bli bla
msg tools
mbmb
How do you resolve the order of Nanok's heroic feat ("Use when you are attacked, after the dice are rolled. You are not affected by this attack.") and the use of OL cards like critical strike and the other one like adding a surge etc. ?

Let's take an exemple, the OL actives a monster and attack Nanok, attack dies are rolled, the black defense die is rolled.

1) Does Nanok have to say if he uses his heroic feat now and only now ? If not, can the OL use critical strike card and some other nasty cards ?

Or

2) Does the OL have to say if he uses critical strike card and other nasty cards (like adding a surge etc.) ? Can Nanok use his heroic feat after the use of those card ?

Thx for answer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas King
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The only timing information on his ability is that you use it when attacked and after the dice have been rolled. So you can wait until after the OL has had an opportunity to spend surges to then activate your feat and shrug off the attack.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Puldon
United States
Miller Place
New York
flag msg tools
mb
Sadly, they all(nanok's feat, critical blow, dark might) have the same condition of when to play( after dice are rollled), so it looks like Nanok can do this in the same window as after dice are rolled but before surges. I personally think, this is a little broken but oh well.

David
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
E.M. Proc
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
dpuldon wrote:
Sadly, they all(nanok's feat, critical blow, dark might) have the same condition of when to play( after dice are rollled), so it looks like Nanok can do this in the same window as after dice are rolled but before surges. I personally think, this is a little broken but oh well.

David


Based on the Golden Rules, since timing conflicts go to benefit the active player, I would say that the OL can ask "are you using your ability?" and if the hero says "no", then he could play critical blow...

Similarly, let's say a hero is attacking a 1HP monster and has an extra surge on an attack that before spending surges kills the target... He can spend the surge to (say) pierce 2 or he can recover a fatigue... But the OL can also play Dark Fortitude to save the monster... Since this is a timing issue, and timing conflicts go to benefit the active player, the hero could ask if the OL is intervening before spending the surge to recover a fatigue...

Golden Rules, page 18 wrote:
Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. In these situations, the current player (the player who is currently taking his turn) decides the order in which the abilities are resolved.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander Einich
Switzerland
Geneva
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
emproc1346 wrote:
dpuldon wrote:
Sadly, they all(nanok's feat, critical blow, dark might) have the same condition of when to play( after dice are rollled), so it looks like Nanok can do this in the same window as after dice are rolled but before surges. I personally think, this is a little broken but oh well.

David


Based on the Golden Rules, since timing conflicts go to benefit the active player, I would say that the OL can ask "are you using your ability?" and if the hero says "no", then he could play critical blow...

Similarly, let's say a hero is attacking a 1HP monster and has an extra surge on an attack that before spending surges kills the target... He can spend the surge to (say) pierce 2 or he can recover a fatigue... But the OL can also play Dark Fortitude to save the monster... Since this is a timing issue, and timing conflicts go to benefit the active player, the hero could ask if the OL is intervening before spending the surge to recover a fatigue...

Golden Rules, page 18 wrote:
Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. In these situations, the current player (the player who is currently taking his turn) decides the order in which the abilities are resolved.


I don't think the Golden Rule should be applied here, because there never is any timing conflict.

Before the OL uses his Critical Blow, there is no conflict: Nanok doesn't want to use his heroic feat. To the question "Are you using your ability?", he would answer, "Not yet."

After the OL uses his Critical Blow, there is no conflict either: Nanok uses his heroic feat.

The Golden Rule exists to solve timing conflicts, i.e. when two players want to do things at the same time, which isn't the case here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
E.M. Proc
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ispher wrote:
emproc1346 wrote:
dpuldon wrote:
Sadly, they all(nanok's feat, critical blow, dark might) have the same condition of when to play( after dice are rollled), so it looks like Nanok can do this in the same window as after dice are rolled but before surges. I personally think, this is a little broken but oh well.

David


Based on the Golden Rules, since timing conflicts go to benefit the active player, I would say that the OL can ask "are you using your ability?" and if the hero says "no", then he could play critical blow...

Similarly, let's say a hero is attacking a 1HP monster and has an extra surge on an attack that before spending surges kills the target... He can spend the surge to (say) pierce 2 or he can recover a fatigue... But the OL can also play Dark Fortitude to save the monster... Since this is a timing issue, and timing conflicts go to benefit the active player, the hero could ask if the OL is intervening before spending the surge to recover a fatigue...

Golden Rules, page 18 wrote:
Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. In these situations, the current player (the player who is currently taking his turn) decides the order in which the abilities are resolved.


I don't think the Golden Rule should be applied here, because there never is any timing conflict.

Before the OL uses his Critical Blow, there is no conflict: Nanok doesn't want to use his heroic feat. To the question "Are you using your ability?", he would answer, "Not yet."

After the OL uses his Critical Blow, there is no conflict either: Nanok uses his heroic feat.

The Golden Rule exists to solve timing conflicts, i.e. when two players want to do things at the same time, which isn't the case here.


This is exactly the type of situation this Golden Rule was written for... Nanok's feat states "after the dice are rolled"... Critical Blow states "after rolling dice"...

Based on the language from the golden rule, these are the same triggering condition, and so the OL gets to decide the order (in this case) of whether the hero or the OL affects the attack first... Which, of course, the OL would always have the hero resolve first...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Justin B
United States
flag msg tools
Stats not guaranteed accurate. May be made up entirely.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
However, note that unless both players pass, the other player(s) has an opportunity to use any abilities with that trigger.

Here's an example in the rules answer thread.

What this means in practice is that the overlord can try to draw out Nanok's feat by playing a card, or Nanok can preempt the overlord by canceling the attack. Perhaps it was a good roll and overlord cards will just make it worse.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander Einich
Switzerland
Geneva
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Mercuric wrote:
However, note that unless both players pass, the other player(s) has an opportunity to use any abilities with that trigger.

Here's an example in the rules answer thread.

What this means in practice is that the overlord can try to draw out Nanok's feat by playing a card, or Nanok can preempt the overlord by canceling the attack. Perhaps it was a good roll and overlord cards will just make it worse.


So it works exactly as I described it. If one player plays a card or ability after dice are rolled, the other player can respond to it with a card or ability of his own. No need of Golden Rule for that! shake

A reminder from Justin from the quoted thread:
If you need a specific order of effects and timing for when these rerolls must occur, refer to the Golden Rule. It's the active player's decision first.

There is no need of a specific order or timing when responding to an opponent's play. Again, the Golden Rule is used only whenever both players want to do something at the same time (thus the "if you need..." in Justin's explanation, which means that if the Golden Rule is not needed, i.e. if no players want to play something at the same time, then it is not applied).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dawid
Poland
Cracow
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Reading through the forum I found this thread.
As I understand conclusion here is that...
Montag451 wrote:
The only timing information on his ability is that you use it when attacked and after the dice have been rolled. So you can wait until after the OL has had an opportunity to spend surges to then activate your feat and shrug off the attack.

Then I found this other post in FFG Sez thread. It concerns not related question but Justin Kemppainen who answered that questions said something like this
Justin Kemppainen wrote:
"After rolling dice" is a condition that persists throughout the "Roll Dice" step of combat


Doesn't it contradict conclusion made here?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Charles Burke
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
No. Justin didn't say that in ended at that time, only that it lasts throughout the "Roll Dice" step.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
D P
United States
Tennessee
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Ignipes wrote:
Reading through the forum I found this thread.
As I understand conclusion here is that...
Montag451 wrote:
The only timing information on his ability is that you use it when attacked and after the dice have been rolled. So you can wait until after the OL has had an opportunity to spend surges to then activate your feat and shrug off the attack.

Then I found this other post in FFG Sez thread. It concerns not related question but Justin Kemppainen who answered that questions said something like this
Justin Kemppainen wrote:
"After rolling dice" is a condition that persists throughout the "Roll Dice" step of combat


Doesn't it contradict conclusion made here?

My thoughts...

For Nanok of the Blade's heroic feat, the wording is after dice are rolled. As you noticed, this condition for use exists during the rolling dice step of combat. As such, Nanok must use it before the OL has a chance to spend surges, since the spend surges step is after the rolling dice step.

Note that the OL can still power up the attack even after Nanok uses his ability. So if the OL can improve the attack so that it affects other heroes, the other heroes will be affected. The attack is not completely canceled at the use of Nanok's ability.

It would be nice if FFG would standardize their use of the word 'immediately,' sometimes they use it too much, and sometimes they don't use it when it could have clarified so much.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dawid
Poland
Cracow
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And here is official answer.

I wrote:
When is the moment for Nanok of the Blade to use his heroic feat?
Is it "Roll dice" combat step, or can he use it after OL played e.g. Critical Blow?
Justin Kemppainen wrote:
This would be used during 2. Roll Dice.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David L.
Germany
flag msg tools
Could somebody please break down for me what Justin's answer adds, that we didn't already knew before?
Justin conformed that both the ability and the OL card should be played in the "roll dice" combat step, but IN WHICH ORDER (of priority) is still not clear to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff

Seattle
Washington
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
EfreetInABottle wrote:
Could somebody please break down for me what Justin's answer adds, that we didn't already knew before?
Justin conformed that both the ability and the OL card should be played in the "roll dice" combat step, but IN WHICH ORDER (of priority) is still not clear to me.


Well since the person submitting the question asked if it could be played after an OL card like Critical Blow, I assume Justin meant that it cannot. #2 of the combat steps has passed by the time you are spending surges, so Nanok's ability would need to be used first.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David L.
Germany
flag msg tools
I agree that this is what Justin's answer implies - that it cannot. I only don't understand the RULE behind it, because both cards have the exact same trigger condition: "after rolling dice". Now what's the priority system of players interacting with abilities behind it?

EDIT: I just noticed that we're talking about two different things here: It is clear, that the "spending surges" step comes after the "rolling dice" step of combat. The question of the OP, though, was concerning the interaction of Nanok's ability and an OL card with the same trigger condition, as far as I understood it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeremy N
msg tools
EfreetInABottle wrote:
Justin conformed that both the ability and the OL card should be played in the "roll dice" combat step, but IN WHICH ORDER (of priority) is still not clear to me.

Quit being silly and ignoring basic rules of the game.


Descent Rules, Page 18, The Golden Rules wrote:
Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. In these situations, the current player (the player who is currently taking his turn) decides the order in which the abilities are resolved.



In this case, Nanok would have to use the ability before the OL played their card. Conversely, if Nanok wanted to use his ability, I would say the OL has the option of picking their card back up, but Nanok cannot undo his choice.

Yes, this can create a choice paradox (Nanok may only want to use his ability after the OL card since the OL card kills him), but that is what this rule is resolving. Choice paradoxes go in favor of the current player's turn.

Besides, Nanok's abilities already make him overpowered as is, cancelling a stack of overlord cards would be insane.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sean Houston
United States
Tulsa
Oklahoma
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmb
Caerus wrote:
EfreetInABottle wrote:
Could somebody please break down for me what Justin's answer adds, that we didn't already knew before?
Justin conformed that both the ability and the OL card should be played in the "roll dice" combat step, but IN WHICH ORDER (of priority) is still not clear to me.


Well since the person submitting the question asked if it could be played after an OL card like Critical Blow, I assume Justin meant that it cannot. #2 of the combat steps has passed by the time you are spending surges, so Nanok's ability would need to be used first.


This is incorrect. Critical Blow is played in step 2 (after dice are rolled). The card only adds a surge opportunity, it doesn't involve spending surges at all. If the OL plays CB, Nanok can respond by using his Heroic Feat. They both happen at the same step, and any ability declaration opens another window to remain in that step and continue playing abilities.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff

Seattle
Washington
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
SeanLuc wrote:
Caerus wrote:
EfreetInABottle wrote:
Could somebody please break down for me what Justin's answer adds, that we didn't already knew before?
Justin conformed that both the ability and the OL card should be played in the "roll dice" combat step, but IN WHICH ORDER (of priority) is still not clear to me.


Well since the person submitting the question asked if it could be played after an OL card like Critical Blow, I assume Justin meant that it cannot. #2 of the combat steps has passed by the time you are spending surges, so Nanok's ability would need to be used first.


This is incorrect. Critical Blow is played in step 2 (after dice are rolled). The card only adds a surge opportunity, it doesn't involve spending surges at all. If the OL plays CB, Nanok can respond by using his Heroic Feat. They both happen at the same step, and any ability declaration opens another window to remain in that step and continue playing abilities.


Now that I have looked at the OL card I see what your saying and agree. I don't really understand Justin's response in this post then. Since he asked if it can be used during the roll dice step or after the overlord played critical blow, it seems reasonable to conclude that it cannot be played after critical blow. But just as EfreetInABottle is saying, I don't know what rule would require this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David L.
Germany
flag msg tools
Tired of arguing and of other members being insulting, I took a shot and just FFG about it:

Question posed to FFG wrote:
It occurs to me that the "Golden Rule" regarding Timing in D2E is not quite clear.
I am referring to this sentence: "Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. In these situations, the current player (the player who is currently taking his turn) decides the order in which the abilities are resolved."

I would like to ask you kindly to clarify what this sentence refers to:
A) The Situation, when two players (e.g. the OL and a hero) BOTH WANT to play a card / activate an ability.
B) The Situation, when one player WANTS to play something and the other DOES NOT YET. E.g. the OL wants to play a card after combat dice roll, but would rather like the other player to declare whether he uses his heroic feat that has the same trigger condition ("after dice have been rolled") FIRST.

Answer from FFG wrote:
The golden rule that you referenced applies to situation A, not B. When two things are happening because of the same trigger, the active player decides which happens first.

Hope, that helps!

Nathan Hajek
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games


From this answer, I conclude that as OL it's NOT possible to draw out a feat from a hero. To be fair, though, Nathan didn't say it directly, as I rather had liked.

I DO agree, however, that Nanok's ability is strong enough without such a ruling and could see houseruling it so that the hero has to announce its use before the OL uses any cards, anyways.
But the point was clearing up (some of) the rules mess in D2E, not fitting the rules to the power level of specific cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.