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Subject: The White God rss

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Brian Hunt
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I think I know the answer to this, but I thought I would seek clarification...

The White God allows you to place a die as if it were a Six. Does this mean that if you roll a '1' and then play the White God you CANNOT place it any space that has a 1 to 6 die already in place (ie exactly as if you had rolled a 6)?

We were not sure if the card allowed you to place the die as it's face value allows and THEN apply the white god rule (i.e useful for getting into the Helper Action and then getting lots of trades).

We played assuming the reasoning that to all intents and purposes the die is a '6'.
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Klaus Knechtskern
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Nope, the die is only for the purpose of the "strenght" of the action a six. For the rules of placement your die still has the face value. You do not turn the die to 6, you place it with the rolled side up but can use the action like when you had placed a six.

The German rules are more clear on this point as there is stated in brackets "place to the others rules" in regard to the die.
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Alvaro BF
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You place the die as it if were the actual value (ie, if the lowest die already is a 2, you can only use a 1). After that, you can use the White God to use the "6 effect"

That DOESN'T change the value of the die (it's specifically said in the rules) it just gives you the effect.

Ie, you can place a 1 in an empty action with a White God, effectively blocking it while also granting you a "6" action.
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Brian Hunt
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Ok, that makes it slightly more useful then! Thanks for your responses!
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I think it's the opposite: the white god would turn your die into a virtual 6, so you could only play it on an empty action tile (and use that action as if your die were a '6'). Hiwever, you don't actually change the die face; therefore, other players trying to take that action again will have to deal with your low-value die.

Rulebook wrote:
Example: Anna plays a Blue God (and makes an offering) to be able to place a 3-die on the “water path” action tile, which already shows a die with a 1. Additi- onally she plays a White God (and makes another offering) to be able to use the 3 as a 6, i.e. allowing her to expand over a water path with a value of 6, and places a new hut in the new region. Finally she plays a Red God (and makes a third offering) to score 5 victory points for the fish tile adjacent to the new hut.
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Chris Taylor
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I can see that it is not clear in the manual the way it is written, but I think that the intention was lost in translation. I can't read German but I'm happy to take Klaus's reading of it, a few posts up, where he says that you follow normal placement rules for the dice and then resolve the action as if you had placed a 6.

KlausKnechtskern wrote:
The German rules are more clear on this point as there is stated in brackets "place to the others rules" in regard to the die.
 
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We'll havee to agree to disagree -- the quote I posted seems pretty clear to me!
 
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Dan Blum
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snoozefest wrote:
We'll havee to agree to disagree -- the quote I posted seems pretty clear to me!


I agree that it's clear, but unfortunately it's a poorly-chosen example - the 3 couldn't be placed on the tile whether the white god was used or not, so it tells us nothing about the answer to this question.

The German rule for the white god says:

Quote:
Wer einen weißen Gott ausspielt (nur in Phase A möglich), erhöht den Wert seines (den sonstigen Regeln entsprechend platzierten) Würfels damit auf 6. Dazu wird der Würfel aber nicht auf die Augenzahl 6 gedreht, sondern er bleibt, wie er ist!


My interpretation of this is that you play the white god to change an already-placed die to a virtual 6 - otherwise the section in parentheses doesn't make much sense. If it worked the other way it would have to explicitly state that you follow the placement rules for the die after changing it, which it does not.
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Mik Svellov
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The WHITE card allow you to play a die - by the normal rules - and pretend that is a "6" when you resolved the action, no matter its factual facing.

The BLUE card allow you disregard any rules for placement, as if placing the die on the Fisherman's corner.

The two cards may be placed upon the same die, so that you may place that is higher than allowed AND pretend it is a "6" when performing the action.
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Bryan Thunkd
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When you you play the white God card you still place the die at its actual value but it takes effect as though it was a six.
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OK, the German-speakers have convinced me -- just a poor translation to English, it seems. So ...

Unlike the blue god, the white god card may only be played after your die has been placed on an action tile.
 
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Bryan Thunkd
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snoozefest wrote:
OK, the German-speakers have convinced me -- just a poor translation to English, it seems. So ...

Unlike the blue god, the white god card may only be played after your die has been placed on an action tile.


I don't think that is what the rules actually say...

Google translates the german rules as "If you play a white God (only in phase A) increases, the value his (the other rules appropriately placed) cube so on 6th To the cube is not rotated on the spot number 6, but he remains as it is!"

That's a little garbled in English but here are the important parts... the die is not rotated only the value is changed. So the die placement rules are in effect based on the die itself. There is nothing about having to play the card after you place the die, but as that is functionally the same, if that's how you want to think about it, good on ya.


And from the english rules:
rulebook on white god wrote:
Do not change the die’s value to 6, it remains as it was!


rulebook on die placement wrote:
Important! When placing a die on an action tile, you can only place a die showing a value that is lower than the lowest value currently on that action tile (regardless of color).


The placement rule is based on what value the die shows. The white god rules say that the die specifically should not be changed to six. This appears to be that they are specifically making the point that the white god doesn't change the die itself so that the placement rules allow it to be placed as less than a six.

The phrase in the English rulebook "then you can add a die to an action tile as if its value was 6" appears to be a mistranslation, which is trying to get across the point that the die has the effect of a six, but is worded such that it can be read as a placement restriction.
 
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Mik Svellov
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snoozefest wrote:
OK, the German-speakers have convinced me -- just a poor translation to English, it seems. So ...

Unlike the blue god, the white god card may only be played after your die has been placed on an action tile.

What does it matter? Whether the die have been placed or is about to be placed, it will keep the facing that was rolled.

Only when the action is performed will it function as if it was a "6".
 
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Great Dane wrote:
snoozefest wrote:
OK, the German-speakers have convinced me -- just a poor translation to English, it seems. So ...

Unlike the blue god, the white god card may only be played after your die has been placed on an action tile.

What does it matter? Whether the die have been placed or is about to be placed, it will keep the facing that was rolled.

Only when the action is performed will it function as if it was a "6".

It matters because if the card were placed first, you would be treating the die as if it were a 6 even though you didn't actually rotate the die to a 6. Therefore, following the basic rules of the game, you would only be able to place the die on an empty action tile. Remember that the text of the English rules does not say "function as if it was a '6'." It says "you can add a die to an action tile as if its value was 6." If you're treating it as if the value is 6, your play options are limited.
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Bryan Thunkd
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The die placement restriction is based on the value shown on the die. The white god doesn't change the value shown on the die. The white god makes the action taken have an effect of a six.
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I'm not sure why you guys keep going on about this -- I've already agreed that the German rules appear to be more specific -- but since you do, I feel the need to respond.

I understand the rules about die placement. The rules say you must play a die lower than the lowest value already present on an action tile. But the blue god breaks that rule, allowing you to place a die of equal or higher value. This is an example of how god cards can modify previously stated rules. Similarly, based on the wording of the English rules, the white god could be allowing you to break the placement rule -- placing your die onto a tile as if it were a 6 (and also, therefore, using the action as if you had placed a 6). You (Bryan) already said as much yourself:
Thunkd wrote:
is worded such that it can be read as a placement restriction
 
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Sebastian
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Because not everybody seems to be convinced I can agree that the german rules are very clear and don't leave any room for interpretation:

White god doesn't turn any dice, the dice is placed as it is and you can use it as a six (when you can place it by any rule). You can combine a white god with a blue god (allowing dices of a higher worth) and you can place every dice on every action and use it as a six - it doesn't matter which and how many dices were placed before.
 
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sneuhauss wrote:
Because not everybody seems to be convinced I can agree that the german rules are very clear and don't leave any room for interpretation

Actually, I think everyone is convinced of the rule. It seems that now the argument is about whether or not the English version can be interpreted any other way ... purely semantics.
 
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Neil Blaiberg
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snoozefest wrote:
sneuhauss wrote:
Because not everybody seems to be convinced I can agree that the german rules are very clear and don't leave any room for interpretation

Actually, I think everyone is convinced of the rule. It seems that now the argument is about whether or not the English version can be interpreted any other way ... purely semantics.


Not really particularly if you consider the Bold text on the right:

"Die placed on action tile is considered to be of value 6, but not changed to value 6"

Firstly it implies the die is placed first. Secondly, it keeps emphasising "not changed".

You could try and argue it differently, but it would be a hell of a stretch, not to mention not massively helpful from a god card
 
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TheRiddler1976 wrote:
snoozefest wrote:
sneuhauss wrote:
Because not everybody seems to be convinced I can agree that the german rules are very clear and don't leave any room for interpretation

Actually, I think everyone is convinced of the rule. It seems that now the argument is about whether or not the English version can be interpreted any other way ... purely semantics.


Not really particularly if you consider the Bold text on the right:

"Die placed on action tile is considered to be of value 6, but not changed to value 6"

Firstly it implies the die is placed first. Secondly, it keeps emphasising "not changed".

You could try and argue it differently, but it would be a hell of a stretch, not to mention not massively helpful from a god card

If I were to hypnotize you, hand you an apple, and tell you to "consider this an orange", and if you were someone who love Love LOVED oranges, you would derive great pleasure from biting into the apple. But it is still an apple. Similarly, I could consider a die to be a 6, and place it somewhere and use the ability as if it were a 6, even though I don't actually change the die face to a 6.

Anyway, enough is enough. These semantic arguments that go on forever, without any real point, are tremendously boring. Y'all can carry on without me!
 
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Jonathan Degann
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Here is the official ruling which appears on the Alea site:

1. Are you supposed to play your die according to the normal rules, then play the white god to take the action as if you played a 6?
Yes, that´s how it works!

2. Do you play the white god first, making your die a "virtual" 6, then play the die on an action?
No, that´s wrong! (In this case there would be no reason at all not to change the die up to a 6!)

http://www.aleaspiele.de/Pages/Forum/
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Bryan Thunkd
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Jonathan Degann wrote:
Here is the official ruling which appears on the Alea site:

1. Are you supposed to play your die according to the normal rules, then play the white god to take the action as if you played a 6?
Yes, that´s how it works!

2. Do you play the white god first, making your die a "virtual" 6, then play the die on an action?
No, that´s wrong! (In this case there would be no reason at all not to change the die up to a 6!)

http://www.aleaspiele.de/Pages/Forum/


Granted that appears on the Alea site but it's more confusing than helpful to me in that I don't understand the comment "In this case there would be no reason at all not to change the die up to a 6". The answer to the first question indicates that you place your die first and then use the white god... in which case I don't see a reason not to use it as a six. The fact that they specifically make that statement in the second question implies that there is.
 
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Dan Blum
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Thunkd wrote:
Jonathan Degann wrote:
Here is the official ruling which appears on the Alea site:

1. Are you supposed to play your die according to the normal rules, then play the white god to take the action as if you played a 6?
Yes, that´s how it works!

2. Do you play the white god first, making your die a "virtual" 6, then play the die on an action?
No, that´s wrong! (In this case there would be no reason at all not to change the die up to a 6!)

http://www.aleaspiele.de/Pages/Forum/


Granted that appears on the Alea site but it's more confusing than helpful to me in that I don't understand the comment "In this case there would be no reason at all not to change the die up to a 6". The answer to the first question indicates that you place your die first and then use the white god... in which case I don't see a reason not to use it as a six. The fact that they specifically make that statement in the second question implies that there is.


That statement was probably just worded slightly wrong. It seems quite definitive that you place the die, then use the white god.

(Checks horse. "I'm not getting a pulse.")
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Interesting that it is that way. The rule as written is definitely the other way in english (although the section in the right hints at working the other way). But when a translated version is different than the original, that's pretty irrelevant.

What I find interesting is that we have actually played it both ways, and found it clearly more interesting and balanced the other way (place as a 6 without changing the value). That way is clearly worse in every way and we still found the white card to be an above average card, and there was often a real motivation to still play blue god cards in tandem with it. Not sure which way we'll play it going forward, this is disappointing news. shake
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Bryan Thunkd
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mopeymatt wrote:
That way is clearly worse in every way and we still found the white card to be an above average card


If it can't be placed at the value originally rolled then this card loses 90% of its utility for me. The number of times I've needed a six die that I could actually be placed as a six is far far less often than the number of times I've been able to sneak in a one die and wanted to have it count as a six.
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