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Subject: Snowflake — Card Analysis rss

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Aleksi Laitinen
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It's been claimed on these forums several times that Snowflake only makes you lose credits if the runner simply spends 0c every time he runs to it. This is assuming that you even want the run to end and the runner knows it. It also costs the runner a click to make a run that he would otherwise not have made. The low cost also gives Snowflake a tiny surprise advantage, as not many ice cost 2c to end a run (and Ice Wall only has 1 strength). This paragraph pretty much sums up the point why losing that credit is not a bad thing and why Snowflake can be better than Wall of Static, but I'm going to jack in to a more thorough analysis anyway, just for the joy of doing it!

Let's compare Snowflake to Wall of Static: Snowflake costs 2c less to rez, and generally speaking, it either costs you 1c to end the run or it additionally costs the runner 1c to break it. If you know that the runner just wants to spend your credits by running to it and spending 0c every time, you can pay that 1c twice and still make Snowflake cost the same amount of credits as Wall of Static. On top of that, the runner just lost some clicks that he wouldn't otherwise have spent on the runs. However, if you really want to stop the runner from accessing a server, Wall of Static is safer, and on the long run, possibly even cheaper than Snowflake. Then again, Snowflake is Jinteki ice.

Because you know what's behind the ice, it's probably easier for you to bluff the amount of credits you spend than it is for the runner to do so, and therefore, if you really want the run to end, you have a good chance of making it happen. You could even pay that 2c if you absolutely need the run to end, or in some cases, if the runner believes you are desperate to end it, you can convince him to spend that 2c, thinking that you'll probably try the least obvious choice, while you spend nothing. If there is no agenda or valuable asset on the server, you can simply spend nothing on Snowflake, which either ends the run if the runner thinks you're trying to stop him by paying, or in the worst case scenario, lets the runner get to your trap for free.

Assuming he runs there at all.

Let's look at a few scenarios, with no barrier breakers in play.

1) You have a trap on a remote server and an unrezzed Snowflake protecting it. The runner encounters Snowflake, and you rez it for 1c. You spend 1c. Runner spends nothing. Run ends.

What does this mean? Were you trying to end the run, knowing that the runner would spend nothing just to see how much you'd spend? There might be something valuable on the server, since you spent money, possibly to protect it. If he calls your bluff and doesn't run again, good for him. But he'll never know for sure.

Another run on the same server. You spend nothing. If the runner spends nothing, he gets to your trap, and probably won't access it seeing that you spent nothing this time (or accesses it if he can safely soak any damage it might do). But will he spend nothing, seeing that you were spending credits to end the previous run? Every time the runner runs and spends credits on the Snowflake, and you spend nothing, it's suddenly the runner who's losing clicks and credits to Snowflake. Not you. All you need to do is to convince him to keep running to it. If he doesn't, advance your Junebug behind it twice to catch his attention on it again. He still doesn't run? Trick of Light. Or if you're brave with a good poker face, you merely advanced your "Junebug", leave it like that, and when he least expects it, boom, score that agenda for 1 net damage.

2) You have a rezzed asset, let's say Melange Mining Corp, on a remote server. If it was protected by a rezzed Wall of Static, there would be no use running there at all. If it was a rezzed Snowflake instead, the runner would have a chance at trashing the MMC. If the runner has only 1c, he can be quite sure you'll spend that 1c to end the run (no use getting to MMC with 0c), and won't run there at all, making the Snowflake better than Wall of Static (since it cost less to rez). Even if the runner has 2c, he can still be quite sure that you'd spend the 2c to safely preserve your MMC and make the runner lose a click for the run. If he has 3c or more, it becomes a bit of a gamble mostly for the runner, as he needs to spend a click for the run that potentially fails anyway. On top of that, he doesn't always really know if you're even going to use the MMC on your next turn. If you really need to save the MMC, Wall of Static would be safer here.

3) You have a Snowflake protecting your R&D. Sure, the runner can keep running there and spend 0c every time to force you to spend 1c if you want to stop him from accessing it. This costs the runner a click. I'm fine with that. If it was a Wall of Static, he simply wouldn't run there at all, saving the click. As a runner, if I ran there, I'd rather access that card (or multiple cards) from R&D, even if it costs me credits.

4) You have a Snowflake protecting your HQ. The situation is almost the same as with R&D, except that running the HQ might be more beneficial for the runner, especially if he has some HQ effects, like Gabe. This means that when running to HQ, the runner would even more likely want to break that Snowflake than he would when running to R&D. On top of that, you know what's in your HQ (unlike with R&D), so you can simply spend 0c whenever you're fine with him running there... Or do spend 2c, to make him want to run there again, then spend nothing, and waste his clicks for free. "There must be agendas there since he's willing to pay to deny access!" When you actually want to protect your HQ, Snowflake becomes a bit of a gamble if the runner does run there, and Wall of Static would again be better.


In conclusion, the fact that there is a smaller chance for the runner to make it through Snowflake than for the corp to stop him with it will often convince the runner not to run to the Snowflake at all in order to save the click for something more useful. This makes Snowflake simply a cheaper Wall of Static most of the time, and the rare cases where the runner tries to gamble his way through it, you still have the advantage of knowing what the Snowflake is actually protecting.

As the game progresses, it's not unheard of that the runner has a barrier breaker in his deck, and once that Corroder pops to his rig, it's often much safer for him to just break the Snowflake for 2c than take the 2/3 chance of failure (Ice Wall would only cost 1c to break). At that point, it's rather unlikely that the corp has lost more tempo for the Snowflake than he would have to a Wall of Static, and from that point on, he'll gain more tempo with Snowflake than with an Ice Wall. This often makes Snowflake better or equal to Wall of Static, and less often a bit worse. Ice Wall could be better in early game, but it's an ice from another faction. Snowflake's influence cost of two doesn't make it worthy of splashing (unless, perhaps, if you need six "Walls of Static" for some reason), but in a Jinteki deck, it seems like a good alternative to Wall of Static.
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Billy Martin
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Snowflake is only bad by itself. If you put any ice in front of it then it almost becomes a defacto Wall of Static. So you essentially save 2 credits on rez cost for the penalty of needing another piece of ice to go with it. It's kinda like Chum only not quite as good.

A lot of Jinteki ice (Snowflake, Chum, Sensei, Cell Portal) has this property. Doesn't work by itself, but decent when combined with at least one other ice.

The thing you have to account for with all these ice (aside from the risk of potentially not drawing another ice to go with them) is the cost in clicks, cards, and credits of installing those other ice along with them. When you factor that in, Snowflake doesn't seem so cheap. What Jinteki needs (and what I suspect they will soon get) is a card that lowers the install cost of ice. Then you can build up huge forts of these combo ice in a very cost effective manner.
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Aleksi Laitinen
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The entire analysis was made assuming that the Snowflake is the only ice protecting the server, and the conclusion was that it can often be better than Wall of Static, since it costs less, and has the exact same effect most of the time (runner not wanting to run there without a barrier breaker, or alternatively trading a click for the loss of one credit from the corp).
 
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jopejope wrote:
What Jinteki needs (and what I suspect they will soon get) is a card that lowers the install cost of ice.


I hope so.

We've seen two cards that lower the REZ cost (Akitaro Watanabe, Brain Trust), but getting the ICE onto the server in the first place is bankrupting Jinteki.
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Billy Martin
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jopejope wrote:

The thing you have to account for with all these ice (aside from the risk of potentially not drawing another ice to go with them) is the cost in clicks, cards, and credits of installing those other ice along with them. When you factor that in, Snowflake doesn't seem so cheap.


I should also point out the obvious fact that you can build your deck to exploit and minimize these costs.

For example, Chum+Snowflake is a great combo, because they both require another ice so they can be that for each other. Chum+Snowflake is basically just as stoppy as Chum+Wall of Static but 2 credits cheaper.

Another good combo is Snowflake+Ichi. You want Ichi in front of something like Wall of Static anyway, so you can use Snowflake as a cheaper alternative.

Both of those help make Snowflake look better relative to Wall of Static but they still don't help the fact that Snowflake is useless until you put that 2nd ice down. Often this becomes critical.
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notyetsuperman wrote:
Doesn't jinteki have two cards that reduce the cost of ice? Braintrust... and Akitaro Watanabe?


Rez cost, not install cost
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Aleksi Laitinen
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I still don't understand your point of Snowflake being "useless" alone. It's still an ice that can end the run most of the time, which makes it less likely for the runner to make that run in the first place. In a Jinteki deck, you don't always even want to end the run, and what better way than to "accidentally" not end it. The runner won't know if you did it on purpose or if you simply had bad luck.
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Billy Martin
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A1win wrote:
I still don't understand your point of Snowflake being "useless" alone. It's still an ice that can end the run most of the time, which makes it less likely for the runner to make that run in the first place. In a Jinteki deck, you don't always even want to end the run, and what better way than to "accidentally" not end it. The runner won't know if you did it on purpose or if you simply had bad luck.


Play with it/against it and you'll see what I mean. You overestimate the effectiveness of these mind games.

A1win wrote:
The entire analysis was made assuming that the Snowflake is the only ice protecting the server, and the conclusion was that it can often be better than Wall of Static, since it costs less, and has the exact same effect most of the time (runner not wanting to run there without a barrier breaker, or alternatively trading a click for the loss of one credit from the corp).


You'd be surprised how effective spending a click to make the corp lose a credit can be. Particularly when you can do it over and over again. Particularly against Jinteki.
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El-ad David Amir
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A1win wrote:
I still don't understand your point of Snowflake being "useless" alone. It's still an ice that can end the run most of the time, which makes it less likely for the runner to make that run in the first place. In a Jinteki deck, you don't always even want to end the run, and what better way than to "accidentally" not end it. The runner won't know if you did it on purpose or if you simply had bad luck.

This is an excellent theory ... until you face an aggressive Runner that will be happy to repeatedly run your Snowflake'd server as long as you keep paying the Credit to keep him out.
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Billy Martin
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Think about the stakes involved when you are playing the Snowflake game when it is the only ice protecting something sensitive (like R&D or a remote with something you don't want the runner to get). If the corp wins the game then the runner lost a click and can just run again. If the corp loses the game the runner is in and the jig is up. It's just not sustainable.

Say I run Snowflake over and over again and each time I spend 0 credits and you spend 1 credit keeping me out. I can get in anytime just by spending 1 credit. Are you going to be able to correctly guess the run I do this? Are you going to take that risk? What's at stake if you lose?

Snowflake does not work on its own. If you're going to play it you need to craft a deck that minimizes its weaknesses and you need to play it with other ice, preferable ice that works well with it. Chum, Ichi, Edge of World, these are the kinds of cards you need to be playing to make Snowflake good.
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Patrick Jamet
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IirionClaus wrote:
A1win wrote:
I still don't understand your point of Snowflake being "useless" alone. It's still an ice that can end the run most of the time, which makes it less likely for the runner to make that run in the first place. In a Jinteki deck, you don't always even want to end the run, and what better way than to "accidentally" not end it. The runner won't know if you did it on purpose or if you simply had bad luck.

This is an excellent theory ... until you face an aggressive Runner that will be happy to repeatedly run your Snowflake'd server as long as you keep paying the Credit to keep him out.

YES ! Against Snowflake on outermost position, I bet 0 © 3/4 of time and 1 © 1/4 of time, decided randomly (and secretly) with a dice.

And I gladly explain my strategy to the Corp before. It's even more effective in this case.
 
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MD Chis
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Glad people are countering Snowflake being better than Wall of Static. I know when I see Snowflake I think to myself, "Thanks for the Vamp".

I appreciate the analysis, but you needed to break down Snowflake into the core concept.

It is a 1 cost, 3 strength barrier

It has a 67% chance of ending a given run assuming that at the beginning of the run the runner can not break it and that he actually wants to get in and both the corp and runner have 2 credits.

In the event the runner doesn't care about getting in, but would like to (he will not spend credits) it has a 100% chance of ending the run at a cost of 1c to the corp.

If the runner is in a position where draining the corp of credits is valuable, by running on Snowflake they set up a situation where the corp will generally either be forced to spend 4+ credits or make the decision to let the runner through. This negates the value of Snowflake.

If the runner wants to break Snowflake, it will cost them...
Aurora - 4c
Battering Ram - 2c
Corroder - 2c
Crypsis - 4c + token
Morningstar - 1c
Snowball - 3c

The conclusion should be more along the lines that Snowflake = Wall of Static if the runner does not want to play the game (they will break the routine), and has every intent of getting into the server. At all other times, it's value is a variable dependent on the runner's intentions that trends towards being disadvantageous to the corp.

Edit: gramer
 
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Aleksi Laitinen
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Well, my analysis is fully transparent (you can see my reasoning right there), and I don't have that many games played so far to base my thoughts on sheer experience.

On one hand, the runner spending an entire turn just to drain 1 credit from the corp while the corp draws a card doesn't seem like a good deal to the runner, as he isn't doing anything else meanwhile.

I suppose I underestimate the fact that the runner makes all the decisions considering running to the Snowflake, and the only advantage for the corp is the cheaper rez cost, which probably isn't that big of a deal in comparison.

Thanks for the replies. My game awareness has been broadened. laugh
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David Jensen
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Overall Snowflake costs the Corps money each run. Doesn't wall of Static accomplish the same thing?

This is maybe a nice cheap ICE for two runs; before its replaced with something better. You'd only want this in the first 3 draws of the game; and to do that you'd have to play 3 of them. ... I can't justify that.
 
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People use Vamp? That is weird I haven't seen it locally, in decklists, or in session reports.

Also running against Snowflake is not like using Vamp anyway, some key differences. I am assuming the corp pays 1 credit on average here:
1. The runner is converting clicks into lost credits for the corporation rather than credits. I generally value my clicks higher than 1 credit as the runner.

2. The runner can only convert 4 clicks at a time against Snowflake, Vamp lets you potentially bankrupt the corp. IMO the only way Vamp is a good card is if you cause a brankrupcy and then run/combo against the now un-rezable ICE, so this is a key difference.

3. Running against Snowflake is cheaper for the runner depending on how highly you value your clicks.
At 1:1 it is always cheaper to run on Snowflake.
At 2:1 it is cheaper to run on Snowflake up to 4 times (6 if you count draws).

I think Snowflake is usually better than Wall of Static since it costs 1/3 the amount. Both cards are weak in the mid-late game when you need more ICE to make a server strong, and Snowflake gets better in this situation. In the early game Snowflake can be weaker since it can cost the corp more to keep the runner out, but then again it allows for a wider range of first turn ICE (normally you are limited to rezzing 2x3 cost ICE or 1xICE).
 
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slacks wrote:
People use Vamp? That is weird I haven't seen it locally, in decklists, or in session reports.

The typical use of vamp on OCTGN is after account siphon. Obliterating corp's bank.
 
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Steven Tu
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mdc273 wrote:

Edit: gramer


I LOVE this

And honestly, I'm so happy that I'm not the only one who's warning people off Snowflake. Sure, there are niche uses for it, and it may save you some credits to start, but against any runner who knows what he wants, a Jinteki spending 3 a turn to stop runs without erecting anything else is a dead Jinteki.

And I doubt another Faction would need a Snowflake.

Valuing clicks as whatever creds is all good and well, but the fact is: If the corp doesn't want you to get through (because what's behind it is valuable), it will spend at least 3 a turn to defend it. If you let the runner through then it's as good as no ICE. If you're spending 3 a turn, then you better hope you're drawing beanstalks, because you're hardly going to get the chance to find economy that gets you out of a flat credit situation.

The runner has 4 clicks, the corp has 3. If the corp can't convert the draw into creds (5 for a hedge, 2 for a pad, 0 for beanstalk, etc), the corp is dead in the water.

Niche uses such as using to bait traps is valid, but traps are costly and there's no guarantee the runner will take the bait. And as the runner I'll just draw back up anyway, and we're back on the same footing. Traps that doesn't kill doesn't matter, well, exaggerated, but half true.

Trust me, the total cost of a Snowflake in any given game WILL be more than 3, unless you're letting everything through.
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El-ad David Amir
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Tuism wrote:
Trust me, the total cost of a Snowflake in any given game WILL be more than 3, unless you're letting everything through.

I disagree- once the Runner got their Fractor they would often prefer to break Snowflake rather than play the game. Snowflake is deceptive since its cost makes it appear like an early-game Ice, where it's more of a mid- to late-game money sink on the Runner, or, alternatively, a nice combo piece with Chum.
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Frank Brooks
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Zhab wrote:
slacks wrote:
People use Vamp? That is weird I haven't seen it locally, in decklists, or in session reports.

The typical use of vamp on OCTGN is after account siphon. Obliterating corp's bank.


Yup and then you run a remote server you haven't run before and they can't rez any ice protecting it and you get in "for free". Vamp is actually quite useful since it lets you leverage your money directly at the corp. Vamp in Shaper with Magnum Opus...just saying.
 
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MD Chis
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IirionClaus wrote:
...Snowflake is deceptive since its cost makes it appear like an early-game Ice, where it's more of a mid- to late-game money sink on the Runner, or, alternatively, a nice combo piece with Chum.


Agreed. Snowflake is stronger when you get the addition of Chum, Sensei, or any other ice. Those definitely make it fall into the "runner is going to break it" category. They simply don't want to take a stupid chance that they broke that Ichi just for Snowflake to go off or take Chum damage. It's just not what the original premise of this thread was, so I tried to avoid the comment. You could argue that, in that regard, Snowflake is a twist on the Cell Portal concept.
 
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IirionClaus wrote:
Tuism wrote:
Trust me, the total cost of a Snowflake in any given game WILL be more than 3, unless you're letting everything through.

I disagree- once the Runner got their Fractor they would often prefer to break Snowflake rather than play the game. Snowflake is deceptive since its cost makes it appear like an early-game Ice, where it's more of a mid- to late-game money sink on the Runner, or, alternatively, a nice combo piece with Chum.


QFT. I think theres no argument to be made for the fact that snowflake as the only ice on a server early game is pretty bad news bears.


Moving On:

I'm curious as to how people are physically executing snowflake in their current metas? With a buddy i've been doing the punch number into cell phone, show each other phone screen.
 
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Aleksi Laitinen
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subtlesalmon wrote:
I'm curious as to how people are physically executing snowflake in their current metas? With a buddy i've been doing the punch number into cell phone, show each other phone screen.


Why not take 3 credit tokens, hide them behind your hand, flip over 0-3 of them to mark unused ones, and then reveal how many were left face up?


I wouldn't protect anything super valuable with a Snowflake, except occasionally when I wanted to take a calculated risk of the runner thinking that I'm still not protecting anything valuable with it, allowing me to score a seemingly unprotected agenda.

If a runner pounds into a Snowflake for two turns and corp spends 8c to deny access, then the corp's credits eventually "run out" (while in fact he might even have some in his hand), and the runner gets through "because the corp doesn't have any credits left for the Snowflake"... what are the chances that the runner still thinks it is a trap? The corp has basically lost 2 credits and drawn 2 cards, and nothing else has happened during those turns. Even if the trap didn't hit very hard, the corp would still benefit from it.

I refuse to give up on focusing on the use of mindgames in a Jinteki deck. It's the heart of the whole faction. If I wanted to play a safer game, I'd play another faction.

Example 1: Install Junebug under Snowflake. Advance. Advance. Down to 2 credits. Runner hammers the Snowflake. Down to 1 credit. Take 3 credits (can't advance 3 times so it can be a reasonable decision). Runner hammers the Snowflake. Down to 0 credits. Take 1 credit, do something with 2 actions (can't protect the server anymore so again it makes sense from the runner's perspective). Runner hammers the Snowflake, makes it through since I don't want to spend any credits; it's lost anyway. Accesses Junebug, 4 net damage. Or calls the bluff and doesn't access it, in which case I can take more credits again and make it seem like I can advance it on the next turn if he doesn't hammer it more... If he spent a random credit to gain access, then it would be an "accidental" access and he might even be more likely to access the Junebug since I was "trying" to protect it. And so on.

Example 2: Install agenda under Snowflake. Advance. Advance. Down to 2 credits. Runner hammers Snowflake. Down to 1 credit. Take 2 credits. Advance. Must be a trap since corp doesn't have enough money to deny access. Or it might not be a trap, but can I risk taking 6 net damage (even by drawing to 6 first)? (And it very well could be a trap, which it probably would most of the time. But if like 1/5 of the time it was an agenda and not a trap, would the runner really take the chance?)

Bottom line is, having no money can be an advantage to Jinteki. I think I'll replace my Hedge Funds with Beanstalk Royalties...

And I just love all that stuff. Still need to figure out ways to make it actually win more games than lose them.
 
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In example 1 what is the point of messing about with the snowflake? Just let the runner in by betting the 0 you expect them to and let them eat the Junebug.

Jinteki needs to keep creds on hand to trigger snare.

On topic, I used to be a supporter of snowflake, but I've since cut it from my decks. Why? Well, as has been noted it is at its best when it is not the outermost ice, regardless of what is in front of it. If the runner has paid to get to it, they won't risk the game and will pay to break it making it in mid/late game a cost efficient wall of static. The problem? After turn 3 if I draw it I would rather have drawn anything else. So, I cut it.
 
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A single Snowflake still works if the corp has just about any credit producing asset. This allows the corp to maintain Snowflake while getting "free" draws since the runner is just bashing against a wall instead of building a rig.

In Replicating Perfection Snowflake can work by itself on a remote server, again effectively giving the corp free draws if the runner chooses to bash against it.
 
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