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Subject: Chaos Theory and whatnot rss

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Travis R. Chance
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Let me preface this by saying, while I play a lot of this game, I have a weird aversion to Shaper. They just feel blah to me by comparison; I basically haven't played a Kat deck in some months. However, Cyber-Exodus brings some great cards to the fore--a good many of which I am more excited about for non-Shaper decks, to be honest. That said, I sat down today on a good night of four hours of sleep to try and bang out a Chaos Theory build.

Now I am well aware from reading posts here about the persistent grand-standing and soap box pontifications of players. So sharpen your pitchforks, my friends. I will explain some of my card choices after the list:

Chaos Theory


22xEVENTS:

3x Diesel
3x Test Run
3x Maker's Eye
3x Modded
2x Tinkering
3x Sure Gamble
3x Infiltration
2x Special Order (4inf)

9xHARDWARE:

2x Dinosaurus
2x Personal Touch
2x Rabbit Hole
3x Cyberfeeder

9xPROGRAM:

2x Magnum Opus
2x Gordian Blade
1x Pipeline
1x Snowball
1x Morningstar (4inf)
1x Femme Fatale (1inf)
1x Medium (3inf)

To begin my explanation for card choices: I did some digging online, and, to be honest, only found little flecks of gold amidst many, many ideas, a great deal of which left me feeling unimpressed. More core ideas here were:

1.) use Test Run for consistency/troubleshooting. I esp. like the Femme Fatale functioning as an Inside Job of sorts--though expensive, being able to flop this on the fly and then reset it to a diff piece of ICE is cool. I also like the single copy of Medium, once my rig is tough enough to let me pound their R&D (with Maker's obv assisting here). The Special Orders, while seemingly redundant, allow me a little more reach in finding that right breaker, freeing up Test Run to get Magnum Opus (or Medium, if the game allows such an opportunity). And, before this is mentioned, I do not like Nerve Agent in a deck like this; there is no reinforced reason to push HQ raids (like Criminal cards), therefore it seems lackluster to me here. Still though, this may just be a waste of influence.

2.) Tinkering Morningstar grossness. This was suggested in another thread. Obviously I want to slam this down on Dinosaurus and get to work. In terms of ICE being worrisome, I feel like this whole notion of using Yog here isn't a great one; the only justification really being Tollbooth, which is admittedly high in circulation. Being able to play Tinkering with Morningstar just seems absurd, but not so much that I would really want to play more than 2 copies presently--testing may suggest otherwise, but the lack of click economy isn't as spicy as Maker's Eye, for example.

3.) Dinosaurus. Beyond the above concept, this card just seems so good. I love it sucking up the 2mu on Morningstar, but it obviously can help bolster wimpy ICE like Pipeline and Snowball, in tandem with Personal Touch. This is another reason I like Special Order here, as it helps me to rummage up the right breaker to be hosted here.

4.) Money. I feel like this has a nice little economy. I am truly baffled at people's reluctance to play Modded, as it also saves you click economy. I am not on the Personal Workshop train, at all. This seems like a fine card for Kat, with her ability to mitigate tracing shenanigans. Opus is clearly the economic backbone here--why do people waste space in Shaper decks for Armitage again? Cyberfeeders seem solid here, though I am not in love with them. Infiltration also isn't my personal fav, but here, in my meta, Jinteki is the megacorp equivalent of Taylor Swift or some such shit, so it does give me a tiny edge in terms of faceplanting into a trap/ambush card.

I am playing 2 Rabbitholes, instead of 3, to help against trace decks, while not wasting a 3rd slot for the matches where it is irrelevant. Also, I hate when you rip into 2 of these; it hurts inside. On the whole, I should prob just pay for Trace and not waste the slots in my deck.

In short, here is what I am iffy about, so chime in:

3x Infiltration (I feel like 2x might be acceptable here; Uplink is too costly on Inf., and Lemuria doesn't give me the guarantees/the econ in a pinch)
3x Cyberfeeder
2x Rabbithole
MAYBE 1x Special Order

(Perhaps I should be rocking a 3rd Tinkering.)

Fire away!


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Aaron s
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As far as the Rabbit Hole, I solely put them in the deck to thin out the deck even more. You can grab them all in one go, and they make up somewhat for not having Kate's base link.
 
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x0 Rabbit Hole or x3 - not sure why you'd run any other combination.

Rabbit Hole acts like 1 card split into X parts across the deck, meaning you'll draw it and use it fast. Once it's out of the deck it thins the rest by the extra draws, so 3 means Chaos is essentially running a 38 card deck.

Also, +2 Link is JUST enough for the "requires 2 link" cards, and susceptible to power grid fluxuations and... checking the deck list you're not using that card, so never mind.

I also tend to like Crypsis in singleton-icebreaker decks... Just in case something goes horribly wrong.
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Travis R. Chance
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In a deck with 40 cards, this is a good/bad argument, I suppose. On one hand, it makes my deck even thinner, allowing me access to more relevant cards (but at a steep premium). On the other hand, in matches where link is irrelevant, suddenly you have 3 cards that do nothing, gumming up your lean build.

I have seen a lot of people playing 2, and I think it is a fine option many times. Not sure for this though.
 
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Travis R. Chance
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byronczimmer wrote:
x0 Rabbit Hole or x3 - not sure why you'd run any other combination.

Rabbit Hole acts like 1 card split into X parts across the deck, meaning you'll draw it and use it fast. Once it's out of the deck it thins the rest by the extra draws, so 3 means Chaos is essentially running a 38 card deck.

Also, +2 Link is JUST enough for the "requires 2 link" cards, and susceptible to power grid fluxuations and... checking the deck list you're not using that card, so never mind.

I also tend to like Crypsis in singleton-icebreaker decks... Just in case something goes horribly wrong.


Hmm. Testrun allows you to get a program back from the heap, so I can't imagine this being an issue.
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Other things to consider:

Helpful AI
Account Siphon
 
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Aaron s
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Action Phase wrote:
In a deck with 40 cards, this is a good/bad argument, I suppose. On one hand, it makes my deck even thinner, allowing me access to more relevant cards (but at a steep premium). On the other hand, in matches where link is irrelevant, suddenly you have 3 cards that do nothing, gumming up your lean build.

I have seen a lot of people playing 2, and I think it is a fine option many times. Not sure for this though.


Even where Link is irrelevant you still have three cards you can instantly pull out. Which means Rabbit Hole does what it does regardless. But, at this point Traces can still come in to play from any corp.
 
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Anthony Giovannetti
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Here are my thoughts.

1: You have it backwards, personal workshop is better in Chaos then Kate, because in Kate her ability does not trigger for all of the workshop stuff. In testing Workshop has been the stone cold nuts.

2: 2 Rabbit Holes makes no sense. Run 3 or none. Probably none with no pawnshops.

3: You have serious problems with the breakers. First of all there are very little, so drawing what you need will be a problem, even with the two special order. 6 breakers in the whole deck, and a lot of them are one ofs, so you have very little consistency. This is especially bad if your meta is Jinteki heavy as you say, since this deck is incredible vulnerable to bad discards.

4: Continuing with the inconsistency problems (the reason people will run an armitage and Opus, although I don't think Chaos Theory needs to do that) you only have 2 Opus. That card is certainly a 3 of, being so vital to getting your engine going.
 
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Travis R. Chance
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SneakySly wrote:
Here are my thoughts.

1: You have it backwards, personal workshop is better in Chaos then Kate, because in Kate her ability does not trigger for all of the workshop stuff. In testing Workshop has been the stone cold nuts.

2: 2 Rabbit Holes makes no sense. Run 3 or none. Probably none with no pawnshops.

3: You have serious problems with the breakers. First of all there are very little, so drawing what you need will be a problem, even with the two special order. 6 breakers in the whole deck, and a lot of them are one ofs, so you have very little consistency. This is especially bad if your meta is Jinteki heavy as you say, since this deck is incredible vulnerable to bad discards.

4: Continuing with the inconsistency problems (the reason people will run an armitage and Opus, although I don't think Chaos Theory needs to do that) you only have 2 Opus. That card is certainly a 3 of, being so vital to getting your engine going.


About Rabbithole, it's like anything in life, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you WILL/SHOULD. Paying 4 to thin and paying 6 are very different things, esp. if the cards do little to nothing. As I stated in my explanation, I am aware that is it unconventional, but to say "it makes no sense" when I offered a reason as to why seems more like you disagree rather than it be defiant of all logic.

The argument that I have too little in the way of breakers also feels surprising to me, as I have 5 tutors. By the same logic that applies to Rabbithole, these cards allow for deck thinning, thereby improving my odds after the fact (grantes, Testrun puts it on top, but your a draw away from snatching it back). I will concede though, that drawing your breakers works better in tandem with tutors than straight searching for them exclusively. This isn't adding that Tinkering gives you additional value in finding "a" breaker, period. So, with tutors, I have potentially 11 breakers in a 40 card deck, with Diesel, and multiple deck thinners.

Lastly, Workshop is slow, slow, slow. It can make you prone to 2-for-1's (or worse). Admittedly, I have yet to mount this horse, but, at appearances, the idea of flopping out a card so the corp can see what is coming, waiting what should be more than 1 turn so you actually get any reduction, doesn't strike me as insane. Now, flopping in your hosted breaker in the nick of time, that seems okay

I listed what I think could go, so feel free to +/- away so I can get some ideas.
 
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Travis R. Chance
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Ah, I indeed had a 3rd Opus out, but shuffled into a stack of less desirable cards. I agree that this should be 3. Good catch!
 
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SneakySly wrote:
Here are my thoughts.

1: You have it backwards, personal workshop is better in Chaos then Kate, because in Kate her ability does not trigger for all of the workshop stuff. In testing Workshop has been the stone cold nuts.

2: 2 Rabbit Holes makes no sense. Run 3 or none. Probably none with no pawnshops.

3: You have serious problems with the breakers. First of all there are very little, so drawing what you need will be a problem, even with the two special order. 6 breakers in the whole deck, and a lot of them are one ofs, so you have very little consistency. This is especially bad if your meta is Jinteki heavy as you say, since this deck is incredible vulnerable to bad discards.

4: Continuing with the inconsistency problems (the reason people will run an armitage and Opus, although I don't think Chaos Theory needs to do that) you only have 2 Opus. That card is certainly a 3 of, being so vital to getting your engine going.


Economy cards:
Modded x3
Sure Gamble x3 (who let the kid with the dino-toy into the poker game?)
Magnum Opus x2
Infiltration (kinda) x3

Tutor cards:
Test Run x3
Special Order x2
Diesel x3 (kinda)

I'm not overly worried about the singleton icebreakers, especially with all the tutors. It might be worth putting an extra Femme Fatale in there actually, you can Test Run the FF from the heap for spot-issues AND keep one up permanently.



 
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Anthony Giovannetti
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1:
About rabbithole, the point is that it is lower value. The card has more thinning value as a 3 of, helps trace more as a 3 of. Link 3 is much better then link 2.

2:
Tutors thinning does not improve your odds of drawing breakers after the fact they lower it.

They thin your deck of the card type you are looking for.

Say you have no breakers in hand (not that uncommon an occurrence in this deck)and draw a special order.

You play it and fetch up a breaker and play it. Your deck now has a lower chance of drawing relevant breakers, since getting your breaker cost you the tutor and the actual breaker, so now there are 2 less breaker draws in your deck instead of one had you just drawn the breaker naturally.

3:
Workshop decks are fast. You should try it out, the card is insane and borderline overpowered.


 
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Travis R. Chance
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Sneaky, can you post your reasoning for Workshop other than "fast/overpowered?" Perhaps I am missing something, but I see the drawbacks in bold, and they don't entice me.

Also, I fully understand how tutors work, as a guy who plays Magic. My point wasn't isolated to just breakers, but, rather, the notion of thinning when combined with very efficient draw like Diesel. 40 cards, 11 potential breakers including tutors means a quarter of my deck is breakers (not outright, but you get my drift).

Again, post some suggested switches. Your replies are vague in this area. I know that 3 is greater than 2. For my third attempt, you make no comment about having more of a card that does nothing, and paying a total of 6 for it to do nothing/clogging up draws. I am hedging my bets here that 2 can be helpful with the occasional investment to break a trace if needed and that I won't waste 6 credits when I don't have a PAwnshop on the back end to help me recoup my expense. Blindly including an additional copy because I can tutor up to 2 more copies is A factor; I have stated some other factors, though you seem to be more interested in telling me that 3 is higher than 2, so allow the same: drawing 3 dead cards is worse than 2; and paying 6 for those dead cards is more than 4.
 
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byronczimmer wrote:
SneakySly wrote:
Here are my thoughts.

1: You have it backwards, personal workshop is better in Chaos then Kate, because in Kate her ability does not trigger for all of the workshop stuff. In testing Workshop has been the stone cold nuts.

2: 2 Rabbit Holes makes no sense. Run 3 or none. Probably none with no pawnshops.

3: You have serious problems with the breakers. First of all there are very little, so drawing what you need will be a problem, even with the two special order. 6 breakers in the whole deck, and a lot of them are one ofs, so you have very little consistency. This is especially bad if your meta is Jinteki heavy as you say, since this deck is incredible vulnerable to bad discards.

4: Continuing with the inconsistency problems (the reason people will run an armitage and Opus, although I don't think Chaos Theory needs to do that) you only have 2 Opus. That card is certainly a 3 of, being so vital to getting your engine going.


Economy cards:
Modded x3
Sure Gamble x3 (who let the kid with the dino-toy into the poker game?)
Magnum Opus x2
Infiltration (kinda) x3

Tutor cards:
Test Run x3
Special Order x2
Diesel x3 (kinda)

I'm not overly worried about the singleton icebreakers, especially with all the tutors. It might be worth putting an extra Femme Fatale in there actually, you can Test Run the FF from the heap for spot-issues AND keep one up permanently.





What would you yank out here, and what would you put in, Byron?
 
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SneakySly wrote:
1:

Workshop decks are fast. You should try it out, the card is insane and borderline overpowered.




A few questions:

1.) How is this card mid to late game? Are you happy to see multiples?

2.) Are you running Modded in the same deck? I'm not seeing an immediate synergy in the 2. I suppose Test Run kind of jives with Workshop if it's big and slow. Example: Test Run your Femme, bypass, put it on top, draw, then put it in the workshop for later.

3.) As I am playing cyberfeeders, which I know they do different things but are still ultimately saving you economy in a general sense, are you playing these? If not, what economy cards are you playing?
 
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Action Phase wrote:
What would you yank out here, and what would you put in, Byron?


Now you're makin' me work.

You've actually got a little too much non-Magnum Opus economy, since once you get MO in place it's going to stay for the duration.

Counting Rabbit Hole as 1 card taking up 2 slots (interesting way to think about it, I know)...

And Diesel as a non-card (draw/play yields draw/draw/draw)

You're effectively running a 36 card deck.

Economy: 11 cards of 36
That's... a lot, especially since the non-event card (Magnum Opus) is going to stick around and is represented 5 times in the deck (Test Run x3, MO x2). I'd probably drop 2 of the economy events. Modded only helps in setup - once you've got all the pieces in place it's a dead draw.

Tutors: 5 cards of 36
Technically I'd include the Diesel's in here as tutors given the small deck size, but we've already decreased the denominator, so we're good.

6 real breakers - one with a special (FF),

Medium at x1 is a little out of place. It's clear the intent is to Tutor for it, but only if you draw into a breaker suite naturally and don't need to tutor. I'm not really married to this card since the Maker's Eyes will handle deeper digs for you. If anything Imp would be a better choice.

Pipeline is only good in Dinosaurus, but Morningstar wants to be there too. You've got the influence to splash in Ninja, yes?

As said, I'm not TOO terribly worried about this suite, I think it's playable provided you don't suffer early damage before the rig is ready.

I like the focus on events.

I like how 'thin' you can get Chaos - someone needs to feed that girl something besides Diesel and Vita-pro bars.



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Travis R. Chance
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So my thoughts are:

I love Modded for the additional click economy. I have some chubby ass breakers in here (as in expensive: Morningstar and Femme). So, in my head, if I am going to be confidently getting 2 from Opus, then this card, effectively is -5 (as it saves me the click to install, meaning I could get another 2 creds). I'd rather get this down in one go than sit it on a Workshop that could get blown up and let it tick away as the corp player plans around dealing with a Morningstar in the eyehole.

+1 Magnum (this should have been 3)
+1 Tinkering (this means that drawing any breaker helps
+1 Ninja (agreed)

-1 Pipeline
-2 Rabbit hole (I'll just pay the old fashioned way, or break them shits)
-3 Infiltration?
-1 Medium (such a neat idea, but, yeah, seems meh)

I'm on the fence with Cyberfeeder, but, then again, this deck plans to run a lot. I suppose it will fall under the economy umbrella, but I could prob spend my influence more wisely, though I am not certain on what. Also, I wonder how worthwhile Personal touch becomes when my plan is to load up a big breaker anyway?
 
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If you plan to run a lot, do you plan on gaining some Notoriety?
 
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Travis R. Chance
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Heh. I was thinking it is a nice stick in the eye for the aforementioned Jinteki jerks that you have to score 4 agendas against I dunno the correct number of these to play

As it stands, I have an influence open, and 4 open spaces in the list (not counting any Notoriety spots, of course). Gah. This is why I hate shaper!!!

I have seen Codecracker making some cameos in Shaper decks. I have this 1 influence floating, so maybe it is a nice solution to my local Jinteki meta woes.
 
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Anthony Giovannetti
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Action Phase wrote:
So my thoughts are:

I love Modded for the additional click economy. I have some chubby ass breakers in here (as in expensive: Morningstar and Femme). So, in my head, if I am going to be confidently getting 2 from Opus, then this card, effectively is -5 (as it saves me the click to install, meaning I could get another 2 creds). I'd rather get this down in one go than sit it on a Workshop that could get blown up and let it tick away as the corp player plans around dealing with a Morningstar in the eyehole.

+1 Magnum (this should have been 3)
+1 Tinkering (this means that drawing any breaker helps
+1 Ninja (agreed)

-1 Pipeline
-2 Rabbit hole (I'll just pay the old fashioned way, or break them shits)
-3 Infiltration?
-1 Medium (such a neat idea, but, yeah, seems meh)

I'm on the fence with Cyberfeeder, but, then again, this deck plans to run a lot. I suppose it will fall under the economy umbrella, but I could prob spend my influence more wisely, though I am not certain on what. Also, I wonder how worthwhile Personal touch becomes when my plan is to load up a big breaker anyway?


I actually like the gist of those changes. I would then cut the cybers and keep the medium. I would try to keep infiltrates if possible to deal with Jinteki especially. Cutting cyber should free up some slots.

On the separate issue of workshop: I really recommend playing with it as a test. You are right that you don't play it with modded. It basically allows you to very aggressively draw, makes your rig get set up much faster, provides bonus economy, and has incredible synergy with cards like Fem. All for only 1 credit (which it pays back almost immediately). It is only vulnerable against NBN, and even there you just play slightly more conservative with it.
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Kester J
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SneakySly wrote:
It basically allows you to very aggressively draw...


Yep, this is a big benefit for a "build then run" deck (and not immediately obvious). You don't need to be able to pay for cards when you draw them to host them on Workshop, so just play them onto it and draw more until you've got your whole rig - then pay for it all. It ends up acting like 3-4 extra hand size.
 
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Kester wrote:
SneakySly wrote:
It basically allows you to very aggressively draw...


Yep, this is a big benefit for a "build then run" deck (and not immediately obvious). You don't need to be able to pay for cards when you draw them to host them on Workshop, so just play them onto it and draw more until you've got your whole rig - then pay for it all. It ends up acting like 3-4 extra hand size.


Some of the terms that are being used here are a tad misleading: "aggressively draw," "not immediately obvious," "only NBN" etc. I understand what workshop does, and how crazy it could be with, say, something like Stimhack, where you are sneaking in an expensive card/having the option to flop a breaker on a run and use it. I get that you can just encrust it with cards. HOWEVER, a good deal isn't being said here:

1.) in terms of playing a "fast deck" deck, I see nothing quick about a card that requires you waiting 3 turns to get a return (to be fair, the second turn could be the click you used to pay for this). The aggressively drawing comment seems odd to me, as modded let's you get economy on creds and clicks, and it happens then, with no worry of disruption. To me, this is "fast" and most certainly "faster" 9 times out of 10. Drawing cards is something any runner can, and, the clicks you are spending to use Workshop. Are you not wanting to use said cards? If time is a resource in this game, not as in actions but in opportunity, this card is not fast at all unless you have something else, like Stimhack.

2.) More on the subject of opportunity, giving the corp player time to tailor their servers while you wait for a marginal rebate is a drawback, and a much bigger one than what is being made out here. Example, it isn't often you see a good runner use his last action to install a breaker/play Special Order, allowing the corp to have that little bit of extra info with which to optimize their turn. Almost always, it is better to play the breaker and then try and get some surprise value out of it immediately after. Not so with workshop.

3.) It is more than susceptible to other factions beyond NBN. Not running into Snares are we? Not playing against Posted Bounty? NBN is the biggest offender, but the direction of the game is moving in a way that would support the notion that trace/tags will matter more than they do in the now. And, giving the corp a 2-for-1 with an inbuilt action for having a tag is pretty bad.

4.) This card certainly loses value as the game progresses, as do a good many to be fair, but stacking up breakers here at a point where you can play them outright/your rig is already up should be a consideration. For those of you that play Magic, this is like Aether Vial: awesome in your opener/first few draws, and a dead brick any time after unless you are playing against the most brutal counterspell deck.

Again, I have no doubt this card can shine, but in a general sense, no. I do not believe it as terrifyingly broken as it has been made out to be in this thread, though I do appreciate the words and ideas, honestly.

 
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Okay, so I have been fiddling with this list all afternoon. This is where I am at:

CHAOS THEORY:

24xEVENTS:

3x Tinkering
3x Diesel
3x Maker's Eye
3x Modded
3x Test Run
2x Notoriety (these are good against this gout of Jinteki here in Indy)
2x Special Order (4inf)
3x Sure Gamble
2x Infiltration (these are too good in my local meta, unfortunately)

5xHARDWARE:

3x Dinosaurus (this card is too pivotal, me thinks-- a must draw)
2x Personal Touch

9xPROGRAM:

3x Magnum Opus
2x Gordian Blade
1x Snowball
1x Femme Fatale (1inf)
1x Morningstar (4inf)
1x Ninja (2inf)

This means I have 4 influence, and 2 card slots open. Granted, Infiltration is somewhat lackluster due to my stable economy. I am pretty much event crazy, which I dig, to be honest. I am pressing the Dinosaurus hosting a breaker/tinkering shenanigans here, but it should be fun.

The question remains, what do I spend this extra influence on? Esp. when I have 2 slots open in the deck. I have ran 1 random de ja vu in a few decks (usually as a 4th Inside Job), and it has been decent. I could, reliably, up my Special Order count here, though I don't want my tutors to blank late game. I was also thinking I could play 1 Net Shield since Jinteki is nuts here, swapping my Snowball out for a Corroder as a cheapie/backup fracter.

I could also just play 2 Forged Activation Orders or something disruptive like Emergency Shutdown.

I am pretty happy with this in concept. Any suggestions on how to fill these last slots/using my remain Influence?



 
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Extra FF -- Test Run it to bypass the 'new' ICE on the server.

I liked the Cyberfeeders too, not sure why they're gone.

Or 4 Inf? Account Siphon and a Helpful AI to get that extra boost you may need.
 
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