Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Airlines Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: 3rd scoring card ends the game immediately?! rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Martin Malo
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
Keep an open mind; let yourself be amazed but not fooled.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi everyone,
The last game I played was 4-player game where I was last to play.
At the end, the game left me a little frustrated bc the last scoring card was picked up by the 3rd player. Consequently, not only did I have the weakest share choice but I was the only one who got to play 1 turn less than everyone else! No need to tell you I finished last and lost by a landslide.

I was thinking of house-ruling that the 3rd scoring card meant "game ends after the last player's turn" thus lessening the luck-factor of your last and crucial action.

I'd like to read your opinions on this (situation and house-rule).

Thanks!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
P. oeppel
Germany
Berlin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ardestat wrote:
Hi everyone,
The last game I played was 4-player game where I was last to play.
At the end, the game left me a little frustrated bc the last scoring card was picked up by the 3rd player. Consequently, not only did I have the weakest share choice


First of all, I am not sure I understand this correctly. Do you mean the shares you already played in front of you? Or are you talking about choosing shares from the market after a scoring card is revealed?

In case of the latter: It is not really relevant as the game ends immediately after the scoring, so no reason to pick more shares. During the game however, you would be the first to pick a share (leaving you with best choice) if the player to your right revealed the scoring card.

In case of the former, I am not sure how this is related to who reveals the scoring card.

Quote:

but I was the only one who got to play 1 turn less than everyone else! No need to tell you I finished last and lost by a landslide.


So, if you "lost by a landslide", how does one turn change everything? You can

a) play two different shares, probably affecting the majority for both airlines. However, the point difference would not lead to a "landslide" loss.
b) play many shares of one airline (probably even Air Abacus?) to initiate a surprise takeover (well, in case of AA probably not so surprising due to different card color). In this case, you obviously waited too long to collect to many shares instead of bringing them to the table.

All in all, I don't really see how one turn can make a big difference, taking into account that you get... how many turns during the whole game?

Let's see:

There are 112 (normal) shares in total.
In a four player game, Air Amigos (16 cards) is removed, leaving 96.
The third scoring card is shuffled into the last 10 cards of the deck, leaving at least 86 share cards above it.
Each of the first two scorings clears the stock market, that's another 10 cards (2*5), leavint 76.

Ah, I nearly forgot the starting hand of 8 cards each. So, there remain 52 cards to be taken by action A (Buy license(s) and pick one share). That is already 14 turns per player, if all everybody ever does is Action A.

Too long ago that I played, unfortunately, so I can't properly estimate how often you would:
B) play shares
C) exchange shares for Air Abacus
D) simply get money

But all in all, I would say, you get at least 25 actions in total and I don't believe/think that one action more or less is significant in the grand scheme. So, no house rule needed, in my eyes....
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree..none needed. The way the scoring cards are handled and the way the game ends add needed tension to the game, otherwise it is the last player who will have the advantage. There are some ways to accelerate some of your actions, at a price of course (namely buying 2 licenses, or trading 3 cards for 2 air abacus shares) but in general the game is very balanced and fine as is..remember that this is the 3rd itineration (the first 2 being Airlines then Union Pacific) so I believe the ruleset has been refined enough already.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Dawkins
United States
Fountain
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In addition to what the gentlemen above said, keep in mind that the game has already somewhat balanced this... for going last in turn order, you receive more victory points than anyone else at the beginning of the game. I really don't think this is an issue, it certainly hasn't been an issue the times that I've played it.

If you truly lost by a landslide, it had nothing to do with receiving one less turn than everyone else. If the difference was just a few points, I could see your argument... but that issue's already been resolved in the rules, as that's why you received more points at the beginning of the game to start with.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Malo
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
Keep an open mind; let yourself be amazed but not fooled.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you all for your advice.

It seems I should not have mentioned the result of the game since the real issue issue was that I played one turn less than everybody else. In principle, it's unfair for anyone who didn't get to play their last turn (unless they win anyway, obviously, but I'd bet it doesn't happen too often).

I understand the balance that is introduced by the extra points given to players #2-#5 and I must confess I'd forgotten it. But this rule only mitigates the weaker share choices that they have at the start. It has nothing to do with who gets to pick up the end-game card.

pinoeppel wrote:
There are 112 (normal) shares in total.
In a four player game, Air Amigos (16 cards) is removed, leaving 96.
The third scoring card is shuffled into the last 10 cards of the deck, leaving at least 86 share cards above it.
Each of the first two scorings clears the stock market, that's another 10 cards (2*5), leavint 76.

Ah, I nearly forgot the starting hand of 8 cards each. So, there remain 52 cards to be taken by action A

For the record, in a 4-player game there would remain 44 cards (76-32) but, as I said, that is not the point.


pinoeppel wrote:
[...] how does one turn change everything? You can

a) play two different shares, probably affecting the majority for both airlines. However, the point difference would not lead to a "landslide" loss.
b) play many shares of one airline (probably even Air Abacus?) to initiate a surprise takeover (well, in case of AA probably not so surprising due to different card color). In this case, you obviously waited too long to collect to many shares instead of bringing them to the table.

All in all, I don't really see how one turn can make a big difference, taking into account that you get... how many turns during the whole game?

Two others players had invested heavily into white and I had secretly kept 3 of those shares. This would've made me go from «not-owner» (0 pt) to «king of the whites» (9 pts). Consequently the two other players would've lost 4 pts and 2 pts by this sudden turn of events. I'd think a difference of 11-13 pts in this game is quite a lot.

Most points are earned during the last few turns (when you see the stack approaching the 10-cards threshold) so your last actions are quite important.

That being said, what interests me most is the principle of fairness. I'd hate to think that people could win/lose this game just because they didn't have as many moves as the others.

Your comments are appreciated.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Smith
United Kingdom
Pimlico
London
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well that's kind of how the game works - you took a risky strategy holding on to those cards (for too long as it turned out) which lost you the game. I don't see any reason to fix this as its not broken ?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Shane
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
Train gamer, Euro gamer and War gamer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Flamehearted wrote:
Well that's kind of how the game works - you took a risky strategy holding on to those cards (for too long as it turned out) which lost you the game. I don't see any reason to fix this as its not broken ?
I agree. And is that decision point of holding onto the cards for one more turn, or playing them while you can, not what makes this a good game?
Also, there are many games that do not have equal number of turns.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Malo
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
Keep an open mind; let yourself be amazed but not fooled.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, it sure seems like I'm the only one having an issue with the unfairness of having one move less than other players. I'm a eurogamer (mostly) and I'm really not used to that kind of mechanic.

SD40 wrote:
there are many games that do not have equal number of turns.


I don't know any good eurogame (say top-200 on BGG) that don't have equal number of turns. My curiosity pushes me to ask...

Edit: excluding games where players can (re)act during another player's turn. Why? Bc you still can impact the outcome of the/your game even if it isn't your turn, which is not the case here.

Thank you all for your input.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ardestat wrote:
Well, it sure seems like I'm the only one having an issue with the unfairness of having one move less than other players. I'm a eurogamer (mostly) and I'm really not used to that kind of mechanic.

SD40 wrote:
there are many games that do not have equal number of turns.


I don't know any good eurogame (say top-200 on BGG) that don't have equal number of turns. My curiosity pushes me to ask...

Thank you all for your input.



Some examples are Trajan, and it's currently at number 40....another one is Hansa Teutonica. Stone Age can also end abruptly if someone buys the last hut in a stack. Glen More also ends the moment the last tile in Age 3 is taken.

You can also look at the Ticket to Ride family.

In these the game ends when certain conditions are met. In TTR one more round occurs after, but since this does not necessarily start with the start player but rather the one with 2 trains remaining in many cases theren is not an equal number of turns taken per player.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Malo
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
Keep an open mind; let yourself be amazed but not fooled.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Unfortunately, the only one I know amongst the ones mentioned above is Stone Age. Nobody skips any turn in the game and you can see the end coming which makes it quite different.

One could even say the revered Puerto Rico ends in ways similar to Stone Age but players can see the end-conditions and calculate the best last moves(s) accordingly. Not to mention that everyone always plays an equal amount of turns.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Robert Yu
Philippines
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ardestat wrote:
Unfortunately, the only one I know amongst the ones mentioned above is Stone Age. Nobody skips any turn in the game and you can see the end coming which makes it quite different.

One could even say the revered Puerto Rico ends in ways similar to Stone Age but players can see the end-conditions and calculate the best last moves(s) accordingly. Not to mention that everyone always plays an equal amount of turns.


Oops double checked you do play out everyone's turns in Stone Age, scratch that.

I am surprised you have never tried Ticket to Ride!!!

In Trajan (by Stefan Feld, same designer as The Castles of Burgundy), you advance the turn marker depending on the number of action pieces you used for your action on the rondel. The game immediately ends after the turn a player advances the turn marker beyond the 4th season in the last year, where final scoring then occurs. Thus oftentimes all players do not have equal chances to act.

In Hansa Teutonica the game ends IMMEDIATELY (ie even if the current player who ended the turn has not finished all his actions!) once someone reaches 20VP, or when the special action discs run out, or when 10 cities are completely occupied with offices. Bonus scoring (which is where the bulk of the points are scored) then occurs.

Other great top 100 games where the game ends immediately on a player's turn when a certain condition is met are Alien Frontiers (dice placement/area control) and Dominion (deckbuilder).

Check them out, and rest assured that these are great euro designs in the top 100 (just like Airlines Europe, although AE is not in the top 100, but the top 200 in the BGG rankings) which work even if all the players do not get an equal amount of turns.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Malo
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
Keep an open mind; let yourself be amazed but not fooled.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have tried Ticket to Ride once but forgot about it since I thought it was too luck-driven.
Anyway, I didn't want to bring another game made by the same designer into this (brief) debate. I just didn't think it could count as an example.

But still, I'm catching your drift. I've played it only twice but my third one will surely be better, thanks to you all.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David B
United States
Chesapeake
Virginia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Once again...perhaps you didnt get your last turn. BUT you started with more victory points. The designer KNEW the last player would most likely get one less turn and that is exactly why the last player started with more victory points. IF any remaining players after the scoring card are allowed to take one last turn, NOW you have the issue of not being fair to the players who played their last turn BEFORE the scoring card is revealed; what you do on the last turn is certainly going to be influenced if you know the scoring card is turned up. If I know WITH CERTAINTY that this is my last turn, all I am going to do is put stocks into play.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Burgess
Canada
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
ardestat wrote:

I understand the balance that is introduced by the extra points given to players #2-#5 and I must confess I'd forgotten it. But this rule only mitigates the weaker share choices that they have at the start.


Could you explain this more? The shares that are available are random and you have the same option of drawing off the deck as others. In the first round of the game, it's hard to determine which shares are 'good'. I.e. if you consider white shares better than the others and there's a white in the initial draw, yes, you'll probably not get it. It's about the same likelyhood that while the players before you take you turns they'll put up a card that you do want and can take it. It's the nature of the game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.