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Subject: Consequences of "tutoring" for breakers rss

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Frank Brooks
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So I've been thinking about what is the worst part about my current deck. I am not going to full post of my deck list since I have a Regionals event next week. Without revealing much, I have been thinking about the issue with searching your deck for breakers. If you play a card that searches your deck for a breaker, you have forfeited the secret of what you are looking for. Even if you don't install it right away you have told you opponent a card in your hand.

One advantage of this is your opponent may be afraid to put an agenda in their remote since you just got the key to break passed the ice there. (This is simple enough: finding a Ninja kills Rototurret, Yog kills Enigma, Snowball kills Ice Wall, etc.) Outside of now having exactly the breaker you were looking for, this is about the only good thing you get from revealing a card.

The major disadvantage is twofold: 1. they know what isn't safe and 2. you used a click.

As for the first part, no matter what you do with your new breaker (outside of discarding it I suppose) much like having installed a new breaker, your opponent now knows which servers are susceptible to access. If that means installing another piece of ice to cover a weak spot, trashing a "useless" piece of ice to decrease install costs of a more useful piece of ice or whatever, the cat's out of the bag. They know you are coming.

As for the second part, the cost of that click means that you limited your ability to actually do much on your turn. Outside of Test Run, you need to spend another click installing your new card, spending more money too. Now your turn is already half over. If you were planning on using your new breaker to get access to a central server, you get to do it at most twice. Even worse, if you have Medium or Nerve Agent already in play, even if your "compromised" the appropriate server, you only get to hit it twice. This also meant that you have your respective virus already installed so your opponent knew what could potentially happen.

So the question arrives, how is the best way to handle the inherent inefficiencies of using (or not using) tutor cards?

The easiest way to avoid relying on searching for the appropriate breaker with a card is to just draw it. You gaining the correct card is a secret now so you can install it as needed. Obviously the problem there is that it is random. You hope you draw the correct card with 2/40 or 3/40 odds (you have an opening hand but at least your odds get better as you draw more cards). You are relying on luck to get the exact card. You can mitigate this loss of efficiency by using draw accelerators (Diesel, Wyldside), but those could take up influence, take up card space and could have a drawback (Wyldside).

As long as your deck has enough tricks (Inside Job, Tinkering, Parasite) you might be able to avoid needing the exact breaker for a little while. This is sort of the solution I've been relying on lately without even thinking about it. Although I really need that breaker, I can sort of made due until I get the right card.

To deal with the lack of efficiency of tutoring for a card, maybe you can use Joshua B. or All-nighter to gain back that click. It might be an expensive solution, but if you really want to exploit that hole while you have it, you might need to resort to cards like these. Both Nerve Agent and Medium get more effective the more counters you have so a 3rd run in a turn could potentially let you see an agenda or two that you wouldn't have been able to see when the corp closes that hole the next turn.

Another solution is to just "play your hand" and make them respond. By this I mean, you could tutor for the breaker you need, install it and gain money. The next turn you plan on just running all four clicks. You and your opponent can both see from the board state that you will be able to just ram that one server as many times as you can. You put the corp under extreme pressure and they need to respond. If they can't your little gamble paid off and without using any tricks (to gain extra clicks) you will be able to exploit that server several times. At worse they now install a piece of ice you can't break and although you were set up you can't use it.

Maybe this is ok? You are more or less "set up" so that when you can get by that new piece of ice you are off to the races! The problem with being setup but not running is that since you never actually ran you didn't get a single access. With the former, you get a couple looks, but they will feel a lot more pressure to block you while the "setup but no access" looks a lot more threatening, but hasn't done anything yet. So, do you just not use them (or heavily avoid using them)? Do you set up and run same turn (albeit to less effect) or do you build up "showing your move" and make them have to respond?
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I have thought about this kind of stuff as well and I'm not sure what the right answer is.

I do know it is a lot of fun to special order a decoder (say) as your last click of a turn, let the Corp install new ICE, and then next turn install that killer you already had in hand and start running.
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William Frank
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Wouldn't that depend on the runner and style? A Shaper Big Rig deck is pretty much saying "I don't care what you have, I'm breaking in," with bonus Tinkering and the like. (Not to mention, a Shaper will probably use Test Run, as you say, which circumvents the "must also install, costs money and clicks" problem...Test Running a Femme Fatale, for example, can be brutal.) But it sounds more that you're thinking of Special Order, or of Anarchs (you mention Medium and Nerve Agent). A Criminal deck might want to use the threat of the icebreaker to either stop the Corp from playing an agenda (keeping it in HQ for a central-server run with Desperado/Sneakdoor) or playing ice on remotes (again, central-server runs, with bonus Inside Jobs perhaps?). And an Anarch, well, they're probably more likely to tutor for viruses with Djinn than anything else.

And that's assuming that the Runner didn't just grab Crypsis, which doesn't care about type.
 
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Luke Josef
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Wait two months and run Self-Modifying Code laugh

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Patrick Jamet
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I think the next pack will contain something like :


Look at the 4th card :
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Peter O
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You bring up some great points about some of the costs of tutors, but I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

The answer to the question, 'install what i already have now or later?' is not what tutoring is about. Sure it's relevant for a turn, but you don't explore the alternative deeply enough. The alternative is how to find that now necessary breaker you're missing. If you only have three, it could be 20 total draws and you still have a small but reasonable chance of NOT getting it. Then the question is how often does that situation come up and is it truly game losing? It's all very deck specific so we can't crunch the math here, but go look for the threads a while back that computed the odds of finding any one card over X number of turns. That sets your frequency of deck failure. Then from your own knowledge of how good your tricks are, how often can your deck get around that? Finally, are you willing to gamble on deck failure at a particular rate because the gains of not running a tutor are so much better for the games where the gamble pays off and the deck works smoother?

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Ben Asher
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I don't think there's always a right answer to this conundrum. As with many things in netrunner, a lot depends on very specific board state. Did you tutor the breaker to get into a specific server? Which one? Do multiple accesses of that server actually help you? Can you afford them anyway?

I will say that I think the giving up of information that takes place by tutoring (or installing programs in general) is worthwhile to get what you need. The difference between special ordering a ninja that you need to break in to server x and waiting to draw it is that you have it now, rather than at some indeterminate time in the future. The corp knows you (presumably) have a killer in your deck and it's a matter of time until you get it. That you have it now versus later is good for you and bad for them. Perhaps this means they no longer play a particular piece of ice that they may have otherwise played, but it also puts the corp into desperation mode.

Once your breaker suite is more or less assembled the corp is really in a dark place. They know you're coming and have to figure out how to stop you. The problem (for them) is that they cannot actually stop you, only slow you down, and the prudent runner knows this and strikes accurately when a legitimate target presents itself. A caveat of this is that this prudent runner also has the resources to do so.

So a tutor for a breaker costs a click and some information transfer, along with a credit in cost. The credit is usually negligible: I think in almost every case having your breaker ready is worth at least a credit. The draw-to-dig for the breaker also costs a click (probably several) and means that along the way you may run into other cards that you have to use sub-optimally or even discard because your rig isn't sufficiently set up to use them (say, maker's eye or stimhack before you can get into your target server).

Also, given that the corp knows you (again, presumably) have a killer in your deck, the situation is fairly rare where you say, 'oh that's a sentry huh? let me drop my surprise ninja and break in!'. It happens occasionally and it is a nice surprise when it does, but in general it's fairly rare with the exception of first turn break-ins where you happened to have that corroder to break into their ice-walled central server. Generally speaking, I prefer to keep my 'surprise breakers' for after some program has been trashed. After trashing one of your breakers, the corp may become over-confident and try to rush an agenda through what now appears to be a safe server. That's when you drop the duplicate you had been carefully not discarding and swoop in for some points.

Anyway, no more long-winded post. I think the benefits of tutoring outweigh the costs.
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The thing about tutors is that there's nobody forcing you to play them if it doesn't seem smart. I can see how running more tutors and less copies of breakers can hurt sometimes, but in general, I'm quite happy running the tutors.

If you're setting up for a Nerve Agent/Medium dig and you think the corp can counter it if you telegraph your intentions, then don't tutor. But if you were running no tutors, 3x breakers, and a lot of card drawing, that's also telegraphing your intention and capabilities when you go about drawing to build your rig. And that's why even with tutors, you still have the option to draw breakers conventionally, but you'll rarely take it.

In short, it's usually better to have the tool you need and have everyone know it than to sometimes have the tool you need, but for only you to know. And when it's not, you still have the option to try to draw into it. The only real drawback to tutoring is that it mostly can't happen on the same turn as a big dig, but that's an inherent drawback to big digs; you can't run 4+ times AND hide your intentions at the same time.
 
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I'm going to keep this simple as I get TL;DR a lot.

1) Why play a tutor for a breaker without knowing that you need to break it? Scenario A) You only run Crypsis or AI breakers, so why not. B) You are gunning for a full rig ASAP. In either case then it doesn't matter.

2) If you run on your first click (preparing for it last turn), you could run + encounter + ETR, tutor, play, run again, with your four clicks if you want to get in.

3) If you KNOW or guess very well what the opposition ICE is, you can tutor and run. But that's not reliable. But could possibly be the right play (e.g. tutoring for your barrier breaker when the corp leaves 1 or 2 creds free with 1 unrezzed ICE and you have no barrier breaker yet. Yes it could be a Chimera if he's at 2 creds, but it's a risk.)

4) Wait till you draw into breakers before filling out your set with a tutor. Nothing's worse than spending all your money and clicks special ordering something first before running, then run to see you got the wrong breaker.
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Peter O
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Don't forget the cases where the first copy of a breaker has been trashed somehow. It's meta dependent on how often this comes up (early Snare hit), but finding the backup quickly can be significant in many games.

 
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Frank Brooks
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Thanks for the great replies everybody!

I still feel that it is good (at least for my deck) to spend most of the time trying to draw into my breakers (since I draw other goodies along the way) and also have a few tutors for any of those I "need" for whatever reason.

The main thought behind this thread was really the case of Nerve Agent/Medium (which is something you can do in any faction although easier in Anarch due to the small influence cost). I kind of got distracted with the discussion for when to use tutors on a general "fleshing out your breakers" sense or in an attempt to break into a remote to steal/trash whatever is in there. The "real" question I had was the consequences of tutoring for breakers when combining them in a "big dig" sense.

So with that in mind, when is it better to "reveal your hand" and setup vs. just squeeze in that one or two runs?
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William Frank
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BoShek wrote:
So with that in mind, when is it better to "reveal your hand" and setup vs. just squeeze in that one or two runs?


Generally speaking, I think Runners need to worry less about revealing their hands. It's part of the asymmetrical design--Runners play open, with cards going on the table face up, while Corps play closed, only turning cards face up when they do something with them (rez or score). The Runner knowing what the Corp has is of substantially greater game importance than vice versa.
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BoShek wrote:
The "real" question I had was the consequences of tutoring for breakers when combining them in a "big dig" sense.

So with that in mind, when is it better to "reveal your hand" and setup vs. just squeeze in that one or two runs?


Well that does change things. But when you're building for big dig, it's pretty difficult to hide your intentions... There are so many pieces in play needed for it to work! But it does depend on your rig, and the board situation.

Generally, it's hard to hide that you want to run a few times in a row on R&D. You can either have Mediums out, and drill at it slowly, or you can have all your breakers out, and drop mediums in quick succession.


One time I had 2 mediums, a datasucker and a corroder out. In my hand was two test runs. I know my opponent dropped a lone archer in front of R&D (it was a weird game, he was short on ICE, I was attacking remote via parasites etc).

Oh I had a Joshua, so I took an extra turn, test ran for my lone femme in the trash (discarded the previous turn from having 7 cards... Discarded 2 cards to disguise discarding Femme He never asked, I never told...), test ran another Medium, trashed some programs, because I had no extra mem.

I had on the table a Femme, and 3 Mediums I forced him to rez archer, and ran 3 times. Third time I accessed 10 cards. Total I think it was like 14 cards. Good times
 
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Ben Asher
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BoShek wrote:
So with that in mind, when is it better to "reveal your hand" and setup vs. just squeeze in that one or two runs?

I think it's pretty safe to say that it's better to reveal your hand and set up if that's going to get you more runs, more quickly. Obviously you lose two clicks on the turn you describe, and thus only get two runs that turn. But how many successful runs will you get the next, and the following, and so on based on having your full rig (or whatever missing piece you tutored for) vs. not having that(those) piece(s)? If you'll get in more frequently and more reliably without tutoring (I don't see this being the case often) then don't tutor. If you'll get in more times with the tutor, then tutor.

With the big dig plan, your prime objective is get as many accesses as you can. This means each run needs to be affordable. Likely that means you need to have most (if not all) of some kind of rig assembled. Also most likely, you've already telegraphed your intent to do this sort of thing by other plays along the way.
 
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Spyder Murphy
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tranenturm wrote:
The alternative is how to find that now necessary breaker you're missing. If you only have three, it could be 20 total draws and you still have a small but reasonable chance of NOT getting it. Then the question is how often does that situation come up and is it truly game losing? It's all very deck specific so we can't crunch the math here, but go look for the threads a while back that computed the odds of finding any one card over X number of turns. That sets your frequency of deck failure. Then from your own knowledge of how good your tricks are, how often can your deck get around that? Finally, are you willing to gamble on deck failure at a particular rate because the gains of not running a tutor are so much better for the games where the gamble pays off and the deck works smoother?
This is actually very close to mind due to a game I had last night.

Playing Chaos Theory (Gluten for punishment) and on turn 4 I needed a Sentry breaker, so I spent the next 4 turns drawing cards in an attempt to get a Sentry breaker (of 4) or Test Run (3), before losing the game. After which my opponent pretty much called me a N00b for not also running Special Order, refusing to believe that it was just shear bad luck that all 7 cards were in the bottom 15 of the deck.
 
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David Jensen
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Interesting additional comments. I was prepped to simply say,
Click 1: Tutor
Click 2: Install
Click 3: Run

But with the use of big digs its a little bit more tricky.

The key to doing this is to maintain constant threat on more than the target dig. Whether its a second central or a remote. Doing that then you begin to creep in an additional threat (or refocus back to your primary dig target).

The real way to maximize your threat however, is to be patient and pull out your combo the very turn before you plan to pull it off. This timing is critical - you'll want to make sure your opponent is low on credits or about to score a critical agenda. This forces your opponent to make some decisions. Prevent the up coming major threat or score what I already have installed. In either situation the Runner - if he's maintained the threat - should be able to then react to whatever the Corps has chosen.

These are very critical moments in Netrunner. Runner makes a threat, Corps reacts then Runner creates one additional threat, Corps reacts - Runners chooses which threat provides the most return. I believe this type of threat occurs multiple times with some deck designs and in others may be a one time opportunity (big dig medium / account siphons etc).

Looking forward to your tournament report.
 
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In response to your "big dig" (deep mining operation, as I call it) question, I have found distraction to be the most effective tactic. Play your hand, make it clear you are ready to delve and then...do something else. Throw the Corp by focusing elsewhere, do something that doesn't entirely make sense. There are a plethora of cards that let you make sudden and important changes to the Corp's game plan. Use these, then delve.
 
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I think that as long as you can do this without actually interrupting your own game plan, the distraction technique suggested above is ALWAYS a good idea. The runner nearly always benefits from the corp being off-balance. Doing something you're not expected to do creates opportunities for you to exploit. The primary limitation on this is that there are only so many things you can actually do.
 
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Peter O
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Shockwave IIC wrote:


Playing Chaos Theory (Gluten for punishment)


I didn't know she aggravates wheat sensitivities. You learn something new every day!

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Frank Brooks
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beelzeben wrote:
I think that as long as you can do this without actually interrupting your own game plan, the distraction technique suggested above is ALWAYS a good idea. The runner nearly always benefits from the corp being off-balance. Doing something you're not expected to do creates opportunities for you to exploit. The primary limitation on this is that there are only so many things you can actually do.


Yeah I mean you can set and up...run a remote server instead; what a surprise! If you have the appropriate breaker for the one rezzed piece of ice over HQ and Nerve Agent installed they know what is about to happen no matter how much hand waving and "distractions" you can throw out there. The closet thing I could think of would be to have what you need as above, then do a Maker's Eye. The corp has to decide which is more important.

Best case you have both Medium and Nerve Agent and the right breakers for both servers. This way they are forced to block the one they don't want you to run (which you still might run anyway). This is relatively difficult to do all this and actually have enough money to run x4. When it happens, things are going great for you, but that's about it.
 
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Peter O
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BoShek wrote:
Thanks for the great replies everybody!

I still feel that it is good (at least for my deck) to spend most of the time trying to draw into my breakers (since I draw other goodies along the way) and also have a few tutors for any of those I "need" for whatever reason.

The main thought behind this thread was really the case of Nerve Agent/Medium (which is something you can do in any faction although easier in Anarch due to the small influence cost). I kind of got distracted with the discussion for when to use tutors on a general "fleshing out your breakers" sense or in an attempt to break into a remote to steal/trash whatever is in there. The "real" question I had was the consequences of tutoring for breakers when combining them in a "big dig" sense.

So with that in mind, when is it better to "reveal your hand" and setup vs. just squeeze in that one or two runs?


Gotcha!

So, you're worried about telegraphing your play. I see telegraphing breakers as the lesser worry. The corp pretty much expects the runner to have a full breaker suite in the deck and assemble it at some point. I see a few situations (pretty much the ones you mentioned) where something s being given away. However, the majority of times the corp knowing you have an icebreaker won't change their play THAT much. Even then, you can still get 2 runs in instead of 3. You have a pretty sizable cash pot (or VERY efficient running) if you can do three runs after installing a new breaker.

The bigger questions is your viruses. There I'd say what someone else did, hold off giving knowledge about those for as long as possible, as knowing you're interested in R&D in a criminal deck is a significant piece of knowledge.

So breakers, don't worry overly much, they expect you to have them anyway.

For Medium and Nerve Agent, delay as much as possible unless its clear from other means you will be attacking a particular server (e.g. Noise always seems to run at least 1 medium, so its not much of a surprise when you play it).

 
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Ben Asher
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BoShek wrote:
beelzeben wrote:
I think that as long as you can do this without actually interrupting your own game plan, the distraction technique suggested above is ALWAYS a good idea. The runner nearly always benefits from the corp being off-balance. Doing something you're not expected to do creates opportunities for you to exploit. The primary limitation on this is that there are only so many things you can actually do.


Yeah I mean you can set and up...run a remote server instead; what a surprise! If you have the appropriate breaker for the one rezzed piece of ice over HQ and Nerve Agent installed they know what is about to happen no matter how much hand waving and "distractions" you can throw out there. The closet thing I could think of would be to have what you need as above, then do a Maker's Eye. The corp has to decide which is more important.

Best case you have both Medium and Nerve Agent and the right breakers for both servers. This way they are forced to block the one they don't want you to run (which you still might run anyway). This is relatively difficult to do all this and actually have enough money to run x4. When it happens, things are going great for you, but that's about it.

I was again breaking away from the very narrow case of big digging, and speaking generally: Doing what the corp doesn't expect you to do makes it harder for them to prepare. No, running the remote is not going to be better for you than a successful big dig run (unless it contains an agenda..) but that really wasn't my point.
 
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Spyder Murphy
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tranenturm wrote:
Shockwave IIC wrote:


Playing Chaos Theory (Gluten for punishment)


I didn't know she aggravates wheat sensitivities. You learn something new every day!

LOL, It didn't look right when I typed it, but because firefox didn't underlined I assumed I was mistaken.
 
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Frank Brooks
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Thanks!

That's a good point. Having breakers is an everyday thing. You and the corp know you will probably put out breakers at some point and they probably won't immediately replace "bad" ice as soon as you tutor for or install a breaker unless they are sitting on lots of ice. It does feel that the Medium/Nerve Agent install should probably hold off until after you know you can make it in. i.e. Install, run, run, run. Not so much run (finding out you can get passed whatever), install, run, run. Just take that knowledge and wait until next turn then rush.

Sometimes you find you had that card in your opening hand and have the opportunity (like you example Medium in Criminal). They ice up both HQ and Archives. Might as well install, run, run, run. Once you can't get in anymore it is out in the open that you have a Medium and aren't afraid to use it. Now you are in that situation of either tutor, install, run, run, or tutor, install, other actions. Next turn runx4. It does feel like you should squeeze out as many runs as possible (so choose first choice), but at the same time, the potential number of cards accessed may be higher with option two. Press your luck or not? Either way (especially in Criminal) you can't keep up the running every click probably so you will have to take a breather after a turn or so of repeated runs.
 
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Magnus Benzein
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I think this is very dependant on matchups, but generally I think the extra cost of using tutors generally is a bigger problem than the information disadvantage. Alot of information disadvantage also comes from bad play. Also information disadvantage depends on the breaker you tutored for, it's very low for Crypsis but high for Yog.

With that said, if you don't give up too much tempo then tutoring for a sentrybreaker tend to be a good thing (especially against Jinteki, but also others that you think run Rototurret and you got programs out). Against Weyland I might go for blind barrierbreakers depending on what I have seen from my opponents deck. Also crimdecks that run few breakers tend to need tutors to make up for limited carddraw. Test run is kind of a special case since you usually run those to make sure you get early opus, don't cost a click first turn and got some great interaction with especially femme fatale.

 
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