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Subject: Vinci with 5 Players: Big Disadvantage for the Fifth? rss

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Christopher O
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Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
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Played Vinci for the first time last night - I really enjoyed it.

Although I managed to come in second place out of five players, I found that starting out as the fifth player in the first turn, I was quite limited in the number of locations I was able to choose (well, effectively be able to expand out of) and, in addition, the "good" civilization tiles had been picked over. The other four players had expanded their empires over the choicest locations, leaving me either to choose poor terrain, or to try to expand into an already established empire.

Now, granted, the civilization tiles are replaced as each is selected, so I got four new random ones to choose from, but it does seem a little tilted in the favour of those players who get to go first.

As a new player, I might just not see the advantage of being later in the turn order. Can more experienced players point out what benefits there are to being fifth in a five player game?

The only one we (as a group) could come up with at the time was that if someone finished the game with a VP win earlier in the round, you would have at least your final play to try to catch up or surpass the winner. Cold comfort, that seems to me.

This is a great game, and I'll be putting it on my wishlist, but I can't see the advantage of going last, or any compensation mechanics as you usually might find in other games. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to smack me with some obvious benefit that we overlooked, but until then...
 
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Philip Thomas
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You did play with the extra VPs being put on civilisations not chosen? That is really the big benefit for later players. Other than that I guess you have to use diplomacy- if the earlier players are in the lead, gang up on them!
 
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Michel Fortin
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You could try one of the suggestions described in the following thread: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/86631
 
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J C Lawrence
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Use a Twilight Imperium-style start to ensure that the players late in the turn order get good civilisations of their choice.
 
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Bill Allen
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I'd add that smaller and lower scoring civilisations make smaller targets, so they can survive better. This can be particularly good if they have scoring abilities that carry on when the empire is in decline.
 
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Christopher O
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Summer grasses / All that remains / Of soldiers' dreams. - Basho.
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Quote:
You did play with the extra VPs being put on civilisations not chosen? That is really the big benefit for later players.


Yes, we did. Relatively few of them had been skipped over.

I'll take a look at some of those suggestions linked in the other reply.

Thanks.
 
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Randy Brown
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I've always enjoyed going last, even in 5 or 6 player Vinci. Often it means I'll get some passed-over Civ w/ free points, but even if I don't, it helps with the pacing. It helps being the one bringing up the rear for the beginning of the game.
 
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Chris
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I actually think the FIRST player has the biggest disadvantage - the ability to pile on at the end outweights anything the fifth player has to deal with.

It's true that, if the players before you take up a lot of spots, your own choices are less (because, of course, those positions are better defended) - but, by the end of the game, I'm sure, that has evened out...I've never had a problem - and, normally, in my games, whomever is going last or next-to-last, usually ends up winning.

Chris
 
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Paul Richards
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Something the group I play with do in Merchant of Venus that may help is to rotate the turn order each round. That is, the player who finishes a round starts the next. In Vinci, an exception would be made for the first (civilisation choosing) round.
 
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Randy Brown
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That could be interesting.

One reason that I like Vinci the way it is, is that I feel there is a balance between going sooner vs. going later in a turn. The first player has the advantage of picking his Civ first, then coming in anywhere on the board where he can play to Civ's strengths while having no fights more difficult than a 1 army enemy. As successive players come in, they must either fight active Civs, or go somewhere else (which may score less points, though it may not depending on the Civs picked). The players who go toward the end get the benefit of picking up freebie points off of unwanted Civs. Also, they can pick exactly which region to occupy, knowing how the other players have spread out. Then in the end-game. The last players have the last laugh. They will know exactly what score they must try to beat. Ofcourse in the final round, the first players have the benefit of being able to beat down on the yet-to-play players.

I think that these benefits balance nicely, and they make your strategy a bit different depending on where you sit in turn order. That makes the game fun for re-play, b/c you get a different game each time. Changing the set turn order, may hamper the game by affecting this balance.

Still anything that gets you to play this game is good in my book.
 
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Poochie D
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discoking7 wrote:
That could be interesting. I'm unclear on what you mean by the first round. You seem to imply that on the first round, you all just choose a Civ, and start play with the second round. Since you choose and play during the first round, there really isn't any reason why your variant wouldn't work right off the bat.


furrymerchant is correct. See paragraph 5 of the Setting Up section of the rules. On the first turn, everybody picks their starting civ, and then enters the board on the next turn.
 
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Randy Brown
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I stand corrected. It seems a silly rule, probably dreamed up by those damnable knights of Camelot.
 
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Jim Hogan
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I thought going last was great. I was able to plow into one of the preceding people and basically make them want to go into decline and start a new one. I ended up second and lost only by one point. As far as multiple games I think I'd rather go later, but there will be times it would hurt.
 
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