Recommend
75 
 Thumb up
 Hide
1106 Posts
[1]  Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [45] | 

Android: Netrunner» Forums » Strategy

Subject: [Deck] Unveiling NBN "Never Advance" rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: forum [+] A:N-decks [+] [View All]
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Tuism wrote:
solidoakshelh wrote:
Yeah. Why aren't you running Melange?


You don't really want to end up spending all your turn to take money - this deck needs tricks to do things. Plus it doesn't defend very well - the defence should be there to bluff, and letting the runner run all over may not be the best idea.

That said, this deck is built sturdier and less tricky than my version so it may work. I just especially don't like the super low trash cost.

If I'm going to blow all my ice to make the runner run, it better be for a better reason than to get a melange trashed... I prefer Red Herring, Ash, or Edge


No Tu, you are right. Melange won't work in this except for very early in the game, and if you are able to protect a Melange in the early game, just use the same time and protection to score agendas instead. If you get 2 agendas scored while the Runner can't break into Chimera (that's your most realistic Melange protection in this deck), then it's worth going broke to get it done, because the deck is 5x more dangerous when a couple agendas are scored, either due to PSF being out, having a couple Astroscript tokens available to close the game out, or being able to murder their bank account by tracing them once a turn with Datapool.

Melange will never survive in this deck once you reach midgame, so it got cut for other tools (actually, it never got included in the first place).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Benjamin Heitmann
Germany
Weingarten
flag msg tools
Lluluien, this is a great thread, and your deck is brilliant! Thanks a lot for sharing your strategy.

Over the last few days, I also have been trying to build an interesting NBN deck which is not focused completely on fast advance. And I too have been coming to the conclusion that while NBN provides an abundance of trace opportunities, there are not a lot of cards to punish those traces. So I also came to the conclusion that it would be very interesting to put ambushes in an NBN deck.

Your analysis of the different ways in which an agenda can be scored faster was very interesting to me. And your strategy of putting out multiple unrezzed cards before the end of a turn, and them fully advancing an agenda in the next turn if possible, is quite brilliant!

However, I have a few questions after reading the deck list:

1.) Why do you think that ambushes which can not be advanced work better in your deck than advanceable ambushes ? Is that just because you dont want to waste resources on the ambush? Given the fact that you have a 3/5 agenda in the deck, this would nicely add to the confusion of the runner.

2.) What do you think of having a colourful mix of ambushes in such a deck? AFAIK there are 5 ambushes right now: NBN: ghost branch; HB: aggressive secretary; Jinteki: Snare, edge of world, Project Junebug.
And you want the runner not to know into what he is running. So having e.g. one of each ambush sounds like it would make the deck even more unpredictable for the runner.

3.) What will change when Project Beale comes out? What else would you change besides swapping PSF for Project Beale? Do you think this will make ChiLo city grid viable? (I was thinking this might even make using Oversight AI and expensive out of faction ice a good idea in NBN.)

4.) Did you try having 3 x Aggressive Negotiations in your deck? Would it be a good idea to have a tutor card in your current build ?

I am looking forward to your answers a lot!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
metaman wrote:
Lluluien, this is a great thread, and your deck is brilliant! Thanks a lot for sharing your strategy.


Thanks! I'm glad you like it!

To address your questions:

metaman wrote:
1.) Why do you think that ambushes which can not be advanced work better in your deck than advanceable ambushes ? Is that just because you dont want to waste resources on the ambush? Given the fact that you have a 3/5 agenda in the deck, this would nicely add to the confusion of the runner.


One of the original motivations for the deck was not wanting to have to spend resources on the ambush if it failed. While these ambushes also require credits to be paid to activate, that only happens when they "explode". I don't have to pay the cost up front, possibly wasting it if the Runner doesn't take the bait. However, an even better reason is that the unadvanceable ambushes can be represented by the economy cards as well, which aids in the ability to bluff a trap. If I had advanceable traps, these would be distinguishable from the economy cards by the Runner even if they were facedown, because they must be advanced to cause any harm. If a facedown trap has to have a token on it in order to be threatening, the economy assets can no longer masquerade as a threatening trap. That's one of the biggest threats in this deck - the agendas, traps, and assets all look the same to the Runner.

While it's true that scoring Restructured Datapool is hard (because it needs two fast advance mechanisms to be scored from a never-advanced state), this means that Datapool will normally just have to be scored on a turn when the Runner knows what it is, but simply can't do anything about it. This window of opportunity normally does happen 1-2 times in a game, and it can often be created proactively with a well-timed Breaking News->Closed Accounts combo.

Datapool is a handy card to have scored, but you're right to think it really doesn't fit the strategy of the deck. Project Beale will take it's place when it is released; it fits the strategy of the deck quite nicely as an additional 3/2 agenda that can be scored without fast advance mechanisms after it is in play for 1 turn. The only reason that Datapool is in the deck is because it's the best fit amongst things that are not Project Beale

metaman wrote:
2.) What do you think of having a colourful mix of ambushes in such a deck? AFAIK there are 5 ambushes right now: NBN: ghost branch; HB: aggressive secretary; Jinteki: Snare, edge of world, Project Junebug.
And you want the runner not to know into what he is running. So having e.g. one of each ambush sounds like it would make the deck even more unpredictable for the runner.


I understand the motivation of the question, but including all of the ambushes actually makes the deck more predictable instead of less predictable, again based on the idea that my agendas and assets will look the same when they are put into play and the Runner begins his turn: facedown, with no advancement tokens. In this deck, putting an advanced trap out means that it can only be Junebug, Aggressive Secretary, or Ghost Branch. Putting an unadvanced trap out means that it could be an Astroscript, Breaking News, Private Security Force, SanSan, Red Herrings, Snare, Edge of World, PAD Campaign, or Marked Accounts. This is the concept of "masquerading" I mentioned earlier; any of my cards that aren't ICE or Operations all look the same when I put them into play (with the notable exception of Restructured Datapool from question 1).

metaman wrote:
3.) What will change when Project Beale comes out? What else would you change besides swapping PSF for Project Beale? Do you think this will make ChiLo city grid viable? (I was thinking this might even make using Oversight AI and expensive out of faction ice a good idea in NBN.)


Restructured Datapool x2 will be exchanged for Project Beale x3. The Private Security Force has to stay - removing it would completely cripple the deck; the reasoning is explained in several of my earlier posts. You could possibly run something similar in concept to this without Private Security Force if you could wiggle in a couple copies of Scorched Earth, but the influence cost of that card is brutal. Rest assured, however, that if we ever get a 22 influence identity for NBN that will allow me to run Jinteki and Weyland cards similar to the HB one spoiled in the upcoming Creation and Control expansion, the very first thing I'll do is try out Scorched Earth in this deck. Do note, however, that Private Security Force fits so well in the deck that I'd leave them in there even if I could also include Scorched Earth!

The idea of using ChiLo city grid with expensive Oversighted ICE to protect a Project Beale that you intend to overscore is certainly an intriguing one, and I'm sure I'll try to build a deck that does that as well. That said, such a deck strategy is almost entirely the opposite of the one I use for this deck. Note in the case of overscoring Project Beale, the ambushes you want in your deck will be Ghost Branch and Project Junebug. Going back to the concept of masquerading, that's because you want to have a non-agenda card that "masquerades" as your important agenda. Ghost Branch does this because you have good reason to put 13 counters on it - if you get 13 tags on the runner, you can turn install and score 7 points with Project Beale in one turn if you have Psychographics and 13 credits. Obviously in a majority of games you won't have to get all 7 points at once; this example just illustrates why you can play Ghost Branch in such a way that the Runner may mistake it for Project Beale. Junebug can also masquerade as the important agenda, because if you can convince the Runner to access a Junebug with 4+ tokens on it in fear that they will otherwise let you score an over-advanced Project Beale, then you'll win by flatlining them instead. One advantage this deck will lose compared to the one I posted here is that the economy cards will not be able to masquerade as traps. However, 3 influence to include 3 copies of Junebug is significantly less influence than the 10 I use for 3 Snares and 2 Edge of Worlds. Having 7 more influence to spend on other things would be an advantage that this alternate strategy would have over mine.

metaman wrote:
4.) Did you try having 3 x Aggressive Negotiations in your deck? Would it be a good idea to have a tutor card in your current build ?


I haven't tried this yet, but because much of the deck's threat comes from scored agendas, being able to play them quickly when an opportune time arises would be a pretty powerful ability. Aggressive Negotiations is easy to use in this deck too, because scoring Breaking News from the never-advanced state leaves a click left at the end of your turn. In addition to that, consider the following chain of events:

1) The Runner has never played the deck before
2) They have not yet seen Edge of World
3) You have Edge of World in hand
4) You play Aggressive Negotiations and retrieve Astroscript
5) You put Edge of World in play in your main remote server

Having Edge of World and Aggressive Negotiations in hand together wouldn't be that uncommon over the course of a whole game, so this situation wouldn't be terribly uncommon so long as #1 is true. I would hazard a guess that in this situation, 80-90% of Runners will take you up on accessing Edge of World, so long as your remote server isn't impregnable.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Moore
United States
Tallahassee
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I play a similar NBN deck and the exact concepts Llu talks about has won me many games. My last resulted in placing a Pad campaign down behind an unrezzed tollbooth. I was planning to make it a server to put my RDP in the future so I threw a Data Raven in front of it. The Data Raven was already rez'd due to a run that ended and the corp played a FAO on my Tollbooth, took me to nothing to rez it. That made the runner think it was already a RDP. On my next turn I got my drip economy in from the other marked and pad, dropped a chum in front of the DR and passed after taking creds. The runner threw a FF out for TB, ran wiping their economy breaking through and taking a tag to hit the Pad. That type of thing happens constantly, bluffing my drip econ cards as agendas.

Exactly as he mentioned my plan is to swap out the RDP for Project Baele to make it so the only agenda over 3 is PSF which can be easily scored with tokens from APP. Also I play 2 Snare and 2 Scorched Earth forgoing the EotW. Getting one counter on Data Raven (to add to this, Data Raven + Chum is sexy) means that as soon as I have a PSF scored the game is over (unless the runner is packing Bad Publicity, which I haven't seen yet on OCTGN). I win that way probably ~40% of the time.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric F
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
RTFM!
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
lluluien wrote:
You'll note the continuing theme of the importance of having PSF scored in this deck. I've often given the advice to folks looking to construct an NBN deck that they ought to consider running 3 copies of PSF even in a fast advance deck, because it IS, in fact, sufficient tag punishment, though people seem to underestimate how valuable it is (at least in NBN - I can't give it the same recommendation in other factions simply because I haven't playtested them there).


Don't worry; I know how important a scored PSF is. =) And I run 3 because, esp in my fast advance, I often can't dig enough agendas out to score them in time.

I'm also familiar with most of the Breaking News scoring tricks, including using it to win with PSF (although I'm more a fan of Psycho myself).

===

I'm personally not a huge fan of Snare as a surprise catch-off-guard kill-with-PSF condition. While a 4th click Snare is a guaranteed kill if you can pay for it, people are learning very quickly not to run on their last clicks. I'm still not personally convinced that Snare + Data Raven + scored PSF combo for a kill is worth it, as deliciously evil as that is. Also, PSF scored mid-game or without an Astroscript to support it needs to be installed with an advancement, going against the "Never Advance" theme (bend the theme to win, I understand!).

===

Aggressive Negotiations works better in a "sits-here-advanced" deck. The combo setup is have a fully scored Breaking News behind an Ice Wall end of turn 2. Turn 3 combo into an advantage (hand-clear with SE, BB > Install PSF > Psycho Score). Aggressive Negotiations for whatever you need from your hand to fuel the combo after the one you've already drawn, or to grab a missing piece you're looking for.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Moore
United States
Tallahassee
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ignisphaseone wrote:
I'm personally not a huge fan of Snare as a surprise catch-off-guard kill-with-PSF condition. While a 4th click Snare is a guaranteed kill if you can pay for it, people are learning very quickly not to run on their last clicks. I'm still not personally convinced that Snare + Data Raven + scored PSF combo for a kill is worth it, as deliciously evil as that is. Also, PSF scored mid-game or without an Astroscript to support it needs to be installed with an advancement, going against the "Never Advance" theme (bend the theme to win, I understand!).


I play Snare predominantly to protect my HQ and R&D for surprise damage + tag to slow the runner down early game. Even if the run is on the 3rd click, that only leaves time to get the tag off. It still decimates their hand, leaving them open to a Sea Source and a Scorched Earth or a Data Raven token + PSF for a win. Late game when I'm one agenda shy of winning I'll throw it down to force the runner to run it, not for the tag (though that's just a side benefit), but to make them blow resources on getting to it. It doesn't always work, particularly when the runner is using exposes, but it fits the theme of "run this or I can score it next turn" threats. I've had people stim hack into a Snare and kill themselves because they had to stop me from scoring an agenda and they couldn't risk leaving it go.

As a side note, Snare and Scorched Earth aren't the way I built the deck to win. They're more just huge drains on the runner, in addition to paying large sums of money to trash Pads and Marked Accounts. It's all about increasing those points during a game where I can safely play and score agendas and to force the runner to slow down their credit generation by drawing, either after getting hit with one of them or just keeping their hand count high to avoid flatlining. The main way I focus my play is winning by agenda scoring.

That is interesting though, the idea of playing Aggressive Negotiations or Score BN > BB > PSF > Psycho. I just like the Chum Data Raven or Chum Tollbooth (FF bypass triggering) combos and the added threat of SE + Snare + PSF. Doesn't leave me any influence left over. I don't have any BB in my deck, though I've debated what I could thin out to add it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Arto H
Finland
Helsinki
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I would think this kind of masquerade deck would work better with HB. I feel they have better economy and ICE (+6x 3/2 agendas).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric F
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
badge
RTFM!
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Niil945 wrote:
That is interesting though, the idea of playing Aggressive Negotiations or Score BN > BB > PSF > Psycho. I just like the Chum Data Raven or Chum Tollbooth (FF bypass triggering) combos and the added threat of SE + Snare + PSF. Doesn't leave me any influence left over. I don't have any BB in my deck, though I've debated what I could thin out to add it.


Not 100% sold on BB unless you're using Psycho, and unless you plan on Psychoing into a PSF lock itself (which I've done as one of the many deck setups), BB would be there to delay a runner further with tags they accrue early/mid game (taking that risk).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Pavlos Pavlopoulos
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
mbmb
Very nice! You have answered all my questions except one (I think...):

Do you consistently have enough money to use SanSan? Your non-ICE economy is weak, and I have never tried out 3xPopUp+Caduceus to know how well they work as econ.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jensen
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kordan11 wrote:
Very nice! You have answered all my questions except one (I think...):

Do you consistently have enough money to use SanSan? Your non-ICE economy is weak, and I have never tried out 3xPopUp+Caduceus to know how well they work as econ.

I second this question.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
kordan11 wrote:
Very nice! You have answered all my questions except one (I think...):

Do you consistently have enough money to use SanSan? Your non-ICE economy is weak, and I have never tried out 3xPopUp+Caduceus to know how well they work as econ.


I don't normally have the money to use it early. I do normally have the money to rez it late in the final push to win. SanSan in my deck normally serves as a closeout timer for the Runner; once I'm up to 5 points, if I have SanSan in play, they either have to go hunt it down (and often eat a trap doing it), or the game threatens to be over the next time I draw something I can fast-advance. Putting the game on this timer helps a lot with combating the Shaper strategy of "well I'll just turtle until I can take 15 cards out of your R&D at the same time". They either have to start running R&D earlier than they would like to in an effort to soft-lock you, which slows them down, or they have to accept that if they can't make their gambit play in time, they'll lose. The same goes for Noise - he either has to run Archives before he's certain he's got enough agendas in there to win in one run, or accept that he might wait too long and lose anyway.

This is actually an area I'm willing to take a little risk on anyway when playing this deck. If you start using fast-advance too soon, the Runner might decide to stop running your cards the first turn you put them into play, since they'll assume they're not agendas or you would just fast-advance them instead. Not only do you save the money if you can avoid rezzing SanSan, it helps keep them on their toes too. If you can no longer bait them into running the cards in your main server, you'll start losing the economy war, since baiting them into wasted runs is this deck's principle means of controlling their economy.

SanSan provides another benefit even if it never gets rezzed though. If you install a trap in your main server and they don't take the bait, you can bait them again by putting SanSan in on top of the trap, and that's often enough to nudge them into running the server. If I had more deck space to include upgrades for this purpose, I would!


Addressing the more implicit question, Pop-up Window and Caduceus have worked very well for me as economy in the early game, but Caduceus falls off later when they just break it instead. Pop-up Window has an interesting late game advantage, though. As many people have pointed out in the thread in their questions, most Runners try to set themselves up to close out the late game by running your central servers, perhaps even 4-5 times in one turn. If the Runner fails to win when this happens and they've run through a Pop-up Window each time, you'll often then have enough money to rez SanSan. That's just one of many ways the "all your centrals are belong to us" strategy can backfire against this deck.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
aHein wrote:
I would think this kind of masquerade deck would work better with HB. I feel they have better economy and ICE (+6x 3/2 agendas).


This is a good idea; I'll have to try it in HB!

There are a couple of issues with this, though. You could forgo the Caduceus and replace the economy with HB's identity, but you would still only be able to include 2 of either Data Raven or Tollbooth. Because of that, losing NBN's identity, and not having influence for Closed Accounts, I think you would no longer run tagging and PSF as an alternative win condition. The problem with not having that as a win condition is that it makes Snare! and Edge of World much less threatening to the Runner.

I think if I designed a similar deck in HB, I would discover that this NBN version works better, but I think there's enough of a chance this could work in HB to verify that with playtesting.

That said, if FFG comes out with any additional unadvanceable ambushes that attack the Runner in other ways besides damaging their Grip, then PSF/tags would no longer be required to make the archetype sufficiently threatening. At that point, I think there's a good chance an HB version of this would work just as well (or maybe even better)!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jensen
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the deck a lot.

I recognize the strengths and believe I am fully aware of (what I see) as only 2.5 weaknesses.

1) Low Economy. Imp and MO players will trash Marked Accounts, PAD Campaigns and other Asset Economy.
2) The dependence on scoring AsPP is huge. PSF and RDP are two agendas that can't scored without. ... This actually isn't so bad, since you can always advance them the normal route.
3) The half reason, is that the ICE isn't going to stop the glory runs we've all come to see. A desperation dive into R&D + HQ or even stopping that 'predictable SanSan for the win.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
ignisphaseone wrote:
I'm personally not a huge fan of Snare as a surprise catch-off-guard kill-with-PSF condition. While a 4th click Snare is a guaranteed kill if you can pay for it, people are learning very quickly not to run on their last clicks. I'm still not personally convinced that Snare + Data Raven + scored PSF combo for a kill is worth it, as deliciously evil as that is. Also, PSF scored mid-game or without an Astroscript to support it needs to be installed with an advancement, going against the "Never Advance" theme (bend the theme to win, I understand!).


The point isn't that Data Raven + Snare is the combo win condition I'm seeking, the point is that the implied threat it gives to using Medium on my R&D makes the Runner very wary of doing this to me unless they think they can win the game on their current turn. I only win about 30% of my games to flatlining the runner, but using the threat of flatlining as something of a pressure-release valve on all the bad things the Runner wants to do to me helps me win the other 70% by scoring agendas.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
notyetsuperman wrote:
I like the deck a lot.

I recognize the strengths and believe I am fully aware of (what I see) as only 2.5 weaknesses.

1) Low Economy. Imp and MO players will trash Marked Accounts, PAD Campaigns and other Asset Economy.
2) The dependence on scoring AsPP is huge. PSF and RDP are two agendas that can't scored without. ... This actually isn't so bad, since you can always advance them the normal route.
3) The half reason, is that the ICE isn't going to stop the glory runs we've all come to see. A desperation dive into R&D + HQ or even stopping that 'predictable SanSan for the win.


1) Imp and MO are definitely two of the biggest threats to this deck. MO threatens the economy of any Corp deck though, and I actually make more of my money through Pop-up Window and Caduceus than I do through the drip economy cards. If that seems confusing, that's good - it needs to be confusing to the Runner as well. Those cards are in the deck precisely because I want the Runner to spend credits against the high cost of trashing them. Making themselves temporarily poor is often the small advantage needed to score PSF or Datapool in the traditional way. Note that Imp is a bigger threat than MO because of this - Imp is good for the Runner not because they're taking a card away from me, but because that card didn't take any of his or her money away.

Edit: All of that said, this really is a pretty low economy deck. It doesn't feel as financially claustrophobic as Jinteki to me, but just about any HB or Weyland deck is going to make this one look embarrassingly broke. It's one of the principle reasons you CAN have too much tracing in an NBN deck - if you do, Shapers will walk all over you.

2) Like you point out here, a little willingness to bend the deck strategy to score PSF/Datapool helps a lot with this problem Much of this hopefully goes away when Project Beale becomes available.

3) This actually is a positive thing for this deck, as counter-intuitive as that seems. Having the ICE tower be a nuisance, but not impregnable, helps keep the Runner confused about my motivations for sticking a card in it, since s/he knows that its assailable if s/he is willing to spend the cost in clicks, credits, and special abilities (Femme, Inside Job, etc.) It's true that the ICE won't stop a Runner from breaking into a central once per turn too, but you don't need to stop them from breaking in once per turn, you need to stop them from ending you in a single turn by wiping your entire HQ or half your R&D. That does mean the one-run Noise deck is more of a nuisance, but let's not kid ourselves - even HB and Weyland isn't keeping the Runner out of a tower if they only need to break in once. If Noise shows no willingness to run anything early, this deck just takes advantage of that by rezzing SanSan sooner rather than later with all the money it's not spending on rezzing ICE.

Now can this cause you problems if the Runner soft-locks R&D by hitting it once per turn? It could; that's probably one of the more effective ways to play against it. You can fortunately counter this by drawing more cards yourself. If someone was using this strategy against me, I would put all my drip cards in play undefended; then unless spending their whole turn safely running R&D started paying off relatively quickly, I'll amass a pretty significant credit advantage and can afford to spend my turn drawing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
szymkodf wrote:
Wondering what your thoughts are on False Lead here? I've had good success with Data Raven/SE in Weyland with it, wondering if you'd have the same synergy with PSF here or if you've tested it. If I had to include it I guess it'd be lose 1 Datapool, add 3 False Lead, and drop 2 non-agendas which you may not be willing to do.


I'm not sure, actually. I'm inclined to say because of the wonky ruling on the card that False Lead can only make the Runner lose two clicks and not one, I'll probably never play the card. That said, having False Lead scored does make Data Raven a lot more threatening, so maybe it's worth testing out anyway.

While I think False Lead would still be strictly better if it could take 1 or 2 clicks, the 2-clicks-only ruling does add an additional burden to the Runner's ability to play without mistakes, which is a benefit that's hard to quantify but easy to underestimate. In fact, I play a game called "Quarto" which I have never lost using one very simple strategy - make the board state as complicated as possible, as fast as possible, and rely on my superior ability to keep track of the board state to not make a mistake. Relying on a strategy like this to win in a tournament setting would be foolish, but relying on it in all your other games is surprisingly effective! I would see that as one of the main benefits of running False Lead in my deck: making the board state more complicated for the Runner.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jensen
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lluluien wrote:
That does mean the one-run Noise deck is more of a nuisance, but let's not kid ourselves - even HB and Weyland isn't keeping the Runner out of a tower if they only need to break in once. If Noise shows no willingness to run anything early, this deck just takes advantage of that by rezzing SanSan sooner rather than later with all the money it's not spending on rezzing ICE.


Right on. I like the deck a lot and I think recognizing the weaknesses helps the Corp player grasp the concept better.

One thing I wanted to add is that NBN ICE is some of the best most cost effective. Data Raven even if broken is very costly for the Runner with the 2c/click Tag Removal. Also, any one not running link really suffers from TMI - call me crazy, but spending three to get the Runner to derez my TMI for 5 is okay with me.

Sincerely, great deck design. Edge of World works because AsPP is 'dare I say' the best 3/2 agenda in the game. I'll have to play this... I really do think PSF and RStrc Data Pool will be glad to be gone once NBN is complete.

PS - I intended to write more after the post, but was called into a meeting and had to end it where I could.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Finkle
msg tools
I've got a HB variation of this deck. I like it quite a bit. HB gives you 6 3:2 agendas, which NBN does not have until they get Future Proof. Biotic Labor is like a SanSan that doesn't have to sit out. ASH and CorpShooter are amazing upgrades that can bluff as agendas and really ruin the runner's day. Their passive is also a lot more useful, providing an additional credit basically every turn. Edge of World is less scary than it is in your build (and Snare! is absent), but it is still threatening due to the omnipresent threat of brain damage from HB's Bioroids, combined with the fact that ABT makes a 4-5 Ice remote a real possibility. Sometimes people will sink a turn and a brain damage into getting past Janus, or run into an Ichi with only enough turn left to negate the dangerous program trashing. Little bits of brain damage add up, which leads to a deadly EoW hit.

The biggest problem I've found with it is that I tend to get carried away with the EoW plan, and sink more ice into a remote that they aren't even bothering to run anyways because it's already 4 deep with two Tollbooths and a Janus, and instead they just hammer R&D until I lose. Snare! might actually help quite a bit, but the problem would be figuring out what to cut. Primarily my influence goes to Ice, I believe my breakdown is currently:
3 Ice Wall (***)
2 Wall of Thorns (**)
3 Tollbooth (******)
2 Edge of World (***)

I could cut the walls for the less-useful but still acceptable Wall of Static and Heimdall, but that only frees me enough influence for 2 Snares unless I also trim a Tollbooth, which I am loathe to do as there is not another good Codegate option available. I suppose a singleton Hourglass wouldn't kill me.

The other problem would be finding room in the deck, as I'd have to replace Ice with Ice, necessitating cuts in my non-ice, non-agenda cards. Since I'm also looking for a card to cut so I can replace Mandatory Upgrades with 2x False Lead, that probably means losing my Ash and Shooters.

Alternately, I could give up on the EoW plan in favor of Snare! for deck protection and a trap that's still pretty fatal if you've been running brain damaged, and then I'd only need to cut 2 influence worth of other cards (likely walls) and 2 deck slots to fit the snares in.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm at the same time happy and sad about this thread, happy because people are finally discussing and understanding that thing we've been talking about for so long about Jinteki traps being the best out of Jinteki, about how to build a porous tower to keep the runner guessing about traps or not, and about how Pop-up Window is THE economy card in NBN if played right.

I'm sad because all my secrets are out in the wild now

Another trick with this deck? Install a San San behind a Tower. Then install an Edge of world. Let it site for a while. No bite? Look frustrated. Click to draw cards, then run out of options and install another upgrade. And TRASH THE PREVIOUS UPGRADE WHILE YOU'RE DOING IT. That really screws with the runner

This same kind of entrapment works just as well if not better in HB with their superior economy and not one but TWO 3/2 agendas. After you score one or two of them the runner will start to panic. AND you get to bluff secretary/mandatory by dropiing it and advancing it 3 times the next. It doesn't always work, but when it does it's beautiful. You really gotta read the situation and the runner!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Tuism wrote:
I'm at the same time happy and sad about this thread, happy because people are finally discussing and understanding that thing we've been talking about for so long about Jinteki traps being the best out of Jinteki, about how to build a porous tower to keep the runner guessing about traps or not, and about how Pop-up Window is THE economy card in NBN if played right.

I'm sad because all my secrets are out in the wild now

Another trick with this deck? Install a San San behind a Tower. Then install an Edge of world. Let it site for a while. No bite? Look frustrated. Click to draw cards, then run out of options and install another upgrade. And TRASH THE PREVIOUS UPGRADE WHILE YOU'RE DOING IT. That really screws with the runner

This same kind of entrapment works just as well if not better in HB with their superior economy and not one but TWO 3/2 agendas. After you score one or two of them the runner will start to panic. AND you get to bluff secretary/mandatory by dropiing it and advancing it 3 times the next. It doesn't always work, but when it does it's beautiful. You really gotta read the situation and the runner!


Sorry Tu I figured after spending several weeks referring to this undefeated deck and being asked several questions about NBN play, I'd eventually have to tell everyone how I did it or no one would believe me anymore

Thanks to everyone that's been participating in the discussion; I've had as much fun with this the past few days as I do playing the game! I'm glad everyone seems to like the deck idea - it's always a danger when posting something like this on the Internet that there's someone that will come poo all over the idea and attribute its success to something like "your opponents just don't know what they're doing". That would've been a bummer since I had so much fun putting the deck together and finally writing up the strategy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jensen
United States
League City
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tuism wrote:
that thing we've been talking about for so long about Jinteki traps being the best out of Jinteki, about how to build a porous tower to keep the runner guessing about traps or not, and about how Pop-up Window is THE economy card in NBN if played right.

I'm sad because all my secrets are out in the wild now


I don't think any one ever disagreed that Jinteki traps are more useful out of Jinteki. =)

I'm a little sad at the post myself. ... I was trying to make Traps work with SanSan and for the life of me I couldn't make sense of how to use Adv Counters that I'd use on the Agg Secretary or Junebug. Incomes Edge of World - I completely missed that one! Ugh. A little disappointed in myself, but meh - that's what group think is all about.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Tu
South Africa
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
notyetsuperman wrote:
Tuism wrote:
that thing we've been talking about for so long about Jinteki traps being the best out of Jinteki, about how to build a porous tower to keep the runner guessing about traps or not, and about how Pop-up Window is THE economy card in NBN if played right.

I'm sad because all my secrets are out in the wild now


I don't think any one ever disagreed that Jinteki traps are more useful out of Jinteki. =)

I'm a little sad at the post myself. ... I was trying to make Traps work with SanSan and for the life of me I couldn't make sense of how to use Adv Counters that I'd use on the Agg Secretary or Junebug. Incomes Edge of World - I completely missed that one! Ugh. A little disappointed in myself, but meh - that's what group think is all about.


After Ronin hits, it'll be time to do decks with 4/5 cards all 3 advanced on the table Exposes will be NECESSARY soon, then so will Zaibatsu
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
notyetsuperman wrote:
lluluien wrote:
That does mean the one-run Noise deck is more of a nuisance, but let's not kid ourselves - even HB and Weyland isn't keeping the Runner out of a tower if they only need to break in once. If Noise shows no willingness to run anything early, this deck just takes advantage of that by rezzing SanSan sooner rather than later with all the money it's not spending on rezzing ICE.


Right on. I like the deck a lot and I think recognizing the weaknesses helps the Corp player grasp the concept better.

One thing I wanted to add is that NBN ICE is some of the best most cost effective. Data Raven even if broken is very costly for the Runner with the 2c/click Tag Removal. Also, any one not running link really suffers from TMI - call me crazy, but spending three to get the Runner to derez my TMI for 5 is okay with me.

Sincerely, great deck design. Edge of World works because AsPP is 'dare I say' the best 3/2 agenda in the game. I'll have to play this... I really do think PSF and RStrc Data Pool will be glad to be gone once NBN is complete.

PS - I intended to write more after the post, but was called into a meeting and had to end it where I could.




Thanks for the compliments to the deck; I appreciate it

I think you're right about understanding how to play to mitigate a deck's weaknesses in addition to playing to its strengths. If I had to pick out a few key weaknesses, I'd say Tinkering, Inside Job, and Test Run->Femme are the things that I feel I have to be most careful playing around. This turns around my own game back on me. Do they have a hidden way to blast past my early game ICE when I'm trying to score an early advantage? If I'm down 0-4 in this deck when midgame arrives, then R&D attack becomes a significantly worse problem, ESPECIALLY if the Runner is smart enough to avoid going all-in on the attack.

I feel like the game is young enough that a lot of Runners don't understand adapting to the tempo of the game they way a Corp player needs to, even though the same player might do this fine when they are playing a Corp deck! If it becomes a more well-established practice for Runners to take advantage of implied threat and not just ACTUAL threat to turn the Corp's game around on itself, this deck might suffer worst than most because its protection on remote servers is pretty weak (assuming you're using the Data Ravens on centrals). It's true that some of NBN's ICE is amazing, but testing seems to indicate to me that the amazing pieces aren't enough to effectively guard both remotes and centrals; I'm relying on deception to help protect the remote.

As an example of what I'm talking about, I played a Noise deck I've been trying to make work (link + Underworld Contact) against a Weyland deck that thought they had me dead-to-rights. I had a Crypsis brewing on Personal Workshop, and they used a Project Atlas counter to retrieve Priority Requisition. I spent my next turn spending all my credits so the Corp would know I was broke, then ran Archives on the last click to take 2 sucker tokens and put a Bad Publicity credit into Crypsis. He installed Priority Requisition as I thought he would, and on my turn, I Stimhacked and suicided Crypsis to get the 3 points, going on to win that game after starting down 0-4. When I suicided Crypsis, I took out an Oversighted Hadrian's Wall, and he never recovered.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Tuism wrote:
notyetsuperman wrote:
Tuism wrote:
that thing we've been talking about for so long about Jinteki traps being the best out of Jinteki, about how to build a porous tower to keep the runner guessing about traps or not, and about how Pop-up Window is THE economy card in NBN if played right.

I'm sad because all my secrets are out in the wild now


I don't think any one ever disagreed that Jinteki traps are more useful out of Jinteki. =)

I'm a little sad at the post myself. ... I was trying to make Traps work with SanSan and for the life of me I couldn't make sense of how to use Adv Counters that I'd use on the Agg Secretary or Junebug. Incomes Edge of World - I completely missed that one! Ugh. A little disappointed in myself, but meh - that's what group think is all about.


After Ronin hits, it'll be time to do decks with 4/5 cards all 3 advanced on the table Exposes will be NECESSARY soon, then so will Zaibatsu


Mark his words! I also believe this is a coming meta shift. The exact same concept of masquerading will apply to the deck Tuism is suggesting; we're just masquerading as a different class of cards, in this case!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lluluien
United States
Missouri
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
wildfire393 wrote:
I've got a HB variation of this deck. I like it quite a bit. HB gives you 6 3:2 agendas, which NBN does not have until they get Future Proof. Biotic Labor is like a SanSan that doesn't have to sit out. ASH and CorpShooter are amazing upgrades that can bluff as agendas and really ruin the runner's day. Their passive is also a lot more useful, providing an additional credit basically every turn. Edge of World is less scary than it is in your build (and Snare! is absent), but it is still threatening due to the omnipresent threat of brain damage from HB's Bioroids, combined with the fact that ABT makes a 4-5 Ice remote a real possibility. Sometimes people will sink a turn and a brain damage into getting past Janus, or run into an Ichi with only enough turn left to negate the dangerous program trashing. Little bits of brain damage add up, which leads to a deadly EoW hit.

The biggest problem I've found with it is that I tend to get carried away with the EoW plan, and sink more ice into a remote that they aren't even bothering to run anyways because it's already 4 deep with two Tollbooths and a Janus, and instead they just hammer R&D until I lose. Snare! might actually help quite a bit, but the problem would be figuring out what to cut. Primarily my influence goes to Ice, I believe my breakdown is currently:
3 Ice Wall (***)
2 Wall of Thorns (**)
3 Tollbooth (******)
2 Edge of World (***)

I could cut the walls for the less-useful but still acceptable Wall of Static and Heimdall, but that only frees me enough influence for 2 Snares unless I also trim a Tollbooth, which I am loathe to do as there is not another good Codegate option available. I suppose a singleton Hourglass wouldn't kill me.

The other problem would be finding room in the deck, as I'd have to replace Ice with Ice, necessitating cuts in my non-ice, non-agenda cards. Since I'm also looking for a card to cut so I can replace Mandatory Upgrades with 2x False Lead, that probably means losing my Ash and Shooters.

Alternately, I could give up on the EoW plan in favor of Snare! for deck protection and a trap that's still pretty fatal if you've been running brain damaged, and then I'd only need to cut 2 influence worth of other cards (likely walls) and 2 deck slots to fit the snares in.


I agree with all your analysis here, and I think the influence problems you point out is exactly what I wouldn't like about trying to build this deck. However as I said in an earlier post, if you ever get access to an unadvanceable trap that hurts the runner in ways other than hand damage, so you don't have to try to support that as an alternate win condition, then this HB version is going to be FUUUUUUUUUUN
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
[1]  Prev «  1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5  Next »  [45] | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.