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Subject: Geek Mod... Appeals suggestion/brainstorm. rss

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Burke Glover
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Well, I'm checking out the new Geek Mod history utility, and for the most part, things seem to be gravy. However, there are some cases where the arbitrary nature of the community rears its head. In these cases, it would be nice to have a stop-gap measure like an appeals system to make sure good stuff doesn't fall through the cracks or bad stuff that somehow got approved can be re-examined. For example...

Why was this approved
http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic109402.jpg

while this wasn't?
http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic110147.jpg

Both are pictures that should've been rotated, both should have been rejected, but one got approved.


On the other hand you have pictures that are arbitrarily rejected.

Why was this rejected?
http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic109693.jpg

The guidelines specifically allow for modified components, and this is a good shot of an expertly modified component. Don't see what the trouble is.

I'm not sure how to properly implement this idea. Maybe a link on Mod History where you've voted against the grain to send the picture in question back up for voting. Any other ideas?

nuclear
 
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Jae
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quite frankly, I think they should open up for more votes.
I've only been allowed to vote on three pics since the inception.
I honestly feel left out on this and would like to have a more participatory role in assisting with content.

I do feel a great deal of content is being rubber stamped and it is possible that some content is getting "ganged" out of being on the site.
 
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Scott Alden
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I've been looking at the results for the past few days, and I believe it's running at about 90% accuracy. It's also rejecting way more images than we ever did based on 'glare', bad crops, misrotations, etc... I will see about tweaking the voting mechanism to allow for more input. I didn't realize how popular an activity this was going to be.

Also, one thing to remember is the images never stop coming. When will you tire of moderating images.... hmmmmmmmm?
 
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Scott Alden
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HBGlover wrote:


On the other hand you have pictures that are arbitrarily rejected.

Why was this rejected?
http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic109693.jpg

The guidelines specifically allow for modified components, and this is a good shot of an expertly modified component. Don't see what the trouble is.

I'm not sure how to properly implement this idea. Maybe a link on Mod History where you've voted against the grain to send the picture in question back up for voting. Any other ideas?

nuclear


Because it is just a different angle of

 
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Walter Sandsquish
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HBGlover wrote:
there are some cases where the arbitrary nature of the community rears its head. In these cases, it would be nice to have a stop-gap measure like an appeals system to make sure good stuff doesn't fall through the cracks or bad stuff that somehow got approved can be re-examined. [...] Maybe a link on Mod History where you've voted against the grain to send the picture in question back up for voting. Any other ideas?

Well, they could implement a way for people to send weird results to the administrators for review.

But I'm not sure a voting system can really be fixed for a task like the one we're using it for. Voting or poll-taking can work well for some things, but I've never seen them handle gatekeeping or decision-making tasks very well.

Having gotten that off my chest, I've noticed a couple of things in the threads about the new system, aside from voting, that bother me.

(Stay with me for a minute.)

One notorious problem with group decision-making is "group think." This happens when people get tired of, or become afraid to, disagree with each other and stop thinking about the subject at hand and start trying to predict what most of the other people involved will say about the subject. Then, in order to avoid disagreement, they say whatever they think most people will say, instead of what they really think.

I've seen many situations where the group decision ends up being something that, we later learned, no one thought was a good idea. Most of us just thought, at the time, that everyone else would say that it was.

Often, it gets even worse than this, and politics rears its head or people start spending their time figuring out ways to subvert the system. (But I don't think that's happened yet here.)

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but the new system appears to award GeekCents only to voters who agree with most of the other voters on a photo. It also sounds like Geek Mods are warned that they may lose the ability to vote if they don't vote the way most of the other Mods are voting.

This sounds like it would make the group-think problem even worse, rather than counteract it.

My first suggestion would be to get rid of those two aspects of the system. My second suggestion would be to reconsider putting database content up for vote.
 
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Burke Glover
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I'm not so sure the groupthink is that big a deal. I have to admit, the first picture I rejected, there was some trepidation on my part. I thought, "It's another one of those damn cat-in-gamebox pictures. But it seems like everyone LOVES those! Hell with it, I'm being honest. Vote to reject." Lo and behold, the picture was rejected. The same thing happened with a couple Carcasonne meeple dioramas. I think most of us are really already on the same page to begin with. As Aldie said, we've got a 90% sucess rate, with more chaff being thrown out than ever before. Can't be all bad.

nuclear
 
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Mark Goadrich
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This image seems to have slipped in through the cracks of GeekModding, it's way less than the 320x200 pixels. Maybe there's a way to reject these automatically by checking the picture dimensions?

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/108903
 
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Walter Sandsquish
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HBGlover wrote:
I'm not so sure the groupthink is that big a deal.

Oops. Did I get carried away again? Sorry, I've seen some pretty absurd political and group-think situations the last few years. I probably need a vacation.

You're right, which photos end up in the database isn't that big a deal. However, I do suspect that, over time, the photos that make it into the database are going to start looking more and more like each other.
 
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T. Rosen
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I was surprised to find when viewing my GeekMod History that almost everything I'd voted to reject was actually approved in the end. I only got to participate in voting on about 40 images before the queue ran out, and the well has been dry every time I've checked back, and out of those, I voted to reject about 10 images, 8 of which were actually approved (just about all of the 30 images I voted to accept were accepted). If I were a rational actor, I suppose I might learn from that to accept many more images, in order to maximize my earnings and to avoid being banned from moderating, but I'm going to try not to be swayed by either of these consequences, and instead stick to my own personal inclinations. Thoughts?
 
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Walter Sandsquish
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Thommy8 wrote:
If I were a rational actor, I suppose I might learn from that to accept many more images, in order to maximize my earnings and to avoid being banned from moderating, but I'm going to try not to be swayed by either of these consequences, and instead stick to my own personal inclinations. Thoughts?

I think that's the way voting and poll-taking are supposed to work.

But I think someone should point out (and it looks like it's going to be me) that "majority of honest opinions" isn't the same thing as "a good decision." For deciding which pictures are displayed at BoardGameGeek, this may not matter much, but will it matter if we vote on which reviews BoardGameGeeks will be able to read here?
 
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Marshall P.
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My situation breaks down like this: I've voted on 97 pictures.

MY VOTE BGG VOTE NUMBER OF VOTES
Approved Approved 60
Approved Declined 5
Declined Approved 16
Declined Declined 16


So I've approved 65 pictures or 67%. I've declined 33%

I've aggreed with the BGG outcome 76 times or 78%.

It looks like I decline slightly more pictures than the BGG average but overall I'm pretty happy with the breakdown.
 
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Scott Alden
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Trust your feelings and moderate based on your opinion.
 
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Pat T
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It is funny you bring up this pic.

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic109693.jpg

I voted to approve this one, only to discover that it was rejected. I couldn't figure out why, until I realized that it was rejected because some an other angle of it was better. BTW, I do now agree with the rejection.

The problem for me, was that the other angle pic was not available for me to view as it must have just been approved, but not yet in the 'other pics for this game' list.

Oh well, on the whole my error rate has not been too bad.

Correct, ie same as bgg: 59
incorrect, ie different that bgg: 8
 
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Alfred
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mdp4828 wrote:
My situation breaks down like this: I've voted on 97 pictures.

MY VOTE BGG VOTE NUMBER OF VOTES
Approved Approved 60
Approved Declined 5
Declined Approved 16
Declined Declined 16



Did you manually keep count or is there a way to generate these stats?
 
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oskari
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It would be very nice to get these stats on the history page.

At first, I was worried that I'll soon get banned for declining too often but after browsing my history it seems that my votes are pretty consistent with the final results.
 
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Marshall P.
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Der Das wrote:

Did you manually keep count or is there a way to generate these stats?


I went to Utilities=>Geekmod=>History to get the stats.
 
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Alfred
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mdp4828 wrote:
Der Das wrote:

Did you manually keep count or is there a way to generate these stats?


I went to Utilities=>Geekmod=>History to get the stats.


Thanks for posting, it will alert a few people to the new option. I just found it by chance in the menu before coming to the forum.

Anyway, my question has now become a request. meeple
 
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Burke Glover
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Well this afternoon I've discovered another unfortunate case. I voted to decline this picture:

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic112050.jpg

I checked my history and within a minute the picture was shown to be declined. However, within another minute, this picture appeared in the que...

http://files.boardgamegeek.com/bggimages/pic112053.jpg

The same blurry picture! I declined it again but this time it got accepted! I'm not certain if this is BGG error or just a cynical user resubmitting his crap because he knows it'll eventually get through. Maybe my idea of allowing re-votes was not such a good one...

nuclear
 
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Burke Glover
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Hey! It changed! Wild. I guess it updates history as the votes are coming in...

nuclear
 
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Ray
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How about allowing us to upload pictures marked as replacements for pictures already there that we uploaded (and let folks vote on it.) I have some stinkers that I wouldn't mind resubmitting better pictures for (of course no GG award on the resubmitters part).
 
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