Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: Daredevil - update question. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Joseph Woodworth
Japan
flag msg tools
Does using the daredevil talent cause stress? (most likely certainly)

updated question below. (I'll copy this question below the talk about the first question)

What happens when Tycho takes the daredevil action when he is stressed? (probably nothing)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Daredevil
ravncat wrote:
Does using the daredevil talent cause stress?

Yes, all red maneuvers cause stress.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Woodworth
Japan
flag msg tools
Re: Daredevil
iNano78 wrote:
ravncat wrote:
Does using the daredevil talent cause stress?

Yes, all red maneuvers cause stress.


That's the rule I can't find anywhere.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jim Emerick
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Re: Daredevil
Pg 7:

"Check pilot Stress: If the ship just executed a red maneuver, place one stress token near the ship. If the ship just executed a green maneuver, remove one stress token from the ship (if any) and return the token to the miscellaneous token supply (see “Stress” on page 17)."

Jim
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Woodworth
Japan
flag msg tools
Re: Daredevil
Doesn't that happen before the action step?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Re: Daredevil
Also, see pg 17:
X-wing Rules wrote:

Stress
There are several factors that can cause pilots stress, such as executing difficult (red) maneuvers (see Step 4 on page 7). While a ship has at least one stress token, it cannot execute red maneuvers or perform any action (even free actions).


And pg 28:
X-wing Rules wrote:

When a ship executes a red maneuver, place one stress token near it. While the ship has at least one stress token, it cannot execute red maneuvers or perform any actions (not even free actions).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Woodworth
Japan
flag msg tools
Re: Daredevil
Thanks!

I figured it was intended for there to be stress - but I couldn't find the above - I also didn't want to start the post with my whole thought process - to see if someone else would pick up on it - or quote something that breaks it up clearly - like you did with the pg 28 reference


I don't think what you have on page 17 is as relevant as what is on page 28 quick reference. It's interesting that the quick reference seems to suggest that you get one for executing a red maneuver in a set way - but the rules on page 7 don't.

I suspect that steps 2-5 must be performed whenever you have to execute a maneuver - but it's not stated.


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Woodworth
Japan
flag msg tools
What happens when a stressed Tycho takes the daredevil action?

Tycho Celchu - you may take actions even when stressed

Daredevil - Action: perform a red 1 speed turn.


As you can see from the comments above - you can't execute red maneuvers when you are stressed.

But, more importantly, in the rules - we also have a wacky situation of being able to place a red maneuver face down (you're not supposed to maybe? - the penalty for "revealing a red maneuver when stressed" is that the opponent may choose a new maneuver for you.

In Tycho's case - we have maybe four outcomes, but only two of which seem "intended" - Nothing prevents Tycho from taking the daredevil action, before the rules come into play saying he can't actually perform the maneuver.

1: Tycho chooses daredevil action - and then nothing happens his ship stays where it is and he has wasted his action

2: The wording of perform a turn overrides the general book rules that say you can't and he gets to take his turn anyway. (Because he can take the action when stressed , and the action said to take a maneuver)

3: Like #2 Tycho can take the action, but taking the action means the opponent gets to choose a new maneuver for Tycho.

4: Tycho just cannot choose this action.

---
I think 1 and 4 are most likely - The problem I have with #3 is that the rules state reveal a red maneuver - that doesn't happen in this situation - and we already have other effects that assign a manuever without "revelaing" (the ion canon effect). Because there is no "revealed" maneuver, and the key word reveal is always used specifically with the hidden maneuver dial - the opponent should be unable to choose a new maneuver in it's place.

The only problem with #2 - is that it doesn't seem intended. Usually specific instances override the rules, is this situation ok with the rules?, because then Daredevil got pretty good on our Mr Tycho.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jaster Mereel
United States
St. Louis
MO
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Tycho would still be able to take the turn.

The way I interpret the Daredevil card comes down to the very first word, Action.Boost is also an action and it lets you perform a maneuver as well. Think of Daredevil as a sharp boost.

Edit: After reading the posts below, I have changed my mind & I was wrong. I was a bit too hasty in replying without giving it proper thought.

I now agree that it should be number one, a wasted action.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Correct me if I'm wrong but my interpretation is that a stressed Tycho can take the Daredevil action but it won't do anything because he is unable to perform a red maneuver while stressed.

By the way, the Boost card specifically states that performing a Boost is not a maneuver. However, Daredevil tells you to take a red maneuver, which is quite different.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Creed Buhallin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Copying response from the FFG forum:

I believe #1 is the correct answer, mostly by looking at the others:

#2: Just because the action says to do it does not mean it overrides anything that would prevent the ship from completing the action. Can't beats can. So for instance, if you declare Expert Handling as your action but cannot barrel roll (perhaps because of position) you don't get to barrel roll anyway.

#3: There is nothing being revealed, and no dial involved, so the rule about revealing a red maneuver doesn't apply.

#4: There's really nothing to imply that you're prohibited from declaring an action which you cannot complete.

The last isn't explicitly stated in the rules, but does have some solid precedent. The FAQ entry for Expert Handling covers how you resolve the card if you can't barrel roll - the rest of the effect doesn't occur. It says nothing about Expert Handling being forbidden because you can't barrel roll, which IMHO implies pretty strongly that you can declare the Expert Handling action even if you can't finish it.

So: Nothing stopping you from declaring it, but the rule preventing a stressed ship from executing red maneuvers stops it from taking the maneuver. That makes it #1.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert M.
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
ravncat wrote:
What happens when a stressed Tycho takes the daredevil action?

The rules interaction here is pretty clear, actually, and I agree with the posters above. The relevant rules text is the page 17 bit quoted above by iNano; Tycho's rules text overrides the portion of this rule that refers to taking actions, but he still cannot execute a red maneuver while stressed. Therefore only Tycho can even choose the Daredevil action while stressed, but even Tycho can't actually execute the maneuver.

***

But I've been thinking about it, and ravncat's original question actually doesn't have a clear answer--which would mean, as far as I know, the entire community has been interpreting Daredevil wrong for months. (It seems fairly clear that Daredevil ought to cause stress, because otherwise calling it a "red maneuver" is meaningless to every pilot except Tycho. I'm not arguing, here, that the designers intended anything other than for Daredevil to cause stress.)

Everyone has been using Daredevil as if it said "Execute a 1 turn maneuver, and then receive 1 stress token." But what it actually does is allow you to execute a red maneuver outside the "Execute Maneuver" step of the activation phase. But since the "Perform Action" step--when pilots would normally execute Daredevil--occurs after the "Check Pilot Stress" step, it's counterintuitive but possibly correct to conclude that Daredevil has no opportunity to cause stress to any pilot.

What am I missing, here? Because if I'm right (or, rather, if ravncat's original thought is right), this definitely needs an FFG answer, and probably some errata.

EDIT: The p28 rule in the quick reference doesn't apply. The recent FFG ruling on Night Beast makes clear that the quick reference is just an summary of the rulebook; if it were binding, then executing a green maneuver would (immediately) remove stress, and Night Beast wouldn't be denied his free Focus action when he starts his turn stressed but executes a green maneuver.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Creed Buhallin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
This is one of the areas where the way they wrote the rules makes it uglier than it needs to be, but here's how I read it:

"Executing a maneuver" actually covers steps 2-5 of the Activation Phase. If we read it with perfect strictness and read it as only being Step 3, then the first thing the rules tell us to do is to hold a template that isn't on the table. By a similar token, if we don't process it through Step 5, the rules literally tell us to leave the maneuver template on the table. So we need to includes 2 and 5, and that catches 4.

Sadly, this is a pretty tricksy reading and there's nothing that actually says this directly, just like we don't have anything that actually defines what an attack is. But I think this is a reasonable interpretation that actually fits the rules. On top of that, even I wouldn't be against throwing a little intent into the blender on this one - as Robert says, if there is no stress phase outside of the standard activation, the writing Daredevil as a red maneuver does nothing.

I've actually got a blog post percolating on this particular phenomenon of the style the rules are written in that causes issues like this, I just haven't locked it down exactly.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Mountains. Molehills.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert M.
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Buhallin wrote:
"Executing a maneuver" actually covers steps 2-5 of the Activation Phase.

That makes the programmer in me uncomfortable: "execute a maneuver" therefore points to both a set of operations and one of the operations performed as part of that set. Perhaps more to the point, it also contradicts the recent ruling on Night Beast, which hinges on the narrow interpretation of "execute a maneuver", rather than the steps-2-through-5 interpretation.

Neither of those things means you're wrong, of course, and as I said it's evident (in this case!) that applying the narrow reading to Daredevil makes it all but irrelevant that it's a red maneuver.

But it drives me nuts that they'd be so sloppy, and I'd prefer to see a FAQ entry--or, even better, a revision to the rulebook that actually explains what the hell they mean by a term as fundamental as "execute a maneuver".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Creed Buhallin
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I'm not disagreeing, and I don't love it either.

I don't think it necessarily contradicts the Night Beast ruling, though, because "Execute Maneuver" is overloaded. It means the full process of executing a maneuver (the 2-5 I mention) but it's also the name of the specific Step 3 in the process. Overloading the name like that is ugly and bad, but it's also not the first time FFG has done it.

It's also possible that Step 4 is intimately tied to Step 3, so that you can't do one without the other. I think there's actually a decent case to be made for this one, that the Check Stress step is not just part of the standard action phase flow, but can be triggered independently. The wording for the stress phase is pretty standard trigger text - "If the ship just executed a red maneuver..."

The more I look at that, the more I think I'm more comfortable with that reading than the previous. It's certainly not well written by any means, but it's what we've got.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Woodworth
Japan
flag msg tools
First - as to Mountains out of molehills - I disagree, I've got no attachment to any specific ruling, just a small curiosity in the rules - I'd say this is a molehill out of a molehill (at least that's how I see it)



The reasons I brought up the topic, in the way I did, and added the second question - was because, it seemed to me - without the explicit rules that you perform steps 2-5 when executing a maneuver (or without a stress coming from daredevil)- what is the purpose of calling the maneuver a red maneuver.

Especially when a ship with stress can't perform one - and ships with stress can't take the action to perform the maneuver anyway.

So, from a design standpoint - why is it worded like this? What does it do? It seems to be sole-ly to prevent tycho from continually flying in a very tight circle, facing both ways each round (in the same way that the rules already prevent any ship from pulling a K-turn every round.) (Note however, you can do this with an X-wing! (r2 + daredevil) provided the ruling is that r2 modifies daredevil into green) My guess is that the designers would come out against this - as I suspect, they do not intend for ships to be capable of performing a 180, every round, especially without stress. (it seems weird that any of the elite talent x-wings can do this but Tycho can't)

The only other thing it doesn't work at all with is push the limit - if there are ever going to be pilots with dual elite talent slots. (daredevil has to go before PTL - and it gives stress so you can't take an action with PTL)

The second question was probing if there's a reason it's red - because maybe the opponent would choose a maneuver for you if you were stressed, but it's clear that's a no go.

P.S. - also note that daredevil says perform and not execute - probably doesn't mean anything, but hey, i'll throw it out there.

P.P.S. - I haven't put any of these questions into the rules submission section over at FFG.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.