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Subject: Question about "Lone Gunman" / Defcon 1 interaction rss

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Jean-Luc Simard
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A couple of questions:

"Lone Gunman"/CIA Created specify to "Conduct Operations with this card normally". If played by the opponent as an ops card because he can't use the event and I get to look at his hand, do I also get a 1 point Ops to use for coup/realignment/influence placing?

If so, and the DEFCON level was at 2, and my op point is used for a coup in a battleground country, DEFCON would be degraded to 1 and Global Thermonuclear War would occur. The original player of the card would be the losing player, even though the opponent did the coup?

An additional scenario: Defcon level at 2, Nuclear Subs has been played previously in the turn. US players uses "Lone Gunman" as an ops card, USSR acts on the event to make a coup in a battleground country. Would the DEFCON level be degraded to 1 or not? This happened in our game tonight...
 
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Allen Doum
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Jaels wrote:
A couple of questions:

"Lone Gunman"/CIA Created specify to "Conduct Operations with this card normally". If played by the opponent as an ops card because he can't use the event and I get to look at his hand, do I also get a 1 point Ops to use for coup/realignment/influence placing?


Yes. Ops in the text of the event are played.

Quote:
If so, and the DEFCON level was at 2, and my op point is used for a coup in a battleground country, DEFCON would be degraded to 1 and Global Thermonuclear War would occur. The original player of the card would be the losing player, even though the opponent did the coup?


The player who played the card is "at fault", and loses. That player would be advised to bury or hold the card somehow, or improve DEFCON before playing it.

Quote:
An additional scenario: Defcon level at 2, Nuclear Subs has been played previously in the turn. US players uses "Lone Gunman" as an ops card, USSR acts on the event to make a coup in a battleground country. Would the DEFCON level be degraded to 1 or not? This happened in our game tonight...


Good question. Will wait for Ananda or Jason to handle this one. Strict reading would say that DEFCON would go to 1 as it is a USSR event, but is playing the card a "US action" as defined by Nuclear Subs?
 
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Patrick Kairns
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I'm having a difficult time understanding this one as well. If the USSR player CHOOSES a Coup in a battleground country knowing that would set off nuclear war seems to me it's clear the Soviet player would be responsible for the mushroom cloud. He could have CHOSEN a non-battleground country and by so-doing the DEFCON level would not degrade to 1...and BOOM!
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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XoKo wrote:
I'm having a difficult time understanding this one as well. If the USSR player CHOOSES a Coup in a battleground country knowing that would set off nuclear war seems to me it's clear the Soviet player would be responsible for the mushroom cloud. He could have CHOSEN a non-battleground country and by so-doing the DEFCON level would not degrade to 1...and BOOM!


Same as when the USSR player CHOOSES to boycot the olympics, as in the example in the rulebook (8.1.3) -- the phasing player still loses.

So if the opponent can "choose" to make the card you play result in you starting nuclear war, you shouldn't play that card.
 
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Jean-Luc Simard
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AllenDoum wrote:
Jaels wrote:
A couple of questions:

"Lone Gunman"/CIA Created specify to "Conduct Operations with this card normally". If played by the opponent as an ops card because he can't use the event and I get to look at his hand, do I also get a 1 point Ops to use for coup/realignment/influence placing?


Yes. Ops in the text of the event are played.


Ok, this is what we thought.

AllenDoum wrote:
Jaels wrote:
If so, and the DEFCON level was at 2, and my op point is used for a coup in a battleground country, DEFCON would be degraded to 1 and Global Thermonuclear War would occur. The original player of the card would be the losing player, even though the opponent did the coup?


The player who played the card is "at fault", and loses. That player would be advised to bury or hold the card somehow, or improve DEFCON before playing it.


Once again, this is what we thought and how we played it. In this specific case, the player had no choice to play it, having played UN Intervention earlier in the turn (the DEFCON level raised from 4 to 2 afterward due to consecutive coups in Thailand) - that left him with only Lone Gunman in his hand for his 6th action. Since this was our first game with the system, I simply did something else than a coup to solve the problem and continue playing.

AllenDoum wrote:
Jaels wrote:
An additional scenario: Defcon level at 2, Nuclear Subs has been played previously in the turn. US players uses "Lone Gunman" as an ops card, USSR acts on the event to make a coup in a battleground country. Would the DEFCON level be degraded to 1 or not? This happened in our game tonight...


Good question. Will wait for Ananda or Jason to handle this one. Strict reading would say that DEFCON would go to 1 as it is a USSR event, but is playing the card a "US action" as defined by Nuclear Subs?


A similar question: would Nuclear Subs prevent the Defcon degradation of a boycotted Olympic Games played by the US? What if the USSR played the Games and they were boycotted by the US?

Thanks for the quick answers!

P.S.: Funny anecdote from yesterday's game. Turn following the previous situation, I (the USSR) lower the DEFCON to 5 with "How I Learned To Stop Worrying", gaining 5 Military Ops at the same time. Next card play: Arms Race, gaining 3 VPs for having more Mil Ops than opponent and enough to fulfill requirements. Third card play: Cuban Missile Crisis, DEFCON level back to 2. Must have been long nights at the Pentagon.
 
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Allen Doum
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AllenDoum wrote:
Jaels wrote:
An additional scenario: Defcon level at 2, Nuclear Subs has been played previously in the turn. US players uses "Lone Gunman" as an ops card, USSR acts on the event to make a coup in a battleground country. Would the DEFCON level be degraded to 1 or not? This happened in our game tonight...


Good question. Will wait for Ananda or Jason to handle this one. Strict reading would say that DEFCON would go to 1 as it is a USSR event, but is playing the card a "US action" as defined by Nuclear Subs?


Until there is an official answer, I would say that DEFCON would not increase, as the play of "Lone Gunman" is a US action, and the Nuclear Subs would prevent DEFCON from degrading.

That is to say, IMO when Nuclear Subs is in effect, DEFCON is not degraded on US action phase.


Will ask over at CSW, and report back.
 
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Allen Doum
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Ananda has writen on CSW:

Quote:
The U.S. is the phasing player, so the missiles fly and the U.S. player loses. (Imagine if JFK had been shot during the Cuban Missile Crisis!)


Will edit my incorrect response above.
 
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Jean-Luc Simard
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AllenDoum wrote:
Ananda has writen on CSW:

Quote:
The U.S. is the phasing player, so the missiles fly and the U.S. player loses. (Imagine if JFK had been shot during the Cuban Missile Crisis!)


Will edit my incorrect response above.


Thanks for the answer. I can't post on CSW, but with the explanation about CIA Created (which he says can do the same thing for the Russian), it seems Ananda ignored the part about Nuclear Subs preventing DEFCON rising to 1 on a U.S. action. This was the part that confused us.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Back to the original question, there seems to be some conflict with how Lone Gunman's event is applied when the card is played by the US player.

For purposes of determining who loses if DEFCON goes to 1, the event (and corresponding Ops conducted with the event) treat the US player as the phasing player -- as the player who played the card (which he did).

But for the purposes of determining how many points of Ops the USSR may conduct via the event, the ruling given in CSW #1946 is that it is calculated as if the USSR player played the card (so that USSR player receives the "Breshnev Bump" on the Ops value if Breshnev Doctrine has been played).

It seems they should either both treat the USSR player as the phasing player or both not.
 
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Mads S
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Is my opponent allowed to re-examine my hand during the entire round after playing "Lone Gunman", or am I only forced to reveal it once?
 
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brian
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AtomKano wrote:
Is my opponent allowed to re-examine my hand during the entire round after playing "Lone Gunman", or am I only forced to reveal it once?

Just once. There is nothing about it being an open hand after the initial viewing.
 
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Chris Trimmer
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BrianMola wrote:
AtomKano wrote:
Is my opponent allowed to re-examine my hand during the entire round after playing "Lone Gunman", or am I only forced to reveal it once?

Just once. There is nothing about it being an open hand after the initial viewing.


There's nothing about UNrevealing your hand either. Just laying your cards down in front of you is the best way to handle this.
 
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Mads S
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BrianMola wrote:
AtomKano wrote:
Is my opponent allowed to re-examine my hand during the entire round after playing "Lone Gunman", or am I only forced to reveal it once?

Just once. There is nothing about it being an open hand after the initial viewing.


Thanks. I hoped so
 
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brian
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TrimChris wrote:
BrianMola wrote:
AtomKano wrote:
Is my opponent allowed to re-examine my hand during the entire round after playing "Lone Gunman", or am I only forced to reveal it once?

Just once. There is nothing about it being an open hand after the initial viewing.


There's nothing about UNrevealing your hand either. Just laying your cards down in front of you is the best way to handle this.

From the FAQ:

Quote:
Q. Does the USSR hand remain revealed for the entire turn? What happens if the USSR player gains new cards later in the turn?

A. The effect of the card is not ongoing. The USSR only needs to reveal his hand at the time the CIA CREATED card is played.


"Lone Gunman" is the USSR equivalent of "CIA Created" and plays the same way.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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CIA Created says that the player reveals his hand "this turn", indicating that it lasts "this turn".

Neither Jason nor Ananda have ruled otherwise, as far as I know.

The example of play also explicitly confirms what card text indicates (Turn 2 headline). I know that the example contains errors, but still, this is just another indication that the card functions as written, since neither Jason nor Ananda have ruled otherwise (at least, not in a public forum that I can find).

Does anyone have a citation to a ruling from Jason or Ananda to overrule card text and the example of play? Please send me a link if so, so I can add it to the collected rulings. Thanks.

 
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brian
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^
http://boardgamegeek.com/fileinfo.php?fileid=22455
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Thanks, but I've seen the FAQ (and I saw the quote from it).

I'm looking for a ruling from Ananda or Jason regarding the CIA issue, since it runs counter to the card's text and to the rulebook example of play.

 
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brian
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Rulemonger wrote:
Thanks, but I've seen the FAQ (and I saw the quote from it).

I'm looking for a ruling from Ananda or Jason regarding the CIA issue, since it runs counter to the card's text and to the rulebook example of play.


It claims to be approved by Jason and compiled from answers on Consimworld and the Geek. Maybe contact the author and see if he can back up his source.

EDIT:
And in the consimworld thread you gave in your latest post (http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@548.8vZacxIoScu.18@.1dcf...), David (who wrote the above FAQ) again claims that he sends the FAQ to Jason before it is published.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Yes, I understand that Jason "approved" the FAQ. That isn't quite the same thing as writing it, of course. He also implicitly approves of the example of play and of card text, for that matter.

So, again, if anyone has a link to a ruling by Jason or Ananda, please let me know.
 
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