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Subject: Fairplay Question rss

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Alex

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Okay, so we play that huge, 8-hours long Twilight Imperium game, and (not for the first time) two players use this killer "strategy":

-Unbreakable alliance from the start; they are ultimately ready to lose, if the other player can win...

Furthermore, these two players are extremely competitive and victory is very important to them, more than "fun for everyone".

This "brother strategy" seems almost broken for most confrontational games, where all other players play alone. It gives each of them something like 1/2 or 1/3 chance of winning, in a six player game. We got into some heated arguments, some of us saying that this way of playing is not fairplay, while others kept saying that it's a good strategy and we just have to adapt...

So... what do you think?
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Alliances are fine if you play rationally (trying to win yourself) and are willing to betray your ally.

I'm guessing, though, that these two players actually try to help each other win. That's not OK, because the only reason it works is that they play together in multiple games over time. Essentially, one of them throws the game to the other in one game so they can do the reverse in the next game. That's some sort of collusion, in my book. I would not play with people who did that.
 
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If there's nothing against it in the rules, then yes it's fairplay. Lame, but fair.

This strategy would really stink in a three-player game when you're the odd man out.

In a four or higher player game, there is a way around this 'strategy'. Make it the mission of everyone else to gang up and eliminate these two players first off. Consider this the first stage of the game. Maybe if you do this to them enough times these brothers will get the hint. If they don't get the hint, then maybe you'll luck out and they'll never come back. Either way... problem solved.

I've had this 'strategy' played against me and seen it played against other people. I know your frustration. Sorry.

You can't discount the power of table talk. We once had a player that would tell us constantly throughout the game how he was going to lose and that he didn't have a chance. No one would attack him or target him for negative effects. This whiner would always end up winning. So from thereon out, I made it my mission to counter his whines. He would say, "I'm going to lose". And I would reply to everyone else, "Don't listen to him, he does this every game. It's his strategy. He's just lulling you into a false sense of security. Etc." Boy, did he hate that! I had called his bluff, big time.

Some people just love to metagame. You've just got to metagame them right back.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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What they're doing wrong is playing not for the in-game victory conditions, but for an external reward offered the player they are throwing the game to.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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The rest of you guys at the table just need to pull the same thing on them. Have everyone else agree that objective #1 is wiping those two bozos off the map.

Or, for a less mean-spirited approach in which everyone can get what they want, why not explicitly break up into teams? Three teams of two could be just as much fun, and it's still fair for everyone.
 
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Mike Keane
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Having never played Twilight Imperium, I'll just comment on the basic "team play" question. I have seen this strategy several times. Couples (husband/wife), siblings, close friends; all tend to work together to some extent.

I think it's a perfectly acceptable "strategy" most of the time. However, in a four player game, I would expect all players to have the same amount of experience. It would be extremely difficult for a new player to a game to compete against a team.

In order to combat this type of strategy it's imperative that the other players recognize what is going on. Once everyone is on the same page it becomes a game of 2-vs-2 (or 2-vs-4) and things balance out nicely. If there is player elimination, killing off one of the team members usually allows you to switch back to playing "every man for himself."

Then too, if it was 2-vs-4, you could just knock out the two players who started the original alliance and play the rest of the game without them. That might change their mind about their strategy and fair play.
 
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Jesper A
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It must be boring to try to loose on purpose for 8 hours. If i had players like that in my group, i would ask them to stay away in the future.

When i play games i do it for fun, and so do the other players in my group. We try to win of course, but but we mainly play to have a good time. If someone came along with an overly competitive attitude, it would spoil the fun for the rest of us. Life is too short to suffer through 8 hours of frustration.

If the problem only arises with TI3 then play something else with them, and play TI3 when they aren't around. If not it sounds like the other 4 of you are sensible people able to enjoy gaming without the 2 who are not into the olympic spirit
 
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Hunga Dunga
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A lot of good comments here.

I personally don't see the point in playing games with people I don't enjoy playing games with. There are many ways to approach boardgaming, and these two people you are referring to like playing with "suckers". Rather than "teaching them a lesson", I would find two other gamers to replace them the next time you get together.
 
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Alex

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Quote:
You can't discount the power of table talk. We once had a player that would tell us constantly throughout the game how he was going to lose and that he didn't have a chance. No one would attack him or target him for negative effects. This whiner would always end up winning.


laughlaughlaugh One of the brothers is exactly like that!

Quote:
I personally don't see the point in playing games with people I don't enjoy playing games with. There are many ways to approach boardgaming, and these two people you are referring to like playing with "suckers". Rather than "teaching them a lesson", I would find two other gamers to replace them the next time you get together.


Well, the problem is that these people are "real-life" friends I care deeply about and known for most of my life, not just boardgame friends. I guess I will give up TI3 with them, however, just like I gave up Samurai Swords a few years ago...
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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What's wrong with explicit teams?
 
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Jon David Faeth
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You just need to play against brothers who have a stronger sense of sibling rivalry. I have two brothers whom I game with, and we don't usually team up, even in team games. We'll find someone else to team up with, as long as we get to beat on each other.

Fun times.
 
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Jorge Montero
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jellospike wrote:
Quote:
You can't discount the power of table talk. We once had a player that would tell us constantly throughout the game how he was going to lose and that he didn't have a chance. No one would attack him or target him for negative effects. This whiner would always end up winning.


laughlaughlaugh One of the brothers is exactly like that!

Quote:
I personally don't see the point in playing games with people I don't enjoy playing games with. There are many ways to approach boardgaming, and these two people you are referring to like playing with "suckers". Rather than "teaching them a lesson", I would find two other gamers to replace them the next time you get together.


Well, the problem is that these people are "real-life" friends I care deeply about and known for most of my life, not just boardgame friends. I guess I will give up TI3 with them, however, just like I gave up Samurai Swords a few years ago...


If not playing with them is not a good option, I'd try to show them why behaving like that is not in their best interest: Talk to the other players about it, and in the next game smack them silly until nothing there's nothing they can do to help each other. Another option involves teaming up to let another player win, something that's pretty easy in TI3.

That kind of people tends to learn really quickly once they see you do to them what they do to you.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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joebelanger wrote:
If there's nothing against it in the rules, then yes it's fairplay. Lame, but fair.


So if there is nothing in the rules saying an opponent can't smack you in the face, you have no problem if you get slugged in the mouth?

 
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Fraser
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jellospike wrote:
So... what do you think?
The rest of you gang up on them until they are either not threat to the rest of you and the game or if you prefer until they are totally crushed.
 
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Psauberer wrote:
joebelanger wrote:
If there's nothing against it in the rules, then yes it's fairplay. Lame, but fair.


So if there is nothing in the rules saying an opponent can't smack you in the face, you have no problem if you get slugged in the mouth?



Actually, it's in "The Rules" that a player can't slug another player in the mouth. Usually, the laws of the land supercede gaming rules in nearly all circumstances.

Now, if, while playing a game, I deserve a slug in the mouth, for being an ass, I'll take my lumps.

Kind of like your snarky reply deserves a slap upside the head... C'mere!
 
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Oh my God They Banned Kenny
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Since this pair are friends of yours, rather than people you've never met before who you are playing against in a 'tournament' or something, I would suggest talking to them, and others in your group, openly about it. If you're playing for simple enjoyment, and for the sake of doing 'something' together as friends, then whatever arrangement you make that is 'enjoyable' is OK. If it's not fun, then don't play them in multi player games, or get them to change their behaviour, or adapt to it. The adaptation seems pretty obvious to me, as others have suggested, everyone else should 'consistently' gang up on the 'brothers' until at least one of them is out of the game. Or play games with a 'natural' team structure where their 'auto alliance' doesn't matter - e.g. coop games, or something like Friedrich.
 
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Hunga Dunga
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You'll probably delete this post, but at least I'll know you've read it.

I think your a fucking sap for letting these two assholes dictate which games you can play.

You may consider them "friends", but they're laughing at you behind your back.

They're assholes, plain and simple.

YOU are letting down your OTHER friends who like to game by allowing these turds to join in. Which in a very real sense makes you an asshole, too.

So. Stick up for those friends of yours who are gentlemen, and cast off those hangers-on who clearly just want to take advantage. Your cred will rise dramatically.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Weird--you say you'd sooner give up the game than your friends, and someone calls you an asshole. That's the kind of thing that could really hurt a guy's feelings, if it weren't coming from some random idiot on the Internet.

If you have an even number of players, what's wrong with suggesting that you split up into teams of two before starting the game, and go for some kind of team win? (First team to 18, or first team with both players above 8, etc. If the brothers want to be on the same team, I'd let them; otherwise, they can roll like everyone else.) That way, you all still get to play TI3; the brothers still have a buddy who can be counted on to help them win; and everyone still has a fair shot at winning. (Improved odds of winning, even.) It could be a lot of fun!
 
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Alex

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Well, we might eventually play differently. As for this topic, I was more interested in discussing the "brother strategy" than receiving advice, but it is still appreciated (well, except for the insults... )

And no, I will not give up on these people. There are many things more important in life than boardgames, such as family or friendship. Sorry if the random angry guy can't understand that. shake As I said, those people are not "boardgame" buddies, and there are many other fun activities I could do with them apart from boardgames.

As for playing TI3 (or other big games) in teams, it could be very fun. But it's not cool in my book when it's decided secretly beforehand by only 2 people.
 
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Tristan Brightman
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Friendship is more important than games.

None of my friends would continue with this behaviour after it had been pointed out to them that their way of playing wasn't fun for the group, and wasn't considered fair.

If someone can't get that, I'd find it difficult to respect them enough to really truthfully call them my friend.
 
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Michael Von Ahnen
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There is no solution to this problem or similar problems with truely multiplayer games. There have been many Forum entries on this issue. The problems comes about when the other players are not playing the same "game", i.e. their definition of the victory conditions do not match the others in the game.

For long games, this is exceedingly frustrating. The only multiplayer games that I have not seen this type of issue in is when their are two teams, where everybody has the same goal, or at least parallel goals.
 
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jellospike wrote:
As for playing TI3 (or other big games) in teams, it could be very fun. But it's not cool in my book when it's decided secretly beforehand by only 2 people.


Here's your solution...

I've been dying to play TI3. Move to Austin and we'll play TI3 'til we're completely sick of it. There. That's it.

I love playing Pirate's Cove, but my wife hates Pirate's Cove. When people ask me if Pirate's Cove is a great game, I reply that it is if played with the right people.

The right people.

I cannot stand playing Pirate's Cove with my wife. She's miserable while playing Pirate's Cove and makes sure that everyone else is too. So I don't play that game with her. I play games with her that she enjoys. Bummer that that is, that's the way it is...

Likewise, you should play games with these guys that YOU enjoy playing with THEM.

Something not so easy to be ganged up on. Say... CandyLand
 
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Alex

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I've been dying to play TI3. Move to Austin and we'll play TI3 'til we're completely sick of it. There. That's it.

Hey, why don't you move to Montreal, I'll play TI3 and Pirate's Cove with you!

Quote:
I cannot stand playing Pirate's Cove with my wife. She's miserable while playing Pirate's Cove and makes sure that everyone else is too. So I don't play that game with her. I play games with her that she enjoys. Bummer that that is, that's the way it is...

According to most people on this forum, your only option is divorce, then...

Quote:
Something not so easy to be ganged up on. Say... CandyLand

 
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Leif Norcott
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Actually, it's in "The Rules" that a player can't slug another player in the mouth. Usually, the laws of the land supercede gaming rules in nearly all circumstances.

Now, if, while playing a game, I deserve a slug in the mouth, for being an ass, I'll take my lumps.

Kind of like your snarky reply deserves a slap upside the head... C'mere!


Most games don't have it explicitly written into the rules that you can't cheat at the game, but that doesn't make it fair when it happens. That also avoids your "law of the land" ideal, amazing!
 
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nibuen wrote:
Quote:
Actually, it's in "The Rules" that a player can't slug another player in the mouth. Usually, the laws of the land supercede gaming rules in nearly all circumstances.

Now, if, while playing a game, I deserve a slug in the mouth, for being an ass, I'll take my lumps.

Kind of like your snarky reply deserves a slap upside the head... C'mere!


Most games don't have it explicitly written into the rules that you can't cheat at the game, but that doesn't make it fair when it happens. That also avoids your "law of the land" ideal, amazing!


I've read this a couple of times. I'm guessing that there is a legitimate point in there somewhere. Maybe you could help us all out...

I started to write a serious rebuttal of your statements, until I realized that you either had to be joking and had a really bizarre sense of humor -or- you're retarded, somebody let you out of their sight, let you pound on the keyboard with the 'safety gloves' they make you wear and is now probably leading you back to the 'lounge'.
 
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