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Subject: So I just had this weird idea for a Jinteki ability. rss

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Scott Osborn
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You may advance any installed card.

The advancements don't add anything to the card if it isnt an advanceable card. They just sit there. Making you wonder. Is it a snare? a junebug? an edge of world??? an agenda?????

And everytime I run his hand I just pull trick of light?!? ARRRRRGGGHHHH.

Now thats how you give the runner brain damage!
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Mad Scientist Philip von Doomula
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Ways to break Netrunner #6341321...
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Lech Karol Pawłaszek
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Way too overpowered.

I get the idea - you want to use EoW, but you're unable to trick Runners. Well. That's not the way to go. That's not how you give brain damage

Hint: don't advance Agenda asap. Just let it lay there for a sec or so. Even better, when you play 3 point agendas. EoW should be placed when Runner HAVE TO run (and cannot infiltrate). Snare!? Keep it in your hand. The more the merrier.
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Patrick Jamet
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Or is it underpowered ?

A Snare! with 2 counters would cost way more than a Junebug with 2 counters and would do less damage. So... I think it's just a waste of clicks and credits.
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Ony Moose
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You could advance your Corporate Troubleshooter and install an Edge of World in to your tower of ICE... Would be rather overpowered!
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Scott Osborn
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ikex wrote:
Way too overpowered.

I get the idea - you want to use EoW, but you're unable to trick Runners. Well. That's not the way to go. That's not how you give brain damage

Hint: don't advance Agenda asap. Just let it lay there for a sec or so. Even better, when you play 3 point agendas. EoW should be placed when Runner HAVE TO run (and cannot infiltrate). Snare!? Keep it in your hand. The more the merrier.


I know how to score an edge of world, and I dont auto-advance agendas either. I do actually have some knowledge of the game.

I just thought this would be one more trick for jinteki. I dont see how it could possibly be overpowered since you are still pay clicks and creds for them. Its just another mind game.

I dont see how that breaks netrunner.
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Lee Shelton

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Certain cards are balanced somewhat around being able to discern to a certain degree what they may be, even when facedown.

Everyone brings up Edge of World because it's the best example (though Snare! works good as well). Currently, since there are no advance-able upgrades, if you see an advanced card in the root of a server you know it is impossible for one of those cards to be Edge of World.

Now, the concept has merit - I just guarantee you we'll end up seeing it borne out on an upgrade card itself for Jinteki that allows advancement, as opposed to an ID that says "advance whatever you want". That way it's limited to a few cards in your deck, still a threat that the runner has to be aware of but not omnipresent.
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Alejandro G.
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Contig the fallen
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It's also good to note that ambushes which can be advanced do nothing when they're not advanced. However, normal ambushes don't carry this drawback.
 
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Fiend Fellow
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contiguity wrote:
It's also good to note that ambushes which can be advanced do nothing when they're not advanced. However, normal ambushes don't carry this drawback.


That's because the non-advanceable ambushes all are pay 3-4 credits to activate. If you don't have those bits on hand to lose, they just trash it no cost. Not to mention, even if you do activate it, you still will lose credits that, as Jinteki, are more precious than in other corps.
 
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Lluluien
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Pyjam wrote:
Or is it underpowered ?

A Snare! with 2 counters would cost way more than a Junebug with 2 counters and would do less damage. So... I think it's just a waste of clicks and credits.


I'm with you on this. I think one of the serious problems with trying to play Jinteki well is managing everything you need to do in light of the fact that you're paying 50-100% more clicks and credits on advancement than the other factions, and Jinteki is pretty poor already compared to the other ones.

I feel like an identity that does this would look good on paper but actually be a trap. In light of that, I'd be perfectly fine if they released one like this. Some of the awesome Jinteki mind@^$! ninjas would find a way to make it work, and more power to them. Do I think it would make Jinteki OP though? No way. If anything, I'd expect their win rate to go down if a card like this got released.
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Steven Tu
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Why don't you guys playtest it and let us know if it's OP or not?
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Kaiwen Zhang
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sounds like a fun ability, FFG has shown they're not afraid to have fun abilities so far (HB new identity is the best example), so why not try it? people are too quick to shoot down suggestions here. shake

could also add some handicap/boost if its op/up, for example can only advance upgrades that way.
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David Hammond
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Hm, I think what everyone is overlooking is how it makes Tyrant and Woodcutter the best ICE in the game.
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Lluluien
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Tuism wrote:
Why don't you guys playtest it and let us know if it's OP or not?


Sadly, I won't be a very good test for this I think. All the fail are belong to me when I play Jinteki :/ You can obviously take my judgement about the relative power of this ability with a grain of salt because of that, but for what it's worth, all the thought I put into the specific issue I stated with the issue of the expense of advancing Jinteki cards was the seed of my Never Advance NBN deck, so I've got a lot of time in stewing over the issue.

On the other hand, I guess if I could play that identity and make it work, maybe that IS a good test, because that probably WOULD indicate it's OP. I am definitely not one of those evil Jinteki ninjas I mentioned earlier

On another tangent, I think it's an interesting statement about the strategic options available in this game that I AM an evil ninja bastard with my Never Advance deck, which is also a trap deck, and still fail so badly with Jinteki. +1 to A:NR for awesome design
 
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Lluluien
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AZrugger wrote:
Hm, I think what everyone is overlooking is how it makes Tyrant and Woodcutter the best ICE in the game.


I'm okay with that myself, given the influence cost of this (assuming the ability is a Jinteki identity). The way I see it, if FFG is making an effort not to have too much power creep in there their expansions, new abilities like the one proposed by the OP which enable niche decks like the one you suggest here are the interesting things that give the game a long, healthy life!
 
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Frank Brooks
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AZrugger wrote:
Hm, I think what everyone is overlooking is how it makes Tyrant and Woodcutter the best ICE in the game.


Not necessarily "the best" but it certainly makes Woodcutter way better in Jinteki.

I personally feel this ability is quite powerful and limits design space at the cost of having a "neat" ability for now.

I don't like the ability to advance and region. Regions tend to be very expensive to trash and even if it is not a trap, it is still a major waste for the runner. Especially since you could still install an agenda on that server the next turn and still have access to your "trap" region. Every other advance-able trap is at least lost after the runner access it.

For example, now you can advance a SanSan behind expensive ice. Have them run it when it is two advanced to destroy your ToL target just to come across a SanSan. Then the next turn you can rez it, install an agenda, ToL from the SanSan and advance it again to score a 4 advance agenda in one turn. You could have put it on any random ice, but you "forced" your opponent to run your region. I think the abiity is too powerful. You would have to give it less influence or some other drawback I think for you to really consider being able to use something this powerful.
 
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Lluluien
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BoShek wrote:
AZrugger wrote:
Hm, I think what everyone is overlooking is how it makes Tyrant and Woodcutter the best ICE in the game.


Not necessarily "the best" but it certainly makes Woodcutter way better in Jinteki.

I personally feel this ability is quite powerful and limits design space at the cost of having a "neat" ability for now.

I don't like the ability to advance and region. Regions tend to be very expensive to trash and even if it is not a trap, it is still a major waste for the runner. Especially since you could still install an agenda on that server the next turn and still have access to your "trap" region. Every other advance-able trap is at least lost after the runner access it.

For example, now you can advance a SanSan behind expensive ice. Have them run it when it is two advanced to destroy your ToL target just to come across a SanSan. Then the next turn you can rez it, install an agenda, ToL from the SanSan and advance it again to score a 4 advance agenda in one turn. You could have put it on any random ice, but you "forced" your opponent to run your region. I think the abiity is too powerful. You would have to give it less influence or some other drawback I think for you to really consider being able to use something this powerful.


In fairness, what you're proposing would cost 6 credits for SanSan, 1 credit for advancement, and 2 credits for Trick of Light (correct? I believe this costs 2?), and that you have done some non-trivial setup prior to the turn you pull this off. I think you should be able to do something this powerful for that sort of cost. Femme Fatale can be equally powerful for the same credit cost and requires far less setup.

If anything, I think what you're proposing is GREAT, because it forces the Runner to consider what will happen if they just sit on their arse and build a rig or mill you with viruses. Yeah, you'd better go kill that SanSan.

That said, I think the point you make here does bring up a situation where you need to add something the OP's proposal:

Whatever form this ability takes, it probably needs to come with the following disadvantage:

"The Runner may now choose to access only a subset of the cards installed in a remote server if he or she chooses."

Being able to stick an Edge of World in with a SanSan in the situation you propose IS too powerful unless this stipulation is added.
 
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William Frank
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lluluien wrote:
In fairness, what you're proposing would cost 6 credits for SanSan, 1 credit for advancement, and 2 credits for Trick of Light (correct? I believe this costs 2?), and that you have done some non-trivial setup prior to the turn you pull this off. I think you should be able to do something this powerful for that sort of cost.


The other half of the problem is that every other card that gets advancement counters has something happen to it when it's accessed by the runner--either it's scored, or it's a trap, but it's gone. And you'll note that all the other assets that can be advanced (Ghost Branch, Aggressive Secretary, Project Junebug) have trash cost 0.

Yes, the Corp would need a bunch of credits to pull that trick off, but while you wait, you can keep two advancement counters on SanSan, unrezzed, because the runner doesn't have five credits to trash it when the runner hits it.

I would suggest that a disadvantageous aspect needs to be "any cards with an advancement token that cannot ordinarily be advanced have trash cost 0."
 
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Lluluien
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scifantasy wrote:
lluluien wrote:
In fairness, what you're proposing would cost 6 credits for SanSan, 1 credit for advancement, and 2 credits for Trick of Light (correct? I believe this costs 2?), and that you have done some non-trivial setup prior to the turn you pull this off. I think you should be able to do something this powerful for that sort of cost.


The other half of the problem is that every other card that gets advancement counters has something happen to it when it's accessed by the runner--either it's scored, or it's a trap, but it's gone. And you'll note that all the other assets that can be advanced (Ghost Branch, Aggressive Secretary, Project Junebug) have trash cost 0.

Yes, the Corp would need a bunch of credits to pull that trick off, but while you wait, you can keep two advancement counters on SanSan, unrezzed, because the runner doesn't have five credits to trash it when the runner hits it.

I would suggest that a disadvantageous aspect needs to be "any cards with an advancement token that cannot ordinarily be advanced have trash cost 0."


While you're waiting though with the 2 counter SanSan, I don't see any reason the Runner can't bank credits to come take it out. This strategy is just a counterplay to the runner holding only recurring credits + what he can generate in two clicks + on-turn-begins triggers, which is how I see a lot of them play once they have arrived at full rig. I think that's a good thing.

The problem I think would be what I mentioned earlier - if you're playing with this power, the Runner needs to be able to go blast advanced SanSan without having to hit a trap that you put there to guard it so he couldn't.

I would think the more common objection to this power, even with the "Runner may now access subsets of remote server assets and upgrades" disadvantage, would be being able to stick your Trick of Light counters on some random piece of ICE. The counterplay to that would be to run Parasites/Forged Activation Orders/etc. Putting 2 clicks and two credits into random advancements isn't all that different than Biotic Labor anyway, is it?

I don't dispute that an ability like this would have the opportunity to make things go pear-shaped, but I don't see that as an immediate consequence of it myself. I think it's quite possible something like this could be added to the game without causing undue harm, especially if it was a Jinteki identity so it would limit somewhat how much it interacted with the rest of the card base.

Could it go the other way though? Absolutely. That's the problem with trying to add anything that's a new play mechanic though. Tuism probably has the right idea on this one - just need to playtest the hell out of it
 
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Mat Nowak
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It would need a pretty significant downside in order to be fair to the runner. I'm thinking something even as simple as the runner taking all the advancement tokens off of the cards he encounters/accesses that cannot normally hold advancement tokens and converts them to credits 1:1 would balance it somewhat.
 
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Andrew Barrett
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My idea for jinteki identity:

Jinteki: Send in The Clones

The first time a runner would access a card in one of your remote servers, you may have that runner instead access a remote server from another corporation in any game of Android:Nentrunner Adjacent to you.
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Alejandro G.
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...wat u say?
 
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Steven Tu
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Chill84 wrote:
My idea for jinteki identity:

Jinteki: Send in The Clones

The first time a runner would access a card in one of your remote servers, you may have that runner instead access a remote server from another corporation in any game of Android:Nentrunner Adjacent to you.


 
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Bob Bobberson
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I think this is a great idea. I'm all for powering up the corp, and this one lets you build on the only tangible advantage a corp has over the runner: knowledge and secrecy. I will try to test run this with my group as soon as possible.
 
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