well, um, toys which comes along with a connotation of something that isn't for adults.



I suppose there are "toys" for adults (No, not like that, you in the back) like premium figures, fandom statuettes, vinyl figures and the like. I don't know. I think seeing Walter tucked in there among board games disturbed me but then again, I think I might be disturbed if I saw Walter anywhere.

So should board games be considered toys? Are they toys? Do you think they're toys? Or are some games toys and some not? I wonder.
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Wulf Corbett
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It's funny, computer games have now become mainstream, played by all ages and sexes, but boardgames just never get the same respect. Boardgames are always for kids in the eyes of the general public.

They are toys though.

And I like Walter
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Ed Holzman
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Farting dog? Too tame. Note that this video is pixelated to protect young eyes...

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A boy named Sioux
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I'd like to find someone who works at the factory that makes that so I can ask them what they do for a living.
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Wulf Corbett
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Another point...
Siouxfire wrote:
I suppose there are "toys" for adults (No, not like that, you in the back)
That's an interesting point too. Anything considered 'adult' usually actually means 'kinky' at best, 'pervy' usually. Which does make it even more difficult finding an alternative to calling boardgames 'toys'...
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A boy named Sioux
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Well, for wargames I see them almost as a cross between a history book and a simulation. For other games, I see them as fun yes but also as a mental challenge. I don't think those wooden puzzles are considered toys, are they? Maybe they are? No one sees chess as a toy. Board games are board games--they are their own media. I don't think they should be classified as toys.

** still mulling this concept over in my head
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Jeffrey Nolin
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They should be classified as weapons...to fight boredom and senility.
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Wulf Corbett
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Siouxfire wrote:
Well, for wargames I see them almost as a cross between a history book and a simulation.
I'd disagree here. Certainly, some wargames are solidly based on historical fact and plentiful research, and do have a considerable element of simulation and educational content. But the very fact you play them makes them, by definition, games. And a game is a toy with rules. Even simulations are toys if you get to direct their progress for entertainment purposes.

Any wargame that's not a toy sounds pretty boring to me...
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A boy named Sioux
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
Siouxfire wrote:
Well, for wargames I see them almost as a cross between a history book and a simulation.
I'd disagree here. Certainly, some wargames are solidly based on historical fact and plentiful research, and do have a considerable element of simulation and educational content. But the very fact you play them makes them, by definition, games. And a game is a toy with rules. Even simulations are toys if you get to direct their progress for entertainment purposes.

Sounds like you're talking about a war themed game.

But seriously, one of my motivations for playing war games is the learning element which I (perhaps oddly) enjoy.
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Wulf Corbett
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Siouxfire wrote:
But seriously, one of my motivations for playing war games is the learning element which I (perhaps oddly) enjoy.
Hardly limited to wargames though. There are plenty of educational games around, and plenty of games that'll teach you something about the subject. Wargames are not any different to games like High Frontier, Gene Pool, etc. in that respect.

I'm always amazed that hardcore wargamers still seem to consider themselves somehow separate, and often above, other gamers. You're playing a game, guys, not furthering the progress of humanity. It's just Monopoly with more rules.
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Boardgames are toys. Anyone who thinks people of all ages can't play with toys takes life too seriously.



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A boy named Sioux
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
Hardly limited to wargames though. There are plenty of educational games around, and plenty of games that'll teach you something about the subject. Wargames are not any different to games like High Frontier, Gene Pool, etc. in that respect.

I'm always amazed that hardcore wargamers still seem to consider themselves somehow separate, and often above, other gamers. You're playing a game, guys, not furthering the progress of humanity. It's just Monopoly with more rules.

I'm hardly a hardcore war gamer as I only played my first war game in 2013 but the experience is different. Trying to say that it's like Monopoly is ridiculous. That's like saying the experience of watching the film Schindler's List is the same as Star Wars. It's completely different. Not better or worse but it is different. Reading non-fiction is different from fiction. I don't see the problem.

Where is hostility from? I'm not saying anything about furthering the progress of humanity. I'm just saying I find the experience different and it has encouraged me to learn more about history.
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Wulf Corbett
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C. S. Lewis wrote:
When I became a man I put aside all childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up


(may be paraphrased, working from memory)
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Jennifer Derrick
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A lot of things that are "adult" hobbies are still thought of as kid's stuff. Model trains, for example, or model building. Those aren't the kinds of things that most young kids can or should handle - they just don't have the patience and care required to treat the equipment well - yet most people not involved in those hobbies think they're for kids.

In some stores those things are sold in they toy aisle but they aren't toys. I think it's more of a case of a retailer not having space to separate things out, or assuming that because there are some games, or trains, or models that are for kids, that putting them all together is somehow more efficient.

But it's like putting young adult books in with the adult titles, or the romance in with the science fiction. Yes, they are all books (or games) but very different types of books/games dealing with different subject matter. Maybe there needs to be a toy aisle for older "kids."

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Wulf Corbett
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Siouxfire wrote:
I'm hardly a hardcore war gamer as I only played my first war game in 2013 but the experience is different. Trying to say that it's like Monopoly is ridiculous. That's like saying the experience of watching the film Schindler's List is the same as Star Wars.
But it is the same medium carrying a different message. The subject may be different, what you get from it may be different, but the experience of watching it is the same - you're a passive observer expected to achieve some degree of immersion, and suspension of disbelief. They're both entertainment designed to make money.
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Where is hostility from? I'm not saying anything about furthering the progress of humanity.
There's no hostility, I wasn't particularly targeting you, or anyone here (the ones I would target wouldn't lower themselves to visiting a boardgaming website). But look at what you have said here - if you genuinely believe wargames are a class apart from every other boardgame, you are on the way...
 
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A boy named Sioux
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
Siouxfire wrote:
Where is hostility from? I'm not saying anything about furthering the progress of humanity.
There's no hostility, I wasn't particularly targeting you, or anyone here (the ones I would target wouldn't lower themselves to visiting a boardgaming website). But look at what you have said here - if you genuinely believe wargames are a class apart from every other boardgame, you are on the way...

It's no different than saying my experience with chess is different to playing Twilight Imperium. I'm not "on the way" to anywhere.
 
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Siouxfire wrote:
So should board games be considered toys? Are they toys? Do you think they're toys? Or are some games toys and some not? I wonder.


I agree with Will Wright, creator of Sim City. I had read somewhere that Sim City in his view was not a computer "game", but a computer "toy". His explanation was that a game, the creator of the game creates the goal, where a toy, similar to a ball or dolls, the goal of their play is made by the person playing with it. Sim City had no victory condition, you could just do whatever you pleased.

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Wulf Corbett
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Look at it another way - computer games. Are computer flight simulators or Call of Duty, in your opinion, more educational or richer experiences than other computer games? They are wargames, after all, and there's a lot more detail and accuracy in there than in any boardgame. There's more accuracy in Il-2 Sturmovik (at maximum realism settings) than in any boardgame flight sim, even J D Webster's, simply as a result of the medium.
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Wulf Corbett
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wwwebb wrote:
I agree with Will Wright, creator of Sim City. I had read somewhere that Sim City in his view was not a computer "game", but a computer "toy". His explanation was that a game, the creator of the game creates the goal, where a toy, similar to a ball or dolls, the goal of their play is made by the person playing with it. Sim City had no victory condition, you could just do whatever you pleased.
I'd agree with that, but with the comment I used above that a 'game' is a toy with rules. Even in Sim City (I understand, never played it) you have to obey the rules to achieve your goals - better house, job, more money, etc - I'm assuming those are possible based on what I've heard. You can't just be a millionaire in mansion because you want to be, can you?

EDIT: sorry, I was thinking of 'The Sims', not Sim City. Funny, I'd disagree about Sim City - that does have definite rules and you definitely can fail. Granted, there's no definite way to win.
 
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No.

Toys, games, and puzzles are separate things.
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A boy named Sioux
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
Look at it another way - computer games. Are computer flight simulators or Call of Duty, in your opinion, more educational or richer experiences than other computer games? They are wargames, after all, and there's a lot more detail and accuracy in there than in any boardgame. There's more accuracy in Il-2 Sturmovik (at maximum realism settings) than in any boardgame flight sim, even J D Webster's, simply as a result of the medium.

I don't just divide between war games and "the rest of board games". There are different experiences across all board games. I used war games as an example of something I recently played and experienced. Equally, my experience between playing Agricola and Descent are completely different. It sounds as if you've come across people who tried to build a wall between "wargaming" and other board games. Why? I have no idea but please don't put that label on me. By saying different games offer different experiences I am sharing my own experience. You have every right to share a differing experience by all means but have respect for my position while doing so and remember all wargamers don't necessarily conform to your experience.

Also, an "educational" and "richer experience" for some go together, for others they're separate, and for some they're contradictory. We're all different and we find fun in a variety of ways and that is how it should be. Some like light games, some heavy and with different motivations. It's all good.
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Craig.
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For what it's worth, the Barnes & Noble web site has lots of games listed in the Books and Other category rather than in it's Toys & Games category.
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shigadeyo wrote:
For what it's worth, the Barnes & Noble web site has lots of games listed in the Books and Other category rather than in it's Toys & Games category.

Diapers.com also sell games: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/926571/diapers-com-telephone...
 
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William Bowers
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What's wrong with toys?
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Liam
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I'd call them games rather than toys.

Generally online though on Amazon and the like I'm looking for the 'toys and games' section.
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