Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Twilight Struggle» Forums » Rules

Subject: Quagmire / Bear Trap & Missile Envy rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A couple questions on these cards:
- When a Quagmire/Bear Trap is played, can the affected player discard on opponent's event? (It just seems like an easy way to dispose of a painful event card--though you would lose the ops value.)

- When a Missile Envy is played and the opponent hands over a Quagmire/Bear Trap that affects him, what happens? Since the Missile Envy states the opponent must play Missile Envy on his next card round for 2 ops, but the Quagmire/Bear Trap requires discard an Ops 3 or higher. (We played it the Missile Envy turn was done on the next card play and then the Q/BT went into effect.)

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I have asked this, and related questions on CSW and gotten the following answers:

First Quagmire/Bear Trap normally require the discard of a 2 Op, not a 3 Op card. So Missile Envy could be discarded.

If the player under the influence of Quagmire/Bear Trap were also under the effects of Red Scare/Purge, then a 3 Op card would have to be discarded. Under this circumstance, Missile Envy could not be played or discarded, and would have to be held played for Ops at the earliest time, when Quagmire/Bear Trap expires, even if that is in the next turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hannes Riener
Austria
Vienna
Austria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Just to make the Quagmire / Bear Trap clear for me -

First I thought you handle it that way: discard a 2+ Ops, roll the die - if it shows a 6 your phase is over.

But my opponent disagreed and after rereading the card text, I guess he is right: even if you fail in rolling against the card, you still can play a (2nd) card for acting (that implifies the last sentence).

Correct?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Right
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hannes wrote:
Just to make the Quagmire / Bear Trap clear for me -

First I thought you handle it that way: discard a 2+ Ops, roll the die - if it shows a 6 your phase is over.

But my opponent disagreed and after rereading the card text, I guess he is right: even if you fail in rolling against the card, you still can play a (2nd) card for acting (that implifies the last sentence).

Correct?


You were correct. The discard and roll is the only thing that you do in the action round. If you less than a five, you can resume playing normally in the next action round. If you have no cards that meet the Ops requirement of the discard, you must hold the cards until next turn. Scoring cards are the only exception, as they cannot be held. While this may continue into the new turn, it does not affect the Headline Phase.

And you can discard your opponents events, as long as the Ops number is high enough.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hannes, you are correct except with Q/BT, it stays in effect on a 5 or a 6. (The cards say less than 5.)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hannes Riener
Austria
Vienna
Austria
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, thanks guys.

Oops - Rich, sure, of course less then

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Donnelly
United States
Los Angeles
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Sorry, Richard, just got confusing again for a second. Are you saying if you roll a 5-6 you cannot play another card or you can?

The comment "you are right" is confusing because he thought one way, but then agreed with his opponent to the opposite line of thinking.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Richard was "correcting" the use of the "6" as an example.

Hannes says that he first thought "if it shows a 6 your phase is over."

But it's not. Even if you roll a 6, you take your normal action round (play a card for event or ops).

Richard read Hannes's example as saying that "if and only if it shows a 6 ...", so he ammended that to remind everyone that a 5 is just as "failed" as a 6 is.

The only effect a roll of 5 or 6 has is that the "penalty" effect of quagmire/bear trap is not ended -- you'll have to discard another card on your next turn (and then, again, make another roll to see if the effect ends).

So all in all, the effect of bear trap/quagmire is:

1) start your action round
2) Do you have any 2+ ops card in your hand? If yes: you must discard one of them (it has no effect, no matter what nationality the effect applies to); go to 3. If no: the effect of BT/Q is ended; go to 4.
3) Roll a die. Is the number less than 5? If yes: the effect of BT/Q is ended; go to 4. If no: Go to 4 (the effect of BT/Q is not ended).
4) Take your action (play a card as normal, if you have any left).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry, your answer is incorrect.

Rulemonger wrote:
1) start your action round
2) Do you have any 2+ ops card in your hand? If yes: you must discard one of them (it has no effect, no matter what nationality the effect applies to); go to 3.


So far, correct.

Quote:
If no: the effect of BT/Q is ended; go to 4.


The effect is not ended when you run out of cards. You must play scoring cards then. If no "approriate" or scoring cards you pass.

Quote:
3) Roll a die. Is the number less than 5? If yes: the effect of BT/Q is ended; go to 4. If no: Go to 4 (the effect of BT/Q is not ended).


You only roll if you discarded a card

Quote:
4) Take your action (play a card as normal, if you have any left).


This is what is wrong. You do not play a card in addition to the discard. The discard and roll is all you do in the action round.

The effect does not end at the end of the turn. The last sentence refers to the restriction of playing scoring cards. It ends only when you roll less than 5 after discarding. (That is why the event name is underlined. The effects can last until the next turn.)((And yes, I know that the underlines are not all consistent. This one has been confirmed by Jason on CSW.))

Note: If you hold scoring cards, you must play them by the end of the turn, even if you still have "appropriate" cards, suspending (not ending) the effects of Bear Trap/Quagmire.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:
Sorry, your answer is incorrect.

Rulemonger wrote:

3) Roll a die. Is the number less than 5? If yes: the effect of BT/Q is ended; go to 4. If no: Go to 4 (the effect of BT/Q is not ended).


You only roll if you discarded a card


Well, at least we agree on that -- the outline/pseudocode matches the assertion that "You only roll if you discarded a card".

Quote:
Quote:
4) Take your action (play a card as normal, if you have any left).


This is what is wrong. You do not play a card in addition to the discard. The discard and roll is all you do in the action round.


Really?
Hmm. Card text offers no indication that the discard replaces the action round.
I hadn't heard the official ruling on that. But OK. I yield on the basis of my ignorance. :-)
Thanks for updating me.

Quote:

The effect does not end at the end of the turn. The last sentence refers to the restriction of playing scoring cards. It ends only when you roll less than 5 after discarding. (That is why the event name is underlined. The effects can last until the next turn.)((And yes, I know that the underlines are not all consistent. This one has been confirmed by Jason on CSW.))


But doesn't the card say that the effect ends if you cannot discard a 2+ ops? Or is this errata to it?

(I think I'll just take BT/Q out of my decks -- confusing at a minimum, and these rulings seem to just make them more unfun).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Matthews
United States
Alexandria
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Allen has this correct. You do not resume normal operations until the turn AFTER you escape the bear trap.

Jason
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Scott-

Ananda and Jason have been alerted to this thread, and one will probably come along soon before now..

The text on the cards could have been clearer. I based my answer in part on responses they have given on CSW.

That doesn't mean that they might not override my answer.

I don't think you should remove the cards. Yes, they are among the most complex events to implement, but the potential nastiness is what makes them fun. arrrh
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JasonMatthews wrote:
Allen has this correct. You do not resume normal operations until the turn AFTER you escape the bear trap.

Jason


Don't you mean "Action Round", not turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
JasonMatthews wrote:
Allen has this correct. You do not resume normal operations until the turn AFTER you escape the bear trap.

Jason


OK -- I'll add that to my copy of the errata list.

But what about how to end the bear trap? It ends if you roll a 1-4, obviously, but can it also be ended when you cannot discard a 2+ ops?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:
I don't think you should remove the cards. Yes, they are among the most complex events to implement, but the potential nastiness is what makes them fun. arrrh


Well, I'll agree that different folks find different things fun. But for me, having fun playing a game involves playing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rulemonger wrote:


But what about how to end the bear trap? It ends if you roll a 1-4, obviously, but can it also be ended when you cannot discard a 2+ ops?


Reconfirmed by Jason (on CSW). It only ends on the die roll, not at the end of a turn.

As for the arrrh fun: The victim gets to discard his opponents events, while the other player may get a few action rounds in without response. How are either of those things not fun.

And, as it has been pointed out eslewhere, it is not hard to escape the trap. And those games where someone misses several rolls will be memorable. And end short. cool
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:
Rulemonger wrote:


But what about how to end the bear trap? It ends if you roll a 1-4, obviously, but can it also be ended when you cannot discard a 2+ ops?


Reconfirmed by Jason (on CSW). It only ends on the die roll, not at the end of a turn.


Um? OK.

Not sure why "end of a turn" keeps popping in there. I get that the official idea of what the cards are supposed to do involves going on and on until a die roll of less than 5 is achieved, but the two cards clearly disagree. Card text says that the effect is repeated "until successful or no appropriate cards remain".

Is there any explanation on CSW for how to get the official play out of the actual card text?

If it's errata to the cards, I'd really like to see someone official use the word "errata" in the description of how they want it to be played so that at least I can rest easy knowing that the card text is being purposefully overruled. It would be even better if some reason for the errata were given (i.e., how play balance suffers without it or somesuch), but that's just the TCG player in me (where, with the thousands of cards being spun in the mix, it's better to let card text hold sway whenever possible, even if designer intent didn't quite make it through). But seeing as the card exists in identical forms for both sides, that doesn't seem likely.

The only way I can see to read card text and get the "until a roll of less than 5 is achieved" would involve running contrary to the other (non text-based, as far as I can tell) ruling on these cards: that the affected player cannot play cards in the action round. That is, card text would be read as follows (with explanatory interpretations in parentheses -- interpretations which do not involve changing the meaning of the rest of the text):

"In the action round, the target must discard Op2+ and roll <5. He must do so until successful or no appropriate cards remain. While out of appropriate cards, (the effect is suspended, but) the player is restricted to playing only scoring cards (until he can again discard Op2+ to attempt another roll)."

Oh, and thanks for playing courier to CSW, Allen.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Allen Doum
United States
Orange County
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The effect is repeated until no appropriate cards are left. Then you can't play anything except scoring cards until the end of the turn. But the card isn't canceled until you roll >5. I realize that is not the only way that the text can be parsed, but it should be easy to explain.

I, too, with that that cards had explictly stated that the discard replaced the regular play. But nowhere does it state that you play (or discard) more than one card per round. (Except on UN Intervention.) The closest wording to that effect is at 4.5 D. The example at 5.3 refers to "playing" a card to meet the requirement of Quagmire.

Any text expanded enough to go into the desired detail, would be to long to put on the card without reducing the type size. These are already some of the most complex events.

Some of these CDGs end up needing Card Clrification list that are nealry as long as the rules. (TNW, anyone?) I don't think that Twilight Struggle will get anywhere near that.

As to the courier duty, as long as it doesn't interfer with playing, there is no problem.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
L. Scott Johnson
United States
Columbia
South Carolina
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AllenDoum wrote:
The effect is repeated until no appropriate cards are left. Then you can't play anything except scoring cards until the end of the turn. But the card isn't canceled until you roll >5. I realize that is not the only way that the text can be parsed, but it should be easy to explain.


You mean less than 5, of course.

It's not a matter of being one among many parsings.
It's a matter of not being among any the parsings.

With the card text as printed, you can't get to the official play rules.

"Repeat each US/USSR player phase until successful or no appropriate cards remain" doesn't offer the wiggle room needed to get to the official play.

Yes, it is easy to explain, once you have it explained to you. It is impossible to derive from reading (and following as written) the text on the card. That's all well and good. It just seems to me that perhaps Jason is looking at this soley from a designer intent perspective without noting that the card text has fallen short of that intent.

Quote:
I, too, with that that cards had explictly stated that the discard replaced the regular play. But nowhere does it state that you play (or discard) more than one card per round. (Except on UN Intervention.) The closest wording to that effect is at 4.5 D. The example at 5.3 refers to "playing" a card to meet the requirement of Quagmire.


This is getting farther away from the point than I'd need, but OK.

Nowhere do the rules state many of the effects found on the cards, true. That's the primary purpose of card text -- to describe the effects of the cards. Per section 5.5 (card text supercedes the rules).

Nowhere do the rules allow you to discard any cards at all without using the effect (using neither the event nor the ops). It mentions that events might cause such a discard, but that's it.

So the combination of the two indicates that the discard is something outside the normal rules.

More closely parallel, when the USSR player plays Latin American Debt Crisis, the US player must discard a 3+ Ops. This happens in addition to the play of cards described in the rules. BT/Q is worded the same way -- as something that happens in addition to the play of cards described in the rules.

Similarly for the Terrorism card -- does the instruction to discard imply that the target player is to discard a card in place of his next action round? Of course not.

The effect of "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..." includes discards (more than 1) which necessarily come in addition to the play of a card in the normal fashion.

Indeed, in every event that involves a player discarding cards, the discard is in addition to the normal play of cards. Except for the official interpretation of BT/Q.

Quote:
Any text expanded enough to go into the desired detail, would be to long to put on the card without reducing the type size. These are already some of the most complex events.


Something to resolve before production, yes. For instance, to achieve the official interpretation: "Instead of playing a card during the action round, the USSR player must attempt to end this effect by discarding an Operations card worth 2 or more. The attempt is successful on a roll of less than 5. If out of appropriate cards, the USSR player may play a scoring card. Remove from play if used as an event." (Quagmire similarly, of course.) And note that the "or more" is unnecessary, thanks to 5.3.

But that's just a secondary issue. The primary issue is using the text as it wound up being printed -- avoiding errata unless necessary for game balance (as in the Australian 4 influence start for US).

Quote:
Some of these CDGs end up needing Card Clrification list that are nealry as long as the rules. (TNW, anyone?) I don't think that Twilight Struggle will get anywhere near that.


Well, this is my first exposure to CDGs -- the theme is what got me in -- so I the comparisons are lost on me, sorry. But I hope that Twilight Struggle doesn't get anywhere farther down that path than it needs to, regardless of what the other games are slinging. :-)

Quote:
As to the courier duty, as long as it doesn't interfer with playing, there is no problem.


A pleasure working with you.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Wilson
United States
Carsoin
California
flag msg tools
Any Card-based game with text, whether card-driven or a total CCG is going to have errata, rulings, etc.

Why is this?

1) Rules lawyers like myself, who will give themselves mental hernias trying to read a card with an interpretation that benefits them.

2) Card interaction that is not seen in playtest. While most card interaction will occur in any decent playtest, some don't show up.

3) The English language in written form, as with most languages, I suppose if not all, is read with different intonation and at times subject to multiple interpretations. In the case of Quagmire, the card text would suggest to me that the effect ends when there are no appropriate cards left to play. If the card text stopped there, the card would not be clear.

However, both cards GO ON to state that if either player does not have the appropriate cards he can only play scoring cards. With that written, the card is very clear. The only ambiguity is whether the effect ends immediately and allows the player to resume action and that was resolved by ruling.

Twilight Struggle, thus far, has only a few of the card interactions that are problematic. The designer has been QUICK to respond to issues, both here and on Consimworld. There are some issues with the game, but given the fairly low complexity, the game is great as it is and we can deal with the issues as they come up.

Once again, the issue of errata and corrections comes up. Most CDG games have a large number of RULINGS that must be made. CCG's have even more. One of my favorite CCG's is Doomtown. I have an entire notebook which contains the FAQ (basic questions about rules) and the Accumulated Rulings which are divided by card type (not a factor in Twilight Struggle) and listed in Alphabetical order. Therefore, if you want to see the rulings on a goods card called "spirit pipe" you turn to the section of the rulings on goods and search in alphabetical order. I am currently working on a FAQ that will contain accumulated rulings for this game. It is not official, but I have sent a copy to Jason to make certain I've got things right.

There are some errors that make GMT just look plain sloppy on this one, though. The glaring mis-spelling of the word Republic should cause a little embarrassment to the editors because it makes them look a little sloppy. It would be my guess that they were going over the printed stability numbers, making certain that none of them had changed.

However, the gang at GMT have given us a great game, with no real play problems. I remember when Warcraft the boardgame came out. It was a great design regarding mechanics, but showed a definite lack of playtesting because several of the races could gain powers that made them literally unbeatable. Our first game showed this up... The only guess we could make was that the game was rushed out the door with a minimal playtest in order to conincide as closely as possible with the release of WarCraft III for the computer.

Games are going to have some errors in them. We can say that things are better than the old Avalon Hill days because we have the internet. This does not mean editors should not look carefully at a map before it is published.

Still, I keep coming back (meandering about) to the fact that outside of the map errors and initial setup, there don't seem to be any real balance issues or glaring rule contradictions. Some confusion in play examples and unforeseen card interaction.

The rule of thumb on this one is play it, play it, then play it again. It is a great game that is very worth your time to play.

I'd like to see someone figure out a decent way to play it solitaire. I've seen a suggestion or two on Consimworld, but none of them really made soliataire a viable option, yet!

David "the preacher" Wilson
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.