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Subject: Public Sympathy - Its place in the meta and general discussion rss

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Ron
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I don't feel I have enough experience with the game yet to really get a sense for how such a card will sway the meta, so I came here to listen in on general musings/discussion on the card.

Now, my first impressions of this card is how strong I think it is. Not only for its ability to reduce the effectiveness of damage on the runner, but also that it increases the # of options the runner has available to them at any moment. For example, it becomes viable to keep those extra Stimhacks in the hand in preparation for a late game agenda swipe - not to mention negate the effect of the resulting brain damage if attempted in the early-mid game.

Of course, the corporation has their equivalent - Research Station - and it's not like that is seeing an overwhelming amount of play.

So - what do you think about Public Sympathy and its impact on the game?
 
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Aaron s
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Of course its also a Resource and at the very least, NBN will get rid of it easily.
 
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Scott C
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
pvtparts wrote:
Of course, the corporation has their equivalent - Research Station - and it's not like that is seeing an overwhelming amount of play.

So - what do you think about Public Sympathy and its impact on the game?

To put it bluntly, Research Station doesn't see play because the Corp doesn't lose hand-size and can't be flatlined with an empty hand. Upgrades are also much easier to trash (forcing you to play down or discard the extra cards by the end of your next turn) than Resources are, because successful runs are generally easier to come by than stuck tags on the Corp's turn.

As for the impact it'll have? Freer Stimhack use and some ignoring Bioroid brain damage subs even when clicks are available; probably some more aggressive tagging attempts in Jinteki to keep it out of play.

It also might edge into Plascrete Carapace and (lol) Net Shield usage, most likely by virtue of displacing them in decks even though it's somewhat inferior to either Plascrete, though more broadly applicable by far.
 
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David Jackman
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Syphus wrote:
Of course its also a Resource and at the very least, NBN will get rid of it easily.


say the runner has 7 cards in hand then it gets trashed on the corps turn. When does the runner have to discard down to 5?
 
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Aaron s
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Saan wrote:
Syphus wrote:
Of course its also a Resource and at the very least, NBN will get rid of it easily.


say the runner has 7 cards in hand then it gets trashed on the corps turn. When does the runner have to discard down to 5?


At the end of his turn, I asked that somewhere else.
 
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Your hand size is only checked at the ends of your turns.
 
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Billy Martin
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
I don't think you have to worry too terribly much about the meta when evaluating Public Sympathy. It doesn't really counter anything, except perhaps decks that try to kill you with brain damage. What it does do is combo with anything that lets you draw a lot of cards and it works well in decks that want to draw a lot of cards (particularly decks that draw in order to search for specific cards such as breakers).

Public Sympathy / Wyldside will be a good combo that you want to have.

Public Sympathy / Deisel will be a decent combo.

Public Sympathy in "draw your deck" style Shaper decks (typically that use Kate as their ID) will also be decent as it allows you to draw for your rig without discarding along the way.

But regardless you will include Public Sympathy or not depending on what your deck does not so much on what you expect from the corp. Public Sympathy/Wyldside decks will soft counter net damage/meat damage and make you more resilient to flatlining but only as a side effect to their main function which is allowing you to draw and keep more cards.
 
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Chris Denney
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
I think the only deck this auto-includes into is the Noise Infection deck that doesn't use breakers besides Crypsis. I think in that deck, it's going to be a house in the midgame after you've set up your Wyldside.
 
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Martin Presley
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
It won't change that much, as early damage still will be very scary, and will only give a small increase in the ability to 'tank' late-game. It's good with certain combos (like Wyldside), but will not change the gamespace/metagame much.
 
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Scott C
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Jopejope, the thing I think it's important to keep in mind is that increased hand size still has to discard cards just as often once Wyldside fills them up.

The only real benefit is that the constraints for "I really don't want to discard this, but I'm out of room to hold onto stuff" aren't quite as tight. You're more likely to have a disposable card out of 8 than you are out of 6, as it were. But you're still drawing 2 cards a turn once you hit your max.
 
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Chris Denney
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Kaffis wrote:
Jopejope, the thing I think it's important to keep in mind is that increased hand size still has to discard cards just as often once Wyldside fills them up.

The only real benefit is that the constraints for "I really don't want to discard this, but I'm out of room to hold onto stuff" aren't quite as tight. You're more likely to have a disposable card out of 8 than you are out of 6, as it were. But you're still drawing 2 cards a turn once you hit your max.
But you are going to be hitting your max at a much lower rate too since the turn you play it, you'll most likely have 2 empty spaces in your hand and I imagine that deck probably doesn't hold onto cards very long anyway. Also, imagine this in multiples, each one becoming subsequently better.
 
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Ben Asher
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Lenney81 wrote:
Also, imagine this in multiples, each one becoming subsequently better.


Are any of them better than the X cards you remove from the deck to include this? What do you cut? As a corp, I'd be happy to see this card just about every game, knowing that something potentially threatening was removed from the deck to make room for that larger hand. And, if the goal is to run around with a giant 11 card hand, it sounds like you're not being nearly as aggressive as you should.
 
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Chris Denney
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
beelzeben wrote:
Lenney81 wrote:
Also, imagine this in multiples, each one becoming subsequently better.


Are any of them better than the X cards you remove from the deck to include this? What do you cut? As a corp, I'd be happy to see this card just about every game, knowing that something potentially threatening was removed from the deck to make room for that larger hand. And, if the goal is to run around with a giant 11 card hand, it sounds like you're not being nearly as aggressive as you should.
Well, you obviously aren't playing Jinteki. hehe.. No I think you're probably right. I don't foresee ever playing more than 2 of these and probably just one to start with. I really like playing Stimhack in my Noise deck, but I rarely use more than just one for a final push on Archives. This card might make it possible to streamline the aggressive approach and use 3 Stimhack for more mid-game wins.
 
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Ben Asher
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Lenney81 wrote:
Well, you obviously aren't playing Jinteki.


You're correct, although I do toy with flatlining the runner here and there. My point is that cards in your hand that are sitting there waiting to soak up the damage I'm threatening are cards you're not playing. If you're hiding stimhacks in your grip for later use, any damage you take could still force you to discard them. Any given card may be less likely to be discarded due to damage, but I don't think that's particularly important.
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Chris Denney
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
beelzeben wrote:
Lenney81 wrote:
Well, you obviously aren't playing Jinteki.


You're correct, although I do toy with flatlining the runner here and there. My point is that cards in your hand that are sitting there waiting to soak up the damage I'm threatening are cards you're not playing. If you're hiding stimhacks in your grip for later use, any damage you take could still force you to discard them. Any given card may be less likely to be discarded due to damage, but I don't think that's particularly important.
So are we talking about a scenario strictly against Jinteki at this point? I don't think against Jinteki you really need the 3 Stimhacks so they would be the perfect card to sandbag with. Idk.. I'm confused. What point are you trying to make now? I get that I would have to cut a few cards to make this fit, and that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make. My current Noise deck has plenty of wiggle room as it is anyway so I'm excited to try this out.
 
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Ben Asher
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Lenney81 wrote:
What point are you trying to make now?


Cards held in hand to 'absorb' damage are by necessity not actually being played.

Holding extra cards 'just because' also means those cards aren't being played.

Cards that aren't being played don't make you win. (in the case of damage absorption, they may make you not lose, for the moment).
 
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Chris Denney
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
beelzeben wrote:
Lenney81 wrote:
What point are you trying to make now?


Cards held in hand to 'absorb' damage are by necessity not actually being played.

Holding extra cards 'just because' also means those cards aren't being played.

Cards that aren't being played don't make you win. (in the case of damage absorption, they may make you not lose, for the moment).
Your initial question was this: "Are any of them better than the X cards you remove from the deck to include this? What do you cut?" I am inclined to say yes, it is better than the X cards I would remove from the deck to include it, but idk what to cut yet. I haven't had the time to break it down and see.

I'm still confused by where you ended up taking this discussion b/c you didn't answer my other question. Are we talking about a scenario where it's Noise vs Jinteki? What scenario's are you attempting to claim this is a bad card in? I am willing to concede that there are probably very many where it's not optimal, which is precisely why I run Aesop's Pawnshop. I do not, however, care to debate w/ you on pseudo decklists or strategies. I'm excited to try it, but I would rather hold judgement till game night.
 
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Ben Asher
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
Lenney81 wrote:
Are we talking about a scenario where it's Noise vs Jinteki?


You may be, but I'm not

Lenney81 wrote:
What scenario's are you attempting to claim this is a bad card in?


I'm claiming it's not good in just about any scenario. This could just be a reflection of my aggressive play style and my view that this card appears to be a loss of tempo and rather defensively oriented. For defense, I prefer the single click required to play Plascrete Carapace, rather than the 4 clicks necessary to benefit from Sympathy (click to play, then 3 clicks to draw cards to replace Sympathy in hand and fill the two extra slots).

While Plascrete does not address the concern of death by brain damage, my experience has been that this is not important. It may become moreso if players find clever use for Edge of World, but that remains to be seen.
 
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Chris Denney
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Re: Public Sympathy - It's place in the meta and general discussion
beelzeben wrote:
Lenney81 wrote:
Are we talking about a scenario where it's Noise vs Jinteki?


You may be, but I'm not

Lenney81 wrote:
What scenario's are you attempting to claim this is a bad card in?


I'm claiming it's not good in just about any scenario. This could just be a reflection of my aggressive play style and my view that this card appears to be a loss of tempo and rather defensively oriented.
I get that in most cases it is, but in the one I mentioned I fail to see why you can't concede the point. Stimhack is incredibly powerful. I don't doubt we would agree on that. It's the most efficient source of credits in the current card pool given to the runner. That being said, it gets incredibly inefficient in multiples w/o a counter to brain damage. This could be that counter, but only testing will tell.
 
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Mat Nowak
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Public Sympathy is pretty much an auto-include in all my runner decks. I always include either 2 or 3 of them depending on my deck composition. 3 if I'm playing a big draw deck.

A larger handsize means more options and the ability to take greater amounts of damage. That makes it much more lucrative than any of the defense strictly cards like Net Shield and Plascrete Carapace.

How many times have you been holding onto 5 cards and were reluctant to draw because you didn't want to have to discard anything? Or wanted to use Diesel during that same situation?

Public Sympathy expands your options and simultaneously provides defense making it invaluable.
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Steven Tu
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The fear of discard is an irrational and mostly bad habit to have - if you're always holding cards because you may want them later, you probably have a deck that isn't very well balanced - either in economy, in having more events than you should play, in more hardware/programs than you need, or whatever.

Public Sympathy is a hard counter for jinteki damage, but if you're using it to "keep more options", i'd say you should rather look at how to make your deck tighter - cards should be able to be played, discarded cards only suck if you NEED them later, but a deck of 45 shouldn't have more than 5 cards you constantly need later.
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Malefact
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Mateui wrote:
Public Sympathy is pretty much an auto-include in all my runner decks. I always include either 2 or 3 of them depending on my deck composition. 3 if I'm playing a big draw deck.

A larger handsize means more options and the ability to take greater amounts of damage. That makes it much more lucrative than any of the defense strictly cards like Net Shield and Plascrete Carapace.

How many times have you been holding onto 5 cards and were reluctant to draw because you didn't want to have to discard anything? Or wanted to use Diesel during that same situation?

Public Sympathy expands your options and simultaneously provides defense making it invaluable.


I was considering Public Sympathy for a Kate deck for this reason, but I also thought that one of the things that Personal Workshop could do for you would be to take "unplayable" cards (extra breakers, plascretes, expensive hardware) out of your hand and keep them reasonably safe. It would be hard to tell without playing with the cards, but I'd have thought that PW might serve the purpose of freeing up hand space without having to run Public Sympathy?

 
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Jessey
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Tuism wrote:
The fear of discard is an irrational and mostly bad habit to have - if you're always holding cards because you may want them later, you probably have a deck that isn't very well balanced - either in economy, in having more events than you should play, in more hardware/programs than you need, or whatever.


This a million times. I am very happy my first deck was Wyldside Noise and I still encourage friends who I see struggle with "discarding" to build and play a similar style of deck for a week to help them get over it. I think of it as Noise's Discard Therapy (it's also way too fun).

Quote:
Public Sympathy is a hard counter for jinteki damage, but if you're using it to "keep more options", i'd say you should rather look at how to make your deck tighter - cards should be able to be played, discarded cards only suck if you NEED them later, but a deck of 45 shouldn't have more than 5 cards you constantly need later.


As a Jinteki player, I would hesitate to call it a "hard counter". Now, I'll be the first to admit that my goal isn't to flatline with damage, but to use damage as a threat that the runner has to deal with (and recover from) to buy me time to score adenda's on the swift. If they happen to run headlong into a Junebug and kick-it, awesome.

So, seeing a Runner play Public Sympathy (without a draw engine) means to me that the runner just gave me more time (the clicks they will spend to fill up to their new lofty handsize). If they have a draw engine, I still don't see it making a big splash to me.
 
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Steven Tu
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OK, sure it's not a hard counter to jinteki in general, but certainly to jinteki flatline. Everyone plays the big J differently, if you don't aim to flatline, that's you. Another player may aim to flatline. As I do

Even if I have Public Sympathy, if I'm not expecting to flatline from 3x Neural EMPs from his hand, I'll still only draw up to 3/4 in any realistic situation, to prepare for a Snare or Junebug, before running or ending turn. Unless I'm going to Maker's Eye or Medium or Nerve Agent to dig deep into the cards.
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Mat Nowak
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Sure, you can put cards onto Personal Workshop to free up your hand but when you are holding duplicate cards like extra copies of your ice breakers that you don't need to install it makes more sense to hold onto those as a buffer against any potential damage rather than just discarding them because you are forced to due to handsize limits.

Say you're taking 1 damage. Would you rather lose 1 card out of 5 which you all want or 1 out of 7 where 2 of those are extra copies that you don't mind losing?
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