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Subject: I'm not getting Carcassone: Hunters and Gatherers. :( rss

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Mark Crane
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I feel so ashamed!

I bought this game, and I played it with my family incorrectly at first. We were playing so that a river was only completed when it ended in a spring or was completely closed off, i.e. a river system. We also played so that meadows had to be completely closed off to get points. Whoops. In a way it was fun, because you were struggling to finish off a river but when you did the points would roll in.

So I realized I was playing it wrong, and that rivers consist of two lakes, connected (right?) and that points can be had from meadows that are unfinished, during end of game scoring.


But now when we play it (me, my wife, my nine-year-old and six-year-old) we start creating little three card rivers, getting points, and building larger forests for points, but there's not much else going on, not a lot of interaction or foiling the other players or suspense.


What am I missing here? Are we just playing this on a really shallow level (probably) or is it just kind of a calm little tile laying exercise?
 
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MK
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craniac wrote:
I feel so ashamed!

I bought this game, and I played it with my family incorrectly at first. We were playing so that a river was only completed when it ended in a spring or was completely closed off, i.e. a river system. We also played so that meadows had to be completely closed off to get points. Whoops. In a way it was fun, because you were struggling to finish off a river but when you did the points would roll in.

So I realized I was playing it wrong, and that rivers consist of two lakes, connected (right?) and that points can be had from meadows that are unfinished, during end of game scoring.


But now when we play it (me, my wife, my nine-year-old and six-year-old) we start creating little three card rivers, getting points, and building larger forests for points, but there's not much else going on, not a lot of interaction or foiling the other players or suspense.


What am I missing here? Are we just playing this on a really shallow level (probably) or is it just kind of a calm little tile laying exercise?


Yeah, you are missing something.

Here's some tactics you might try next time (be aware that your six year old might not get into it, but the nine-year old might...)

1) Use the tigers. Play tiles with tigers into meadows your opponents are building up. Remember that each tiger negates a deer at the end of the game.

2) Play to curtail opponent's points. Finish rivers for them, or finish forests for them, so that they get a small number of points. Or, run a river into an area that will be difficult to complete... for example, make the river bend around so that the next tile would have to match three or four tile sides! Or conversely, near the end of the game, make sure your opponent never finishes that big forest - keep adding more forest to it with multiple sides, so that they can't finish it on their next play.

3) Play to take over someone's forest or river. Play tiles so you each have fishers or hunters or whatnot, and then connect the two. You may both get points, of course, but if you're already ahead, you will stay ahead.

 
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Mark Crane
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Aaaaaaah. Ok, it's making more sense, but I'm not sure if the family games are going to reach that level of strategy. I'll play it tonight with four adults and see what happens.
 
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RB
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It sounds like you still may be playing the rivers incorrectly. If I recall correctly, a river scores during the game when the river system is completed. In other words, once all "ends" of the rivers are capped off (so that no other river tiles can connect to the system), it is complete and should be scored. The number of lakes in a river system does not affect when a river is complete.

Also, I think you are playing the meadows correctly, but just to be clear, meadows are ONLY scored at the end of the game (even if a meadow is completed during the game, the meeple remains and it is only scored at the end of the game).
 
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Mike Harris
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Carcassone X is really about area control. You want to try to keep control of your area forest, river, field, castle, farm, .etc. In order to do this sometimes you will have to close off your forest or opponent’s forest in order to keep control of your area (i.e. some has a forest close to yours and they have more hunters than you, you’ll need to close off your forest or their forest in order to keep your points).

Another part of the game that you may not of thought of is the fact that some pieces are really hard to build off of. You may want to give your opponent some help (hehe) by giving them these pieces as part of there areas. (This goes double if are playing Carcassone with Inns & Cathedrals (IMHO the best way)!)

The game does have some meat to it, but IMHO it is a very light family game.

EDIT: See also whatever one said above.
Someday I'll type fast.
 
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George Kinney
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If you want to see the tactics that'll win you a game of Carcassonne, I recommend you head on over to BSW and get in a few games. Most of the players there are completely ruthless.

 
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Mark Crane
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Dutch_72 wrote:
It sounds like you still may be playing the rivers incorrectly. If I recall correctly, a river scores during the game when the river system is completed. In other words, once all "ends" of the rivers are capped off (so that no other river tiles can connect to the system), it is complete and should be scored. The number of lakes in a river system does not affect when a river is complete.

Also, I think you are playing the meadows correctly, but just to be clear, meadows are ONLY scored at the end of the game (even if a meadow is completed during the game, the meeple remains and it is only scored at the end of the game).




Ladies and Gentleman of the jury,

On page three of the rules, we read:

A Completed River

A river is completed when there is

1. a lake with fish (all lakes have fish!) or

2. a spring on each end, or

3. if the river makes a complete loop.


There is no limit to the number of segments in a river.

The illustrated example shows the following sequence of tiles: Lake (1 fish)->river bend->lake (two fish) which scores for six points total.

I played about eight games before I realized that lakes complete a river. This was my first eurogame, however, so I plead The N00b amendment.
 
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Mike Daneman
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Yes, crainiac is correct (and Dutch_72 is wrong). A lake does indeed complete a river. One the other hand, finshing huts score the entire river system (not stopping on lakes) at the end of the game, but they only count the number of fish in all connected lakes.
 
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Philip Thomas
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You are playing with the special tiles, right? They add something to the game.
 
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A L D A R O N
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MikeMKH wrote:
The game does have some meat to it, but IMHO it is a very light family game.

True. But folks should be warned: H&G is not a good introductory game for the Carcassonne system because it has so many elements that are not carried over to other games: two scoring systems for the same feature using two kinds of pieces (rivers vs. river systems), no final scoring of turn-scored features (rivers and forests) -- and it is alone in scoring by segment (for rivers and forests) as opposed to tile.
 
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Mike Crotch - Harvey
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A segment is each piece of road/forest that appears on a tile, while a tile is simply the entire tile. For example if you had a crossroads this is 1 tile but has 4 seperate road segments on it.

However i thought that standard carcassonne also scored by segment rather than tile? Thats how i've played it anyway.
 
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Mark Crane
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Philip Thomas wrote:
You are playing with the special tiles, right? They add something to the game.


What are these "special tiles" you speak of?
 
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Philip Thomas
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The Special Tiles! Check your copy of the rules. But my copy, there are 12 (?) tiles with a nugget on the back which you have to seperate from the rest. These tiles are not used in normal play. Instead, whenever a player completes a forest with one or more nuggets in, he immediately draws a special tile and places it (normal rules apply). Tiles have various special abilities, as detailed inn rules.


Scoring by segment is not the same as by tile for roads which loop back upon themselves. Apart from that, yes, it is the same.
 
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elcrotchhio wrote:
However i thought that standard carcassonne also scored by segment rather than tile? Thats how i've played it anyway.

Nope. It's possible that the US version of the standard game still ships with old rules (I don't know for sure), but the current rules, as well as the rules for all other games in the family (including City, Discovery, Castle, and Ark of the Covenant) score by tile.
 
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Scoring by segment is not the same as by tile for roads which loop back upon themselves. Apart from that, yes, it is the same.

It is an issue for cities also. For example, in the case of city tiles that have two distinct segments that are part of the same city, such as the tile in the upper left:


This city has 5 segments, on 4 tiles:
 
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Chris Shaffer
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Aldaron wrote:
But folks should be warned: H&G is not a good introductory game for the Carcassonne system because it has so many elements that are not carried over to other games: two scoring systems for the same feature using two kinds of pieces (rivers vs. river systems), no final scoring of turn-scored features (rivers and forests) -- and it is alone in scoring by segment (for roads and forests) as opposed to tile.


This presumes that you're introducing C:H&G for the primary purpose of introducing the Carcassonne system. We go the other route, and introduce C:H&G for the primary purpose of introducing people to a fun game. We don't own any of the other Carcassonne games, nor do we have much interest in owning them. imho, C:H&G is the best of the lot - it's attractive to children, self contained, easy to teach, and incorporates many of the best elements of the other variants without any of their pitfalls.

You also presume that the very minor differences you cite will confuse people who learn more than one Carcassonne game. I don't think that's the case. If the people you teach C:H&G get confused by the difference between tile and segment scoring, how in the world are they ever going to figure out farmer scoring in the original game? Or the special tiles in the City game?
 
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TheCat wrote:
This presumes that you're introducing C:H&G for the primary purpose of introducing the Carcassonne system.

It presumes nothing of the kind. I was explicitly assuming it, which I why I said "H&G is not a good introductory game for the Carcassonne system". It's fine as a nice easy tile laying game for its own sake.

TheCat wrote:
You also presume that the very minor differences you cite will confuse people who learn more than one Carcassonne game.

That's been my experience: the tile vs. segment thing is something the leaves beginners vexed when they move between games, not because it's confusing, but because it is easy to forget.

TheCat wrote:
[H]ow in the world are they ever going to figure out farmer scoring in the original game?

No one should be using those rules!
 
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Jonas Persson
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Aldaron wrote:
... and it is alone in scoring by segment (for roads and forests) as opposed to tile.


Thanks! We have always counted the tiles when scoring forests and rivers in H&G, but it is clearly stated in the rulebook (page 4) that you are perfectly right.

But there are no roads in H&G!
 
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