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Subject: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going and... rss

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Matthew M
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What is the highest number of times possible that a player's discard pile could get shuffled back into his draw deck?


Roll over for what I believe is the answer:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Seven


-MMM
 
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Joe Stude
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Re: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going an
Yeep. I dig these but I haven't played enough advanced rules to be able to do them well yet. Interesting premise, though.

"Deck me? Yeah, right."
 
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Karl
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Re: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going an
How would you do that? I count only 5 times myself.
And yeah - it is kinda frightening. Lets assume that a regular single BM match (without reshuffling) needs 30 minutes. How long could a theorethical fight to 5 crystals last?
 
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Matthew M
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Re: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going an
kilrah wrote:
How would you do that? I count only 5 times myself.


I'll let it sit out there a bit before explaining how I got my answer...

-MMM
 
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Matthew Goddard
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Re: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going an
Can't wait for the answer....
 
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Matthew M
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Re: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going an
Two clues ahead. The second is more telling than the first. Obviously, don't look at either one if you want to figure it out for yourself:

Clue 1:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
To get the highest number possible, your opponent needs to help


Clue 2:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
When using constructed decks both players can have a copy of the same card



-MMM
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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kilrah wrote:
How would you do that? I count only 5 times myself.


No, he's right. I didn't do the analysis before looking at the answer, was surprised, but worked it out with a bit of thought. Note that by both players each having cards A, B and C (there's a hint for you) both players can shuffle X times each, for the suggested X.

Quote:
And yeah - it is kinda frightening. Lets assume that a regular single BM match (without reshuffling) needs 30 minutes. How long could a theorethical fight to 5 crystals last?


I think it's overwhelmingly likely someone would accidentally win an outright victory before then.

Now to make it worse this slows down the game for two reasons, more cards to play, but also just the actual shuffling. But there are other ways to have to shuffle than this, and bounding that's a bit tricky, if indeed possible (any suggestions?)

And is it possible, by collaboration between players (all of these silly cases need cooperation), to produce an infinite loop (i.e. we each do stuff, over however many turns we need, and end up back where we started)?
 
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Matthew M
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Re: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going an
Dearlove wrote:

And is it possible, by collaboration between players (all of these silly cases need cooperation), to produce an infinite loop (i.e. we each do stuff, over however many turns we need, and end up back where we started)?


Having an infinitely long game was the original premise of this puzzle - until I checked the text on one of those A, B, and C cards you mentioned earlier - oh...and the other player only needs cards B and C (depending on how you're counting).

A true infinite loop in the sense that you are talking about isn't quite possible but close. Cards in hand would differ at the end of it all and Chosen of Nature would be played - thus out of someone's deck, but it is possible in theory to have played every card in both decks except one per-side in a single fight (assuming some awfully silly builds and very particular order of draws and plays) with the end result being no dragons attracted. Play Chosen of Nature as the first action of the next fight and all the cards are back in the draw decks except (Chosen of Nature) with all the dragons are in the middle.

What fun that would be, eh!?

-MMM
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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Octavian wrote:
the other player only needs cards B and C (depending on how you're counting).


I generalised your comment to X reshuffles each, the second player needs A to get the final reshuffle.[/q]
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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Octavian wrote:
A true infinite loop in the sense that you are talking about isn't quite possible but close.


It's not possible with these cards - but can it be done by other means? And I believe the answer is yes. And here is one example - concealed as usual. Hint - a loop can't use leadership cards, but must involve bringing cards back to hand. Look through all the candidates and something may click.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Key cards Shaman of the Afterlife (SotA) and Gloria Gracia (GG). There are options for the third card, but I'll use Launch Sloth Gas (LSG).

Setup

I play SotA, you play SotA.
I play GG retrieving SotA and play LSG, you play GG retrieving SotA.
I retreat, without giving up a dragon. Both GG and my LSG go to discard pile.

Start of Loop

I play SotA retrieving GG and LSG. You play SotA retrieving GG.
I play GG retrieving SotA and play LSG, you play GG retrieving SotA.
I retreat, without giving up a dragon. Both GG and my LSG go to discard pile.

End of Loop

Actually the loop could start after the first two cards, but I thought a loop that corresponded to a fight was cleaner.
 
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Karl
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Re: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going an
There's my problem - I only seem to be able to identify cards A and B, no card C. Whats the 3rd reshuffle card? Ok, I guess you could say that if the discard pile is small enough a small number of cards are already the whole pile. Then it would work out.
 
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kilrah wrote:
There's my problem - I only seem to be able to identify cards A and B, no card C. Whats the 3rd reshuffle card?


OK hints in turn. See how few you need.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
It's not a reshuffle card.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
So if you want to reshuffle again you need to reuse A or B.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
There's only one way to do that.


Spoiler (click to reveal)
It's even pointed out in the FAQ.

 
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Allen Doum
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Dearlove wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
It's even pointed out in the FAQ.



Spoiler (click to reveal)
It's even pointed out in my review.
 
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Matthew M
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Re: Blue Moon Puzzle - It keeps going and going and going an
The answer for my original question:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The cards you need are Water of Immortality, Chosen of Nature, and Chosen of Fire

The order of plays are (with shuffles counted in parentheses):
Water of Immortality(1)
Chosen of Nature(2)
Opponent plays Chosen of Nature(3)
Chosen of Fire (both retrieve Chosen of Nature)
Chosen of Nature(4)
Opponent plays Chosen of Nature(5)
Opponent plays Chosen of Fire (both retrieve Chosen of Nature)
Chosen of Nature(6)
Opponent plays Chosen of Nature(7)


-MMM
 
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