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Android: Netrunner» Forums » General

Subject: LCGs and the rapidly changing meta rss

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Evan
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Here's a question I want to run past those of you who have played other LCGs: how does the pace of Netrunner's meta compare?

I ask because I've been avidly following each new release, and it's starting to get a little hard to keep up. This is especially true given the wild shifts that we're starting to see with Cyber Exodus. Part of the problem seems to result from the way a cycle is created and released; for example, a whole lot of people are probably taking Archer out of their decks because of Emergency Shutdown, but I have a hunch that, a month from now, Oversight AI (whatever it does) is going to get them to put it right back. And so on.

Anyways, I was wondering whether these monthly swings in the meta are pretty standard fare for LCG releases (I've played CoC, but usually only buy a pack after it's been out for a long time), or whether it's because the card pool is still so small and the effect will diminish over time, or what? If the current pace continues, I think I'd actually prefer it if they moved to the "infrequent bigger boxes" model that they've introduced for the older, less popular titles.
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Aaron Morgan
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I like the meta swings, because its thematically appropriate.
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Samuel Hinz
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Well I play weekly on Wednesday nights. and it seems like it's good to have some slight speed bumps every 4 weeks or so.

Group meta is probably more important than the card releases.

there are alot of jinteki players in our meta and most of them don't run super servers anyway.

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David Boeren
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This is typical of being in the infancy of the game, combined with the BGG community being wildly over-reactive.

I'm sure someone will protest me saying this, but the real game isn't even out yet. What we're seeing right now is sort of a demo of the full game, but there's not enough card pool yet for things to have stabilized, nor for people to really customize their decks as they will be able to later on. Personally, I think the game will be pretty settled in after say the first two cycles are out.

One of the reasons people here are so highly reactionary is that they're not used to these kind of games. It's all new and crazy and they don't understand it so people jump to all sorts of weird conclusions and run around in a constant "the sky is falling" mentality. I'm hoping too that given time folks will start to relax a bit more and also discard the fallacy that every deck is automatically going to contain whatever the newest cards are at the time.

So overall, no, what you're seeing is not normal but the good news is that it should fade away over time.

You won't see a move to the less frequent boxed expansions anytime soon. Maybe someday, years from now, but right now the game is badly starved for more cards and it would not make sense to lower the release rate. Plus as I said it's a problem with the community overreacting and not a problem with the pace anyway. Believe me, I'm pretty tired of it too - sometimes I feel like I'm stuck in the middle of an entire rave party of chicken littles all running and screaming in different directions with their various unsupported doom predictions. It'll be great when it eventually wears off.
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Erik Twice
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I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy to fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck befoer a new expansion is out.

Changes will become smaller as the pool grows but it's still too fast. I would rather have expansions every two months.
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Ryan Angell
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General_Norris wrote:
I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy to fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck befoer a new expansion is out.

Changes will become smaller as the pool grows but it's still too fast. I would rather have expansions every two months.


yeah but from a business standpoint ffg is wise to keep the frenzy for new cards going. without something as established as friday night magic, magic online and a pro tour every other card game publisher only has new cards to generate interest in their game.
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Ben Asher
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dboeren wrote:
This is typical of being in the infancy of the game, combined with the BGG community being wildly over-reactive.


This.
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Richard Poole
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Where are all these crazy over-reactionary discussions? The Archer thing, as explained by OP, makes perfect sense. There's a powerful ice with a fair cost, and requires setup before you can use it. That's what makes it balanced. Then there's a way to shut it down, and require that setup to be done again before you can reuse it. That's a huge liability when that card exists in what's already the strongest faction. It may become not worth its setup. But then when you have the counter to the counter in Oversight, not only does Shutdown become not that bad, but it also gives you a way to bypass its otherwise annoying setup.

When you have a tiny pool, each addition is hugely significant and can cause large changes in meta.

What would be crazy and over the top is if you never played Archer because FAO exists.
 
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Chris Long
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General_Norris wrote:
I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy too fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck before a new expansion is out.


This is my opinion as well. I really want to settle down and explore a whole cycle for a few months before I have to deal with a whole new infusion of cards. In that sense, the CCG model was much better for me. I'd rather see them release a cycle of 6 packs once every four months or so. Let me catch my breath.
 
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Ben Finkel
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Personally, I really love getting excited about new cards every month and talking about new things. Slowing it down to every other month would be a loss, in my opinion.
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Justin
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sniktsnikt wrote:
General_Norris wrote:
I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy to fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck befoer a new expansion is out.

Changes will become smaller as the pool grows but it's still too fast. I would rather have expansions every two months.

yeah but from a business standpoint ffg is wise to keep the frenzy for new cards going. without something as established as friday night magic, magic online and a pro tour every other card game publisher only has new cards to generate interest in their game.

From a business standpoint, it is wise to align their decisions with the interests of their (would-be) customers. The two are not in theoretical conflict.
 
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Dave Kudzma
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It took two cycles and a big box before I thought Invasion had a big enough pool to be varied; I'm certain Netrunner will be no different.
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Dave Kudzma
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radynski wrote:
This is my opinion as well. I really want to settle down and explore a whole cycle for a few months before I have to deal with a whole new infusion of cards. In that sense, the CCG model was much better for me. I'd rather see them release a cycle of 6 packs once every four months or so. Let me catch my breath.


It's interesting you say that. While I know the going theory is that the less popular LCG's are being "retired" with the same model you describe, it's also interesting that your perspective fits that same shift in distribution.

I've always thought it might be better to have some big sets now and again rather than just snippets; especially a game like Lord of the Rings, that gets so few cards for deckbuiding per pack.
 
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David Boeren
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radynski wrote:
I really want to settle down and explore a whole cycle for a few months before I have to deal with a whole new infusion of cards. In that sense, the CCG model was much better for me. I'd rather see them release a cycle of 6 packs once every four months or so. Let me catch my breath.


Yes, but once the game finishes booting each new pack won't change the meta very much and you likely won't feel like you're testing a whole new set of decks.

When a new pack came out for Call of Cthulhu (before the recent switch to boxed expansions) there would usually be a few cards I immediately wanted to try out in a new deck, some I wasn't really interested in at the moment, and some that looked useful, but didn't inspire an urgent need to build a deck around. And I generally felt like a month was enough time to try out a couple of new decks (some of which may just be updated versions of old decks), refine them a bit, and not feel rushed. I think this was because the card pool was pretty stable and new cards only flavored what already existed rather than shaking the boat significantly.
 
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Jordan Hall
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Some people only have opportunity to play a handful of times per month, and the rapidly changing meta ends up leaving them behind. There was a tournament last weekend in my area, but I never attended because my regular playgroup could only get their schedules to overlap enough for two or three games - hardly enough testing to justify paying an entry fee.

If we had less data packs or the cards weren't so wildly swingy, this wouldn't be an issue. Guess I'm not FFG's target audience, though...
 
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Jorge G.
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General_Norris wrote:
I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy to fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck befoer a new expansion is out.

Changes will become smaller as the pool grows but it's still too fast. I would rather have expansions every two months.


Or more, in my case. I really liked how things were before the expansions came, everything got tested and discussed and you really knew what you were playing. I do like expansions to stir that up, yes; but bi-monthly or more would mean time to get used to the changes and the option of really explore each before the next comes out.
 
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Randall Barnes
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Well I will say that BIG swings in the meta are not that common, nor do I believe they are really happening now. In Warhammer: Invasion for example, I played for about a year and a half, during which time there were 4 big swings in the meta... all of which you could see coming. So far there hasn't really been a shift in the Meta. Criminal has always been strong and they still play one basic type of deck most of he time. I believe, despite the presence of Placrete, that a deck specifically focused on Scorched Earth is still dominant and not fun. Even the factions that have "shifted" the most widely have really only had their strategies fleshed out (Jinteki and NBN). There have been no crazy new archtypes, just cards that make you swap in and out a few cards here and there. Most new archetypes you can see coming: there will probably be a full milling deck from Anarch soonish, a breakerless deck from Criminal, an all _____ ice deck from some corp, etc. Emergency Shutdown is the closest thing we've seen to a meta-shifting card, and even that is just deck tweeking to get better economy or smaller ice. I for one am actually looking forward to the first real shift.
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Samuel Hinz
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General_Norris wrote:
I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy to fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck befoer a new expansion is out.

Changes will become smaller as the pool grows but it's still too fast. I would rather have expansions every two months.


sounds like you need to play more. ninja
 
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Scott C
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abodi wrote:
General_Norris wrote:
I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy to fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck befoer a new expansion is out.

Changes will become smaller as the pool grows but it's still too fast. I would rather have expansions every two months.


sounds like you need to play more. ninja

And, if his situation is at all like mine, I'm sure he'd like to.

While I've introduced the game to several of my friends, none but my step-brother have taken *such* a shine to it that they've gone out and bought it themselves. Said step-brother lives an hour away, so playing with him is only really reasonable either over OCTGN or on weekends. As such, we typically play 2 or 3 sessions a month, at the most.

I've been fishing for interest at my FLGS, but the scene there is dominated by FNM and weekly Digimon tournaments, so I haven't been able to find traction there. It's hard to lure somebody away from a game they're already heavily invested in, you know. No amount of offering demo sessions will garner interest if somebody isn't looking to change games or try a new one out.

I'm mostly okay with this situation, though -- playing with my regular opponent is a lot of fun, and I've got the OCTGN tournaments here as an outlet for getting some new opponents from a different meta to play against. That doesn't change the fact that I think I got a chance to play my WLA decks three times each, and I had about four games with Runner and three with Corp to choose an iteration to commit to for the current OCTGN tourney in TA. And now, Cyber Exodus is upon us.
 
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Samuel Hinz
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Rithrin wrote:
Some people only have opportunity to play a handful of times per month, and the rapidly changing meta ends up leaving them behind. There was a tournament last weekend in my area, but I never attended because my regular playgroup could only get their schedules to overlap enough for two or three games - hardly enough testing to justify paying an entry fee.

If we had less data packs or the cards weren't so wildly swingy, this wouldn't be an issue. Guess I'm not FFG's target audience, though...


I mean it all depends on what your goal is. you could have played in the tourny and just had fun. I'm sure by the end of it you would have had a good idea whether your decks were good or not. Or you could have used some old favourite decks prior to the latest datapack or 2.

As discussed the datapacks will be less swingy as more come out. But i don't think there have really been any major shifts in the meta anyway (I don't have cyber exodus), more expansions of some previously less fleshed out ideas.

Thats me though.
 
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Martin Presley
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Not every data pack really shifts the meta/playspace significantly. I believe Cyber Exodus is the first pack to actually *change* the game, rather than simply refine it, and it's not that huge a change, to be honest. Emergency Shutdown is big, but not game-changing. Big ICE like Tollbooth and Archer will continue to be good, while Janus was never good in the first place. Corps will probably invest a little more in HQ protection against Shapers and Anarchs, since Emergency Shutdown is pretty splashable, but that's hardly the end-of-the-world Mayan apocalypse some people insist it is.
 
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Samuel Hinz
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Kaffis wrote:
abodi wrote:
General_Norris wrote:
I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy to fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck befoer a new expansion is out.

Changes will become smaller as the pool grows but it's still too fast. I would rather have expansions every two months.


sounds like you need to play more. ninja

And, if his situation is at all like mine, I'm sure he'd like to.

While I've introduced the game to several of my friends, none but my step-brother have taken *such* a shine to it that they've gone out and bought it themselves. Said step-brother lives an hour away, so playing with him is only really reasonable either over OCTGN or on weekends. As such, we typically play 2 or 3 sessions a month, at the most.

I've been fishing for interest at my FLGS, but the scene there is dominated by FNM and weekly Digimon tournaments, so I haven't been able to find traction there. It's hard to lure somebody away from a game they're already heavily invested in, you know. No amount of offering demo sessions will garner interest if somebody isn't looking to change games or try a new one out.

I'm mostly okay with this situation, though -- playing with my regular opponent is a lot of fun, and I've got the OCTGN tournaments here as an outlet for getting some new opponents from a different meta to play against. That doesn't change the fact that I think I got a chance to play my WLA decks three times each, and I had about four games with Runner and three with Corp to choose an iteration to commit to for the current OCTGN tourney in TA. And now, Cyber Exodus is upon us.



Absolutely, I consider myself very lucky to have found a (Mostly) dedicated Netrunner group. Prior to the group, my chances to play were low. (My group has a Netrunner and Starwars split. but netrunner certainly has the edge in players ATM.)

My advice would be to forget trying to lure your friends in if they are luke warm to it, but to locate other netrunner players. between bgg,ffg and cardgamedb. You should be able to locate or organise a group nearby.

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Evelyn S.
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astroglide wrote:
sniktsnikt wrote:
General_Norris wrote:
I think mothly changes in the card pool is way, way, wayyy to fast, the metagame can't settle and you can properly test a new deck befoer a new expansion is out.

Changes will become smaller as the pool grows but it's still too fast. I would rather have expansions every two months.

yeah but from a business standpoint ffg is wise to keep the frenzy for new cards going. without something as established as friday night magic, magic online and a pro tour every other card game publisher only has new cards to generate interest in their game.

From a business standpoint, it is wise to align their decisions with the interests of their (would-be) customers. The two are not in theoretical conflict.


Except many of us kind of like the monthly shifts and opportunities for rebuilds.
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Scott C
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abodi wrote:
My advice would be to forget trying to lure your friends in if they are luke warm to it, but to locate other netrunner players. between bgg,ffg and cardgamedb. You should be able to locate or organise a group nearby.


Oh, I've been playing a match or two with friends to introduce them, and then leaving it alone if they don't ask about playing more. It's really the FLGS that I've been trying to figure out how to fish for some interest at.

Otherwise, I think it's simply that my area of Ohio is a dead zone. Columbus appears to have some action, Cleveland as well, and perhaps a few players in Cincinnati. Investigating the area, I've found out there's a couple guys that play on the complete other side of town in Dayton, but unfortunately, they do so on a night that I can't join them and it's an hour and a half round trip to their play location anyways.
 
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Wabi Sabi Will

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Escapade wrote:
Where are all these crazy over-reactionary discussions? The Archer thing, as explained by OP, makes perfect sense. There's a powerful ice with a fair cost, and requires setup before you can use it. That's what makes it balanced. Then there's a way to shut it down, and require that setup to be done again before you can reuse it. That's a huge liability when that card exists in what's already the strongest faction. It may become not worth its setup. But then when you have the counter to the counter in Oversight, not only does Shutdown become not that bad, but it also gives you a way to bypass its otherwise annoying setup.

When you have a tiny pool, each addition is hugely significant and can cause large changes in meta.

What would be crazy and over the top is if you never played Archer because FAO exists.


I must have missed it. What does Oversight AI do?
 
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