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Subject: Leia Organa's "leave play" templating rss

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Matt Lernout
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Here's one I'm sort of curious about. Why wasn't Leia's "If this unit leaves play" text templated as a Forced Reaction? It stands out to me as the only card that has action-like text without being keyworded as such.
How would timing work when it triggers at the same time one or more players decide to play a reaction to her leaving play?

Also, what are the implications of this templating decision?

One thing that springs to mind is that a "cancel the effects" of a reaction card couldn't affect it.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Because the instant Leia leaves play, any forced reaction on the card could no longer be enacted. The reaction is now on a card that's out of play and therefore can't take effect.
 
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Jake Di Toro
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PBrennan wrote:
Because the instant Leia leaves play, any forced reaction on the card could no longer be enacted. The reaction is now on a card that's out of play and therefore can't take effect.


Easily solved by making it an Interrupt.

So I started digging around and while it's not as obvious I've found another one.

TIE Attack Squadron

During an engagement in which you have placed at least 1 fate card in your edge stack, this unit gains [Unit Damage] and targeted strike.

This could have been rewriten as:

Reaction: After revealing any fate cards in your edge stack, this unit gains [Unit Damage] and targeted strike until the end of the engagement.

Hell that probably would have solved the need for the FAQ on it. However by making these abilities non Reaction/Interrupt they are much harder to cancel out.
 
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Matt Lernout
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Okay, so if not Forced Reaction, why not Forced Interrupt, then? Because of possible confusion with her other Interrupt?
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Because if the Dark Side play is the active player, he would get to choose which order the interrupts happen and would always choose the capture one first, meaning the other could no longer trigger because the effect was no longer in play. (This isn't like LotR where Forceds must happen first). This way, both must always happen no matter who the active player is.
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Jake Di Toro
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PBrennan wrote:
Because if the Dark Side play is the active player, he would get to choose which order the interrupts happen and would always choose the capture one first, meaning the other could no longer trigger because the effect was no longer in play. (This isn't like LotR where Forceds must happen first). This way, both must always happen no matter who the active player is.


Please show me anywhere where the active player gets to decide what order the other player taks their actions. The only thing the DS player would get to do is perform one of his own interrupts first, followed by the LS player activating an interrupt (Rules pg 24, FAQ pg 4). As a side effect the capturing effect not being an interrupt makes sure the LS player can't accidentally trigger the capture before the focus removal.

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Matt Lernout
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Patrick, can you clarify why the Dark Side player would have the choice of when to execute an Interrupt on a LS card?

As per my understanding of the FAQ under "Nested Effect Sequences", would not the LS player be able to declare the Refresh Interrupt as his first Interrupt, followed by the Forced Capture Interrupt as his second and have them resolve "First In, First Out"?

I realize this is all theoretical, but it's proving to be a meaningful exercise for understanding advanced timing.
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Owen Compton
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Maybe they want to guarantee that if a "Interrupt: prevent one reaction from triggering" card was printed then Leia and TIE Attack Squadron would still have those actions as they aren't reactions so couldn't be prevented by such a card.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Sorry, was in a rush and had a brain-fart trying to think of a valid rules-based reason

As recompense, here's some goss; the card has always been this way from day one (an interrupt and a constant), with just some minor re-phrasing for elegance. More recently, cards that have started as constants, but which have a timing trigger, have generally changed into interrupts/reactions, but it's not a golden rule as the FFG guys like to keep design freedom. So if it had come out later, it may well have changed into a forced interrupt. But it works as is, so no need to change.
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Cameron McKenzie
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If Leia's effect were a Forced Interrupt, couldn't it be cancelled by It's Worse?

The way it is written means it really cannot be prevented. Even if Leia had some hypothetical enhancement that said "Enhanced unit cannot be captured," it wouldn't prevent Leia's effect because that enhancement is gone when Leia leaves play (and she is thus eligible to be captured by her effect). Even an enhancement that says "Units you control cannot be captured," would not help, because as soon as Leia leaves play, you no longer control her.

I'm also not certain that effects such as Bounty Collection could trigger from Leia's effect, since Leia is not getting captured from play... she is leaving play by some other means, and then getting captured from an out of play state.

I may be wrong about all of this, but it certainly seems to matter. If they intended that Leia leaves play and then gets captured, then it makes sense why they chose that wording instead of making it an Interrupt. Even if it is resolved with timing similar to an interrupt, it still matters because it cannot be cancelled.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Also a Forced Interrupt would have to be carefully worded to prevent an infinite loop:

"Leia is leaving play, but first she should get captured as per her forced interrupt. Leia is now being captured, and that is considered leaving play. Since this is a separate instance of Leia leaving play, we have to first trigger her Interrupt again..."
 
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Jason Blakeney
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MasterDinadan wrote:
If Leia's effect were a Forced Interrupt, couldn't it be cancelled by It's Worse?

The way it is written means it really cannot be prevented. Even if Leia had some hypothetical enhancement that said "Enhanced unit cannot be captured," it wouldn't prevent Leia's effect because that enhancement is gone when Leia leaves play (and she is thus eligible to be captured by her effect). Even an enhancement that says "Units you control cannot be captured," would not help, because as soon as Leia leaves play, you no longer control her.

I'm also not certain that effects such as Bounty Collection could trigger from Leia's effect, since Leia is not getting captured from play... she is leaving play by some other means, and then getting captured from an out of play state.

I may be wrong about all of this, but it certainly seems to matter. If they intended that Leia leaves play and then gets captured, then it makes sense why they chose that wording instead of making it an Interrupt. Even if it is resolved with timing similar to an interrupt, it still matters because it cannot be cancelled.


I came on looking for some clarification for Leia's "leaving play" situation when you play Fall Back, initially. I am pretty sure that playing Fall Back will cause Leia to be captured instead of bringing her back into my hand. Could someone verify that for me?

Now, the above post may have invalidated my last game's result. My opponent played Bounty Collection on Leia when she was captured and used the results from that card to further a nice little combo and win. Can The effects of Bounty Collection not be used with Leia?
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Quote:

I came on looking for some clarification for Leia's "leaving play" situation when you play Fall Back, initially. I am pretty sure that playing Fall Back will cause Leia to be captured instead of bringing her back into my hand. Could someone verify that for me?


It absolutely triggers - Leia leaves play when she returns to your hand.

Quote:
Now, the above post may have invalidated my last game's result. My opponent played Bounty Collection on Leia when she was captured and used the results from that card to further a nice little combo and win. Can The effects of Bounty Collection not be used with Leia?


I'm really not 100% confident on this but that is how I understand it. Bounty Collection can be used on Leia, if she is captured from play by some effect. However, I believe her own effect captures her after she leaves play, so it would not apply.
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Patrick Brennan
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Bounty Collection absolutely applies. Leia's forced effect says your opponent (the DS player) captures her; BC says after you (the DS player) capture an enemy unit. One and the same.
 
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Jason Blakeney
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So the only thing that calls this situation into questionis the words on the Bounty Collection card, "from play". I can see how this might somewhat fuzzy in interpretation. I tink we will probably play that Bounty Collection does work, since thematically it makes sense that the DS had something to do with the capture, unless some errata clarifies this.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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The "from play" is meant to differentiate it from effects that say things like capture a card from a player's hand, or from their deck. Leia was in play so BC applies.
 
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Jake Di Toro
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PBrennan wrote:
The "from play" is meant to differentiate it from effects that say things like capture a card from a player's hand, or from their deck. Leia was in play so BC applies.


I think we're competing with intent versus wording again. Leia's text:

If this unit leaves play, it is captured by your opponent at any dark side objective of his choice.

So it doesn't matter that Leia started in play, she has to leave play in order for capture effect to take place.

Bounty Collection:

Reaction: After you capture an enemy unit from play, remove 1 focus token from up to 3 different non-unit cards you control.

So since Leia is out of play when she is captures, this reaction does not trigger.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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Fair enough, as written. Except under this interpretation, if she leaves play, the constant gets turned off the instant she leaves play and therefore can't be captured (as the rules state they "become active as soon as their enabling card comes into play and remain active as long as that card is in play").

Which is why I've always equated that constant as an interrupt ... that she interrupts the leaving of play and gets captured, because the instant she leaves play that constant no longer applies. It's a result of there being a vagueness in the game about what constants are always on (regardless of whether they're in play or not, eg play restrictions, or which otherwise require state memory, like this one) and which constants only apply when in play. This straddles that vagueness ... which is why I came down on the side of intent for this one.
 
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Jason Blakeney
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karrde wrote:
PBrennan wrote:
The "from play" is meant to differentiate it from effects that say things like capture a card from a player's hand, or from their deck. Leia was in play so BC applies.


I think we're competing with intent versus wording again. Leia's text:

If this unit leaves play, it is captured by your opponent at any dark side objective of his choice.

So it doesn't matter that Leia started in play, she has to leave play in order for capture effect to take place.

Bounty Collection:

Reaction: After you capture an enemy unit from play, remove 1 focus token from up to 3 different non-unit cards you control.

So since Leia is out of play when she is captures, this reaction does not trigger.


When reasoned on this, it becomes more clear that the text should dictate that she can't be used with Bounty Collection, however, I can see Patrick's reasoning on it as well.

Ultimately, the best fix for this is a simple rules clarification from the devs. If that doesn't happen, I think am going to go with the above simply to remain true to the language of the card.

Even though a card's ability, or constant, does actually become void upon it leaving play according to the rules on In Play and Out of Play cards, the golden rule states that a card's text overrides the rule book. So if the card says a card's ability triggers when in an out of play state, the golden rule applies.

Either way, thanks for a nice discussion guys.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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PBrennan wrote:
Fair enough, as written. Except under this interpretation, if she leaves play, the constant gets turned off the instant she leaves play and therefore can't be captured (as the rules state they "become active as soon as their enabling card comes into play and remain active as long as that card is in play").


In general, card effects are only applicable when the card is in play. However, if the effect specifically mentions it is triggered from an out of play state, than it can be. Note there are a lot of cards which have Reactions or Actions which trigger out of your hand to put them in play... Leia's effect triggering when she leaves play is valid in the same way.
 
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Patrick Brennan
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The difference with actions, reactions and interrupts is that they're not specifically voided by the rules when out of play, so their text is allowed to override rules text and be playable from an out of play state. But constants are specifically voided.

With Leia leaving play, it requires two things to happen - a memory to linger on the Leia card that it was in play, and for the constant to apply in an out of play state. There's also no timing rules for out-of-play constants that say when I have to trigger it!?

Which is why I find it easier to treat it as an interrupt, making it all happen as it leaves play, because then I don't have to construct 3 separate new rules to make it work. I've had this discussion re ambiguity with out-of-play constants with the FFG guys before and it always comes back to "the intent is clear" and don't stress about it. So if it's all about the intent being clear, then Leia was in play, captured, BC works, right!? lol.

Having said that, this is all just semantics for those who enjoy a good semantics discussion, and I'm fine if people want to play the other way, and wouldn't be surprised if FAQ eventually came down on reading the card literally, especially given so many FAQ rulings came out recently that were changes on how we were told to play it during playtesting, so I'm getting out of the business on saying which way it *should* go


 
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Jason Blakeney
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Well now I am confused again.
 
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