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Subject: Gateway to Heaven? rss

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Steve Wraxall
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I'm after some friendly advice please folks.

I'm pretty new to board games in general, but have a few purchases under my belt. Previously I asked for advice on here, on which game to introduce to some NBG friends, from my fledgling collection. 7 Wonders seemed to be the flavour of the day on their kind advice and I tried it on a couple of friends, one enjoyed it, one was 'meh'. I think my 'meh' friend will be like that for whatever I try with him, but that's a lesson learnt.

Suffice to say my knowledge of board games is limited and most I now have, or are in the post, are from reading up on here, rather than having actually played them.

So what I'm actually asking is a recommendation for your ultimate gateway game, or indeed something a bit more challenging.
Timewise I'd have thought 90mins as a max, preferably 60mins, but I'm open to suggestions.
I have Airlines Europe, so I'm reluctant to shell out on Ticket to Ride: Europe. I have bought and tried Discworld: Ankh-Morpork with a family member and am toying with trying that on them.
I have The Castles of Burgundy, Infinite City and Puerto Rico on their way, but have played none of them before.
I also like the look and sound of Ginkgopolis.

What would your next purchase be in my shoes?
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Boris Zutic
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Hi,

I would suggest that you take a look at Lords of Waterdeep. It's little bit lighter worker placement game. Also Dixit can work really well with non gamers.

Boris
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Steve Wraxall
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zubor wrote:
Hi,

I would suggest that you take a look at Lords of Waterdeep. It's little bit lighter worker placement game. Also Dixit can work really well with non gamers.

Boris


Thanks Boris, Lords of Waterdeep looks intriguing. I'm probably going to buy Dixit at some point anyway, but probably as a family/party game. I think in this instance I want something with a bit more meat on the bone though.

Keep them coming guys, all and any suggestions welcome and appreciated.
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Pasi Ojala
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You should certainly try Ankh-Morpork with them, even if to find what they prefer and don't like about it. Also note to mention that it takes at least one practice game to really get the hang of it, or any other game for that matter.

How many players do you have? Do you know, if they generally prefer co-operative, competitive: either race to finish, or play against other players, perhaps hidden objectives or traitors? Are there any specific themes they are fond of?

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heavyriffs wrote:
I'm after some friendly advice please folks.

I'm pretty new to board games in general, but have a few purchases under my belt. Previously I asked for advice on here, on which game to introduce to some NBG friends, from my fledgling collection. 7 Wonders seemed to be the flavour of the day on their kind advice and I tried it on a couple of friends, one enjoyed it, one was 'meh'. I think my 'meh' friend will be like that for whatever I try with him, but that's a lesson learnt.

Suffice to say my knowledge of board games is limited and most I now have, or are in the post, are from reading up on here, rather than having actually played them.

So what I'm actually asking is a recommendation for your ultimate gateway game, or indeed something a bit more challenging.
Timewise I'd have thought 90mins as a max, preferably 60mins, but I'm open to suggestions.
I have Airlines Europe, so I'm reluctant to shell out on Ticket to Ride: Europe. I have bought and tried Discworld: Ankh-Morpork with a family member and am toying with trying that on them.
I have The Castles of Burgundy, Infinite City and Puerto Rico on their way, but have played none of them before.
I also like the look and sound of Ginkgopolis.

What would your next purchase be in my shoes?



Discworld: A-M. Definitely. Lots of fun in that box.
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Steve Wraxall
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a1bert wrote:
You should certainly try Ankh-Morpork with them, even if to find what they prefer and don't like about it. Also note to mention that it takes at least one practice game to really get the hang of it, or any other game for that matter.

How many players do you have? Do you know, if they generally prefer co-operative, competitive: either race to finish, or play against other players, perhaps hidden objectives or traitors? Are there any specific themes they are fond of?


Thanks Albert.

I've played Discworld: Ankh-Morpork quite a few times already with a family member and I really like it and am now familiar with it.
It's likely to just be a group of three of us, including 'meh' friend, who I'm not willing to give up on just yet!
They have no preferences whatsoever, as there only previous reference points are the days of Monopoly, Clue et al.
So they are a blank slate, other than the aforementioned plays of 7 Wonders.

But I'm mainly after ideas for a gateway, or next step up from a gateway game. To be played with family as well, but tried out on them also maybe.
 
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Steve Wraxall
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tssfulk wrote:
Discworld: A-M. Definitely. Lots of fun in that box.


Yeah I know, I personally love that game and will likely be trying it out on them, along with 7 Wonders again.
It's the next essential purchase I'm looking for though...
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Does the 'meh' friend have any favourite tv series or special hobby?

As an abstract game for 3-4 players I would recommend Blokus Trigon and Tetris Link. The rules are simple and suitably quick, but you still have to rack your brain to try to anticipate what the opponents are doing, and naturally try to cut them off if you can.

King of Tokyo is also easy to get into, but surprisingly is not only about the luck of the roll of the dice. You have to adjust your play depending on what you roll. (Not good for 2 players, but works with 3.)

If you like asymmetric character powers, Cosmic Encounter could work well. The rules are quite simple, but the special powers of the aliens and effects of the cards cause each game to be different. (3-5 players, each of the three available expansions add 1 player)

We also play Race for the Galaxy. It's a bit 'meh' for me, but if I'm winning, it is great!

If you are a fan of Cube, check Room 25 for 1-6 players. You try to find the exit room and escape before it is too late, but beware of the traps and lethal rooms. Contains co-op (or solo), team, competition, and suspicion modes (there are 0-2 guards in play), so is quite versatile. The difficulty level can also be adjusted.

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Steve Wraxall
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a1bert wrote:
Does the 'meh' friend have any favourite tv series or special hobby?

As an abstract game for 3-4 players I would recommend Blokus Trigon and Tetris Link. The rules are simple and suitably quick, but you still have to rack your brain to try to anticipate what the opponents are doing, and naturally try to cut them off if you can.

King of Tokyo is also easy to get into, but surprisingly is not only about the luck of the roll of the dice. You have to adjust your play depending on what you roll. (Not good for 2 players, but works with 3.)

If you like asymmetric character powers, Cosmic Encounter could work well. The rules are quite simple, but the special powers of the aliens and effects of the cards cause each game to be different. (3-5 players, each of the three available expansions add 1 player)

We also play Race for the Galaxy. It's a bit 'meh' for me, but if I'm winning, it is great!

If you are a fan of Cube, check Room 25 for 1-6 players. You try to find the exit room and escape before it is too late, but beware of the traps and lethal rooms. Contains co-op (or solo), team, competition, and suspicion modes (there are 0-2 guards in play), so is quite versatile. The difficulty level can also be adjusted.



His favourite hobby is eating, but we won't go down that route! Ha

I have FITS and Ingenious, so won't really be going down the abstract path.
Only been to a few gaming nights so far and King of Tokyo hit the table, but it was a bit too cartoon like and seriously lacking depth for me if I'm honest (I know it's a filler).

From what I've read about Race for the Galaxy, the iconology might scare them off initially, Cosmic Encounter maybe...

I've just looked up Room 25, but the possible longevity of that concerns me.

I'll probably use 7 Wonders, then Discworld: Ankh-Morpork, it's the main event that I now need...

Thanks for the helpful suggestions so far though, much appreciated.
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Pasi Ojala
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heavyriffs wrote:
I've just looked up Room 25, but the possible longevity of that concerns me.

I'll probably use 7 Wonders, then Discworld: Ankh-Morpork, it's the main event that I now need...

Yes, it's a good plan to see which game to introduce next. (And do have Ingenious as a filler/backup.)

I will let you know about Room 25. I think it will continue to be interesting, if we get a good player rotation and can play the different modes with various number of players. The game seems quite adjustable with house rules and customized rooms. But it was a good buy in any case, we've had fun and the game encouraged me to start painting figurines (see image/1612810/room-25).

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a1bert wrote:
But it was a good buy in any case, we've had fun and the game encouraged me to start painting figurines (see image/1612810/room-25).

Much better than anything I could attempt!


More game suggestions welcome guys.
 
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As it's a Sunday and I've had a coffee I'm going to be indulgent and think out loud (forgive me):

If you own and like Airlines Europe then Ticket to Ride: Europe is a step down in both complexity and depth so I wouldn't do it.

Looking at your collection you've got a mix of light games with your top game being the stand out heaviest in your collection - Twilight Struggle

I get the feeling you're beyond 'Gateway games', however it's worth remembering to buy the games that will get played not the games you want to play. So please Analise your group and give us an idea of where they are at and where they want to go.

It's also worth saying that complexity doesn't have a direct relationship with depth and that there is a cut off period where greater complexity and depth result in less fun.

Both Castles of Burgundy and Puerto Rico will offer an interesting challenge to your group - say medium weight euros with significant depth. A step on from the majority of your games. Some folk will reject them as being non-fun and too dry (my casal group feelings toward Puerto Rico are 'mechanically fine but not fun).

So currently based on your collection for the most part I'd categories you as basically a euro gamer who isn't greatly interested in lots of direct player interaction or direct conflict games. Is this how your see your gaming interests or are you itching for more player interaction and/or conflict? Also what are your preferences when it comes to theme?

If you enjoy The Castles of Burgundy and Puerto Rico and want something of fairly similar weight then Agricola or for a little lighter but more theme +1 Lords of Waterdeep.

Answer these questions and I suggest more.

***(just read through the full thread now)***

Quote:
But I'm mainly after ideas for a gateway, or next step up from a gateway game. To be played with family as well, but tried out on them also maybe.


Yikes. Um I'd move away from the deeper euros and turn them into gamers first - you may want to join an established gaming group too:

Catan (This and TTR has turned more friends into gamers than anything else £20-30)
Kingsburg (Should slightly nudge your euro depth interest while ensuing simple rules and a close finish, provided no one reads the strategy articles (this means you) £30-40
Revolution! (Nice unique blind bidding game that's easy to play and lets you beat up one another in 45 mins requires 3-4) £25-35


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Steve Wraxall
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monkeyhandz wrote:
As it's a Sunday and I've had a coffee I'm going to be indulgent and think out loud (forgive me):


Yikes, seems it was a double espresso!

Quote:

If you own and like Airlines Europe then Ticket to Ride: Europe is a step down in both complexity and depth so I wouldn't do it.



I'm steering clear of it for that very reason, plus the kind of similar theme. Plus as I said, I'm looking for that step up.

Quote:

Looking at your collection you've got a mix of light games with your top game being the stand out heaviest in your collection - Twilight Struggle



My very first purchase, if you're going to buy, you might as well start with the best! It only gets played when my brother visits on holidays, or twice recently with my none-'meh' friend, who likes it. Suffice to say it's criminally underplayed either way.

Quote:

I get the feeling you're beyond 'Gateway games', however it's worth remembering to buy the games that will get played not the games you want to play. So please Analyse your group and give us an idea of where they are at and where they want to go.

It's also worth saying that complexity doesn't have a direct relationship with depth and that there is a cut off period where greater complexity and depth result in less fun.

Both Castles of Burgundy and Puerto Rico will offer an interesting challenge to your group - say medium weight euros with significant depth. A step on from the majority of your games. Some folk will reject them as being non-fun and too dry (my casal group feelings toward Puerto Rico are 'mechanically fine but not fun).

So currently based on your collection for the most part I'd categories you as basically a euro gamer who isn't greatly interested in lots of direct player interaction or direct conflict games. Is this how your see your gaming interests or are you itching for more player interaction and/or conflict? Also what are your preferences when it comes to theme?


I think I'm definitely beyond gateway games, that's why I'm after that elusive suggestion and to drag others kicking and screaming with me.

I'm open to both player interaction and maybe conflict, just haven't played the games that have it.
Discworld: Ankh-Morpork has some nice 'screwage' to it, but I wouldn't want people to never play games of that nature, if it was that heavy that it had ruined a game for them.

I think I'm theme neutral and would try anything. Although not massively drawn to D&D, or hack and slash type games, but purely from a feeling, rather than having experienced them.

Quote:

If you enjoy The Castles of Burgundy and Puerto Rico and want something of fairly similar weight then Agricola or for a little lighter but more theme +1 Lords of Waterdeep.


Trouble is, both The Castles of Burgundy and Puerto Rico are both in the post, I've never played either of them.
People that discuss Lords of Waterdeep on here, complain that it's crying out for an expansion, gets samey and the issue with mandatory quests. I think those things taken together are turning me away from it.

Quote:

Answer these questions and I suggest more.

***(just read through the full thread now)***

Quote:
But I'm mainly after ideas for a gateway, or next step up from a gateway game. To be played with family as well, but tried out on them also maybe.


Yikes. Um I'd move away from the deeper euros and turn them into gamers first - you may want to join an established gaming group too:

Catan (This and TTR has turned more friends into gamers than anything else £20-30)
Kingsburg (Should slightly nudge your euro depth interest while ensuing simple rules and a close finish, provided no one reads the strategy articles (this means you) £30-40
Revolution! (Nice unique blind bidding game that's easy to play and lets you beat up one another in 45 mins requires 3-4) £25-35




I've joined a gaming group recently, been once, played Dominion and 7 Wonders. So you see my plight on a general lack of gaming knowledge, or play time.
I've played Catan (2007) on my xbox, as I have Carsaconne as well, neither blew me away.
I've looked at Kingsburg a fair bit already, this one might be a healthy option.
Revolution! doesn't sound all that to me for some reason.

Thanks for your help and suggestions thus far though, it's appreciated!
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heavyriffs wrote:
I think in this instance I want something with a bit more meat on the bone though.

Keep them coming guys, all and any suggestions welcome and appreciated.


Than look no further than Yedo. Have a look at Rahdo's video about the game. This has more meat than Lords of Waterdeep
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Steve Wraxall
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zubor wrote:
heavyriffs wrote:
I think in this instance I want something with a bit more meat on the bone though.

Keep them coming guys, all and any suggestions welcome and appreciated.


Than look no further than Yedo. Have a look at Rahdo's video about the game. This has more meat than Lords of Waterdeep
Boris


Thanks for the suggestion Boris, but we're definitely into a bone with way too much meat on it with that one I think!
Going on the listed play time for that one on here, it clocks in at 150min, I'm ideally looking for something 60-90min to keep family and new gamers happy, but also a gaming step up.
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Wow. If those are gateway games, I don't have many.
The games that got me into gaming, and I've probably already mentioned this many times before are Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride (America) and Catan. After that I got some TtR and Catan expansions.
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heavyriffs wrote:
I've joined a gaming group recently, been once, played Dominion and 7 Wonders. So you see my plight on a general lack of gaming knowledge, or play time.

I've played Catan (2007) on my xbox, as I have Carsaconne as well, neither blew me away.
I've looked at Kingsburg a fair bit already, this one might be a healthy option.
Revolution! doesn't sound all that to me for some reason.


I'd keep going to your group - it might also be worth seeing if they've played, own or want to play any of the new games you've got coming.

As for your friends.... ho hum I think you need to accept their limitations and commit to playing games that are at are at a level they can get the most out of - if you force them to play games that are too complicated for them you may lose them as gamers forever. For this to work, you need to approach games with a what would they like not what is critically respected or what would I like attitude.

Both Catan and Carc are part of the holy gateway trinity of games (TTR). I can't imagine any of them would be the same playing them electronically. Board games are slow, tactile and social, in my opinion electronic games are none of these things. I'd seriously take another look at Catan.

You might try asking your non-gamers which games of yours they enjoyed the most and in general what games they like. If they both say Risk for example that opens up a whole new approach and lots of new opportunities(games).

Kingsburg is certainly worth owning - with the caviat that a lot of people point to Alien Frontiers as its successor and that the expansion is required (I disagree with both of these).

How do they feel about cooperatives? I can recommend both Castle Panic (the expansion makes it harder and long term is a necessary buy) and Flash Point: Fire Rescue. Pandemic remains my favourite coop but if you own Forbidden Island it's not worth buying as the two are too similar.

Quote:
People that discuss Lords of Waterdeep on here, complain that it's crying out for an expansion, gets samey and the issue with mandatory quests. I think those things taken together are turning me away from it.


Perhaps see if you can try before you buy at your club. You'll find that every game gets some criticism regardless of how much users admire and love it. For example some people will tell you the Puerto Rico without the expansion is repetitive. whistle
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monkeyhandz wrote:


I'd keep going to your group - it might also be worth seeing if they've played, own or want to play any of the new games you've got coming.


I know one other wants to learn Puerto Rico, as that came up in conversation.
It's a bit early for me imposing my games on them I think, having only been once and not knowing them too well, I do plan on returning though.

Quote:

As for your friends.... ho hum I think you need to accept their limitations and commit to playing games that are at are at a level they can get the most out of - if you force them to play games that are too complicated for them you may lose them as gamers forever. For this to work, you need to approach games with a what would they like not what is critically respected or what would I like attitude.

Both Catan and Carc are part of the holy gateway trinity of games (TTR). I can't imagine any of them would be the same playing them electronically. Board games are slow, tactile and social, in my opinion electronic games are none of these things. I'd seriously take another look at Catan.


I just don't think the concept grabbed me then, or would grab me again if I'm honest though.

Quote:

You might try asking your non-gamers which games of yours they enjoyed the most and in general what games they like. If they both say Risk for example that opens up a whole new approach and lots of new opportunities(games).

Kingsburg is certainly worth owning - with the caviat that a lot of people point to Alien Frontiers as its successor and that the expansion is required (I disagree with both of these).


I don't know what their limits are as yet, as they've only both tried 7 Wonders and one of them Twilight Struggle

How do they feel about cooperatives? I can recommend both Castle Panic (the expansion makes it harder and long term is a necessary buy) and Flash Point: Fire Rescue. Pandemic remains my favourite coop but if you own Forbidden Island it's not worth buying as the two are too similar.

I don't mind co-op games at all, but yes indeed, I already have Forbidden Island.

Quote:
People that discuss Lords of Waterdeep on here, complain that it's crying out for an expansion, gets samey and the issue with mandatory quests. I think those things taken together are turning me away from it.

Perhaps see if you can try before you buy at your club. You'll find that every game gets some criticism regardless of how much users admire and love it. For example some people will tell you the Puerto Rico without the expansion is repetitive. whistle


Ultimately the gateway step-up one I seek isn't just for possibly playing with my friends, but with my family (mainly brother) and maybe the gaming group too.
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xtsgarp wrote:
Stone Age and suburbia


I've looked at Suburbia a lot and it definitely appeals on a few levels. But I've just ordered Infinite City from a gamer on here, so I'm maybe looking for an alternate theme. But it's one on my wish list!
 
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Pithagoras wrote:
Wow. If those are gateway games, I don't have many.
The games that got me into gaming, and I've probably already mentioned this many times before are Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride (America) and Catan. After that I got some TtR and Catan expansions.


I appreciate that Puerto Rico and The Castles of Burgundy are far from what you'd class as gateway games. I think Airlines Europe personally is, so I'm looking for something that would fit between them.
 
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