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Subject: Kickstarter project is bleeding money and fast rss

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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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Wonder why this is? I chose to remove my pledge as my wife and I are saving our play budgets for our honeymoon to Italy and a cruise around the Med. But take a look at these stats:


They have taken some massive hits, 2 over a thousand, 2 over $500 plus the little foxes nibbling.

Why is this? Im just curious, I have no affiliation with the project any longer, I still plan on getting it when it comes out, it'll just be after aforementioned honeymoon.
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Stacey Hager
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The whole Up Front debacle couldn't be helping.
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When this was first announced I thought about getting on board with it as the mechanics look interesting. But I waited as I could really care less about the minis aspect of the game and their stretch goals which revolved around the minis. I don't know if this hurt things any but for me it's like it couldn't decide whether to be a block game or a minis game, and the minis just confused the matter. As such, I've decided to just wait and get a retail copy if/when it gets released. I don't think the pledge amount will fall back below their funding level though so we're likely to see the game. I couldn't say if they have any tie-in issues with what's going on with Up Front. Doubtful though.
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Andrew S. Fischer
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So 16 weenies backed out. Big effin' deal.
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Bill Abner
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Hi Jonathan,

It's a good question. This is our 4th Kickstarter campaign. We ran successful campaigns for Road to Enlightenment, The New Science and Tomorrow. All of them were learning experiences and War Stories is no different.

While I haven't been as involved directly with War Stories as our other games (I am currently finishing up Tomorrow's development, which is about to go to the printers and I can't wait to show it to people), I am directly involved in the day to day operations of the company. So when it's all said and done, the blame falls to me as much as anyone.

Still, people backing out of a campaign is quite common. It happens all the time. Our issue now is that we aren't getting new backers.

I think, end of the day, we screwed up in some key areas with this campaign.

The minis were an area of confusion for a lot of backers. Direct email to my inbox said as much. While the minis are gorgeous and look great on the maps, the confusion over whether it was a block game or a minis game was as clear as mud and that's our fault. It also wasn't clear how they actually worked in the game which is again on us. In retrospect, we shouldn't have pushed the minis the way we did.

As others have said, our stretch goals were not what they needed to be -- relating only to minis backers was not a good move on our part. I think we sort of fell in love with the minis and it altered our outlook of the campaign.

I think we may have launched the campaign a bit too soon -- our updates were not as fluid as our other games. (Take a look at Tomorrow's updates by comparison as well as New Science.) There were some circumstances that prevented us from doing as many updates as we wanted that were out of our control, but it is what it is.

All of that said, while the campaign has not pulled in the funds we thought it might, we're all extremely confident that War Stories is going to be a great, great game. Kickstarter "failure" or not, we reached our goal which allows us to publish the game and when it ships I think gamers are going to have a hell of a good time with it. It really is a lot of fun.

And that's why we're in this to begin with.

--bill
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Christopher O
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Sorry if this has been asked before, but is the intent to publish Liberty Roads concurrently with Red Storm, or will one (presumably Liberty Roads) follow the other (Red Storm)?

I've pledged for four copies of Liberty roads as I have little interest in another East Front tactical title (while definitely not begrudging people the right to want Red Storm - more power to you - it's just not my cup of tea).
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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asfhgwt wrote:
So 16 weenies backed out. Big effin' deal.


Only 16 people yes, but the amount of money they took with them is what piqued my curiosity. I know I was $150 of one of those batches. So Im one of the 16 weenies! laugh

Bill, makes sense, I was fired up about this and still am, if we hadnt decided to put our money back for the honeymoon Id still be on board. As I said I still plan on buying it in November or when it hits shelves. I dont think its a failure unless it doesnt get funded, but thats just me.
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Bill Abner
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Kozure wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked before, but is the intent to publish Liberty Roads concurrently with Red Storm, or will one (presumably Liberty Roads) follow the other (Red Storm)?

I've pledged for four copies of Liberty roads as I have little interest in another East Front tactical title (while definitely not begrudging people the right to want Red Storm - more power to you - it's just not my cup of tea).


Hi Christopher,

Liberty Road will follow Red Storm -- they should be a few months apart.

--bill
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Quote:
I chose to remove my pledge as my wife and I are saving our play budgets for our honeymoon to Italy and a cruise around the Med


Sorry to hijack the thread but I have taken this cruise twice with my family and I cannot recommend it enough, enjoy
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I think Bill summed things up rather well. I've hung on as I am VERY intrigued by the card resolution system, and I love the introduction of a light tactical block wargame. After following the developers blog prior to the Kickstarter, I knew that the focus was never ultimately on miniatures, and the World Tank minis (gorgeous though they are) clouded the underlying intent and mechanics of the game. People got so hung up on sourcing minis and whether the hex sizes were good for 1:144 scale that the project became mired in a push/pull over "Is it, or is it not about miniatures?".

The gameplay video, while cool, came out very late in the campaign, and the number of total updates to HYPE the player bases was small. Again, I'm not criticizing the project, only I recognize that there may have been certain factors, as mentioned by Bill, that caused some confusion.

More card artwork, more gameplay examples, and more emphasis on what the game IS (rather than optional chrome [ie miniatures]), would have helped. I think that most players who are dead set on incorporating third party novelties (minis, lasercut plastic markers, etc) will often take it upon themselves to stylize their game to taste. Had War Stories only advertised itself as the quick and fun block wargame it is, someone down the line would have gotten around to incorporating their own miniatures. This was just a mistaken case of not seeing the forest for the pretty prepainted resin trees. I wish Bill, Dirk, and Michael the best. The game system has a lot of potential.
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David J Schaffner
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I backed out today of an additional $60-worth of pledging for three sets of three randomly selected minis. I'll wait till after the campaign to buy the specific types of minis from CG (or elsewhere) if they still have them. I don't need randomly selected model types, and want better control of what I might consider for buying.

At this point, I wonder if the gameplay focus didn't strongly suggest that the need for model vehicles was lost when the game's orientation was put primarily on "infantry" action, and so blocks for playing was always going to be sufficient for this. In fact it was the only option for the infantry pieces anyway. Heck, chits would have been sufficient for infantry counters, and so why invest in model vehicles when the primary game is mostly meant for small unit infantry battles?







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Jeff Paul
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The game looks like a lot of fun. But the campaign has focused on the miniatures. None of the stretch goals (cool as the minis are) created the "must get it now" mentality that hyped kickstarter projects have.

I am glad it made its funding goal.

I look forward to seeing it in print.
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Ethan McKinney
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FlyXwire wrote:
At this point, I wonder if the gameplay focus didn't strongly suggest that the need for model vehicles was lost when the game's orientation was put primarily on "infantry" action, and so blocks for playing was always going to be sufficient for this. In fact it was the only option for the infantry pieces anyway. Heck, chits would have been sufficient for infantry counters, and so why invest in model vehicles when the primary game is mostly meant for small unit infantry battles?


Chits wouldn't do for infantry in place of blocks because only you can see the faces of your blocks--that's the big fog of war part. It wasn't clear to me how the vehicle miniatures were going to work if you had so much fog of war when you played with blocks. Was the whole thing going to be such a different experience?
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As mentioned above, the lack of updates, as well as lack of effective stretch goals hurt the campaign. You can definitely add the over-emphasis on the miniatures that made people think that the game was only good when playing with them rather than on it's own. The hexes being 35mm made the 1:144 tanks seem too large as the hulls overhang the edges. The game seems very unique, so I am hanging in there for both games. I might scale down from 1:285 to 1:600 miniatures depending on how the game looks with them on the board. I really like the quick-play aspects to it.

-Ski
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Kev.
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wabner wrote:
Kozure wrote:
Sorry if this has been asked before, but is the intent to publish Liberty Roads concurrently with Red Storm, or will one (presumably Liberty Roads) follow the other (Red Storm)?

I've pledged for four copies of Liberty roads as I have little interest in another East Front tactical title (while definitely not begrudging people the right to want Red Storm - more power to you - it's just not my cup of tea).


Hi Christopher,

Liberty Road will follow Red Storm -- they should be a few months apart.

--bill

The videos that explain the game are coming now.... a little late. I was and still an the fence. After 2 games of sargaents, I'm kind of fired up for minies.....I think. this looks cool, but i dont know your company nore the system. I'm also not sure what I 'really' need either.

Good luck with this one, it looks fab and I think it will play well.
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Jesse LeBreton
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Kickstarter funding I see is winding down all over the place in regards to board games at least. People have blown lots of money on them over the last two years, and in some cases games do not live up to the hype and the public has learned now. Take Zombicide. A million dollar campaign! I bought it on kickstarter. However, I don't find it all that interesting to play. It has rather hollow gameplay. And to boot had it just come to kickstarter today, I doubt it would top 150,000. It's success is entirely due to the early effect Kickstarter had on the initial run of games. Anyone remember the Alien Frontiers campaign? Very successful too, for its time, but paltry compared to Zombicide. Why? Because Kickstarter was a very new thing at that time and many were not using it yet. So AF came a bit to early to really rake in the big haul. On the other hand, Zombicide hit at the perfect time. Everybody was hot to get the next big game with the added stretch goals because even if they really didn't want the game they figured they could resell it to those that missed the campaign for a nice profit. Case in point, D-day Dice! So everybody just started buying kickstarter games because they were the deluxe model of the game. But now I feel people are getting burned out on the rat race to get the deluxe version of everything and just take a wait and see approach.

Another reason for a poor outcome on this campaign is simply due to the seasonal timing. A short time after Christmas and Winter heating bills really kill some people. Me for example. I would have bought into the $200 package for the great minis had it not been for my shortage of money right now. A lot gets spent at Christmas, then the heating bills really hit and you just can't get caught up until May or June. Ask the retailers this simple fact. They can tell you the slowest time of the year for them is January-March. Had this kickstarter campaign hit in the summer I would have been able to afford it.

And contrary to what the others have said, I really like the fact that this game can use minis and that the kickstarter was going to give us a good deal to grab a bunch. I honestly don't know what is so confusing about this design using both blocks and minis. And as I said above I don't think that theory of confusion is what hurt the money haul for this game. It's the Kickstarter burn out, and bad seasonal timing I think.
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Regardless of the stretch goals, you are still buying the base game. So if you are pulling out because you don't like the minis, I would question if you are really willing to support the designers and intent of the Kickstarter for games. Kinda like buying the Cracker Jack for the mystery prize!

I am in big as a backer, (I am also sticking with Up Front as well) since I don't really care about the stretch goals, as a supporter of the Road to Enlightenment (and despite the bad rules, Bill and the team have been SUPER supportive of their products!) they produce a superior product!

Note to Bill - PLEASE use a different distributor for your games than you did for RtE!

I agree with Kev - Keep up the good work!



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I agree with Jesse above. I wasn't confused over the "minis issue." I saw the word "blocks" in the Red Storm description and figured it out, despite my creeping senility. I've even complimented the designers for offering a non-minis lower-priced "base game" (unlike Sergeants, which I probably would have bought if not for its required uber-expensive miniatures).
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Heating bills???....really?
If you are worried about paying your heating bill you have no business looking at extras like boardgames. Just a lame excuse.

As for the trip around Italy...nobody cares about you and your wife's cruise.

The stupid things people bring up on gaming forums just kills me.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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scurvybuffdog wrote:
Heating bills???....really?
If you are worried about paying your heating bill you have no business looking at extras like boardgames. Just a lame excuse.

As for the trip around Italy...nobody cares about you and your wife's cruise.

The stupid things people bring up on gaming forums just kills me.

Think about it before you express your profound stupidity here. A low income person such as myself can afford to buy board games when it is the right time of year to do so. Trying to come up with the money right after the Christmas season is hard and heating bills do affect what I can afford to buy. I play board games first because I like them, and second because it really is one of the few pastimes that allows my money to go far. You can blow $40 taking a small family to see a movie, or you could use that money to buy a game that family and friends would enjoy for years. I think I'm spending my spare change in a very wise way. Lame excuse? Really, are you that hard up to make enemies. Someone please have a moderator ban this jerk.
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Lebatron wrote:
Kickstarter funding I see is winding down all over the place in regards to board games at least. People have blown lots of money on them over the last two years, and in some cases games do not live up to the hype and the public has learned now. Take Zombicide. A million dollar campaign! I bought it on kickstarter. However, I don't find it all that interesting to play. It has rather hollow gameplay. And to boot had it just come to kickstarter today, I doubt it would top 150,000. It's success is entirely due to the early effect Kickstarter had on the initial run of games. Anyone remember the Alien Frontiers campaign? Very successful too, for its time, but paltry compared to Zombicide. Why? Because Kickstarter was a very new thing at that time and many were not using it yet. So AF came a bit to early to really rake in the big haul. On the other hand, Zombicide hit at the perfect time. Everybody was hot to get the next big game with the added stretch goals because even if they really didn't want the game they figured they could resell it to those that missed the campaign for a nice profit. Case in point, D-day Dice! So everybody just started buying kickstarter games because they were the deluxe model of the game. But now I feel people are getting burned out on the rat race to get the deluxe version of everything and just take a wait and see approach.

Another reason for a poor outcome on this campaign is simply due to the seasonal timing. A short time after Christmas and Winter heating bills really kill some people. Me for example. I would have bought into the $200 package for the great minis had it not been for my shortage of money right now. A lot gets spent at Christmas, then the heating bills really hit and you just can't get caught up until May or June. Ask the retailers this simple fact. They can tell you the slowest time of the year for them is January-March. Had this kickstarter campaign hit in the summer I would have been able to afford it.

And contrary to what the others have said, I really like the fact that this game can use minis and that the kickstarter was going to give us a good deal to grab a bunch. I honestly don't know what is so confusing about this design using both blocks and minis. And as I said above I don't think that theory of confusion is what hurt the money haul for this game. It's the Kickstarter burn out, and bad seasonal timing I think.


I think you're way off base. Zombicide Season 2 went crazy and just ended.
 
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Lebatron wrote:
Kickstarter funding I see is winding down all over the place in regards to board games at least. People have blown lots of money on them over the last two years, and in some cases games do not live up to the hype and the public has learned now. Take Zombicide. A million dollar campaign! I bought it on kickstarter. However, I don't find it all that interesting to play. It has rather hollow gameplay. And to boot had it just come to kickstarter today, I doubt it would top 150,000. It's success is entirely due to the early effect Kickstarter had on the initial run of games. Anyone remember the Alien Frontiers campaign? Very successful too, for its time, but paltry compared to Zombicide. Why? Because Kickstarter was a very new thing at that time and many were not using it yet. So AF came a bit to early to really rake in the big haul. On the other hand, Zombicide hit at the perfect time. Everybody was hot to get the next big game with the added stretch goals because even if they really didn't want the game they figured they could resell it to those that missed the campaign for a nice profit. Case in point, D-day Dice! So everybody just started buying kickstarter games because they were the deluxe model of the game. But now I feel people are getting burned out on the rat race to get the deluxe version of everything and just take a wait and see approach.

Another reason for a poor outcome on this campaign is simply due to the seasonal timing. A short time after Christmas and Winter heating bills really kill some people. Me for example. I would have bought into the $200 package for the great minis had it not been for my shortage of money right now. A lot gets spent at Christmas, then the heating bills really hit and you just can't get caught up until May or June. Ask the retailers this simple fact. They can tell you the slowest time of the year for them is January-March. Had this kickstarter campaign hit in the summer I would have been able to afford it.

And contrary to what the others have said, I really like the fact that this game can use minis and that the kickstarter was going to give us a good deal to grab a bunch. I honestly don't know what is so confusing about this design using both blocks and minis. And as I said above I don't think that theory of confusion is what hurt the money haul for this game. It's the Kickstarter burn out, and bad seasonal timing I think.


As charles says =- i don't think this is true - Zombicide 2 launched at the worst time of the year, and has just finished - raising $2.2m - so it would seem to blow both your points out the water A) that once played zombicide isn't very good and B) don't launch in january as no one has any money - so i think it can work, trouble is a lot of projects just aren't that interesting (btw!! i'm not including war stories as i think this looks like an excellent game) or are too niche - the big kickstarter money only comes with cult games or ones appealing to a broad spectrum - war games are a pretty niche subject..
However - Hero's of normandie seems to be showing how to do a kickstarted wargame - they are providing loads of info - and slowly building some nice momentum, so unknown projects can succeed.. not sure about the new cthulu direction - but that brought in more backers - so hey - what do i know!
 
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StuDecay wrote:
Lebatron wrote:
Kickstarter funding I see is winding down all over the place in regards to board games at least. People have blown lots of money on them over the last two years, and in some cases games do not live up to the hype and the public has learned now. Take Zombicide. A million dollar campaign! I bought it on kickstarter. However, I don't find it all that interesting to play. It has rather hollow gameplay. And to boot had it just come to kickstarter today, I doubt it would top 150,000. It's success is entirely due to the early effect Kickstarter had on the initial run of games. Anyone remember the Alien Frontiers campaign? Very successful too, for its time, but paltry compared to Zombicide. Why? Because Kickstarter was a very new thing at that time and many were not using it yet. So AF came a bit to early to really rake in the big haul. On the other hand, Zombicide hit at the perfect time. Everybody was hot to get the next big game with the added stretch goals because even if they really didn't want the game they figured they could resell it to those that missed the campaign for a nice profit. Case in point, D-day Dice! So everybody just started buying kickstarter games because they were the deluxe model of the game. But now I feel people are getting burned out on the rat race to get the deluxe version of everything and just take a wait and see approach.

Another reason for a poor outcome on this campaign is simply due to the seasonal timing. A short time after Christmas and Winter heating bills really kill some people. Me for example. I would have bought into the $200 package for the great minis had it not been for my shortage of money right now. A lot gets spent at Christmas, then the heating bills really hit and you just can't get caught up until May or June. Ask the retailers this simple fact. They can tell you the slowest time of the year for them is January-March. Had this kickstarter campaign hit in the summer I would have been able to afford it.

And contrary to what the others have said, I really like the fact that this game can use minis and that the kickstarter was going to give us a good deal to grab a bunch. I honestly don't know what is so confusing about this design using both blocks and minis. And as I said above I don't think that theory of confusion is what hurt the money haul for this game. It's the Kickstarter burn out, and bad seasonal timing I think.


As charles says =- i don't think this is true - Zombicide 2 launched at the worst time of the year, and has just finished - raising $2.2m - so it would seem to blow both your points out the water A) that once played zombicide isn't very good and B) don't launch in january as no one has any money - so i think it can work, trouble is a lot of projects just aren't that interesting (btw!! i'm not including war stories as i think this looks like an excellent game) or are too niche - the big kickstarter money only comes with cult games or ones appealing to a broad spectrum - war games are a pretty niche subject..
However - Hero's of normandie seems to be showing how to do a kickstarted wargame - they are providing loads of info - and slowly building some nice momentum, so unknown projects can succeed.. not sure about the new cthulu direction - but that brought in more backers - so hey - what do i know!


Yes, exactly (although I don't agree that Zombicide is necessarily a good game because it drew a lot of money).

If you take a step back and look at general patterns amongst Kickstarter success stories we see that projects succeed based on:

Quality miniatures at a good value which can be used for multiple purposes

Zombicide has awesome minis and if you don't like the game you can use them for All Things Zombie, Zpocalypse or an RPG. Same with Sedition Wars. Kingdom Death is the same as well. The minis associated with Red Storm are less general purpose (how many people need a bunch of tank minis for other board games/mini games?) and the randomness is a big turn-off.

Great Art
Heroes of Normandie is the champion of this one, along with Zombicide, Kingdom Death, Rivet Wars, etc. Games that look great will draw money.

An interesting and evocative setting
Kingdom Death, Sedition Wars, Myth, etc.

What do all of these things have in common? They're all about your game being sexy and attracting people who just give your game a passing glance/thought. I don't think War Stories has sex appeal and could never compete with these other games (it doesn't have to).
 
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StuDecay wrote:
not sure about the new (Heroes of Normandie) cthulu direction - but that brought in more backers - so hey - what do i know!


Steve Jackson did almost the same thing during the Ogre campaign- if a stretch goal was reached he would agree to launch a Car Wars kickstarter. Lots of people that didn't care about Ogre pledged just so they would get Car Wars back.

Same sort of deal with Cthulu-- people will pledge for HoN just to get that. Everybody wins in that situation.

 
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scurvybuffdog wrote:
Heating bills???....really?
If you are worried about paying your heating bill you have no business looking at extras like boardgames. Just a lame excuse.

As for the trip around Italy...nobody cares about you and your wife's cruise.

The stupid things people bring up on gaming forums just kills me.


Someone needs a hug....or a hot beverage...
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