Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
19 Posts

Burning Suns» Forums » General

Subject: Why I have not kickstarted this yet. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Joseph Courtight
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some Background

For me the greatest games were always epic in every way and space is always the best because it is not constrained by historical accuracy. Since, I do not get to play these games as often as I would like I am hesitant to invest in more than one. It almost has to call me in to it and first impressions are the key.

I desire a game that deeply involves me into its world, but above all it needs to be fun.

On top of all of that I need something I could actually get to the gamming table. Catan and Ca$h and Gun$ are some of my favorite games not because I like them the most, but they are easy to get other to play.

Immediately this ruled out Twilight Imperium, because although I really like the idea, I know I would never play it.

The next epic space game to appear on my radar was Eclipse. I instantly understood the rules of Eclipse and seeing its epic scope preordered it. I both love and enjoy the economic and technological parts of the game as I feel the nonlinear tech tree is beautiful in a geeky nerdy way. Unfortunately, while everyone I played it with has enjoyed Eclipse, it has left an empty feeling when it comes to intrigue. Diplomacy and Subterfuge are nearly nonexistent in Eclipse.

Later in my life, I saw the kickstarter page for Empires of the Void. Ironically although the rules are simpler than Eclipse it took me a bit of research to figure them out. I think it is a difference in rule book writing. I chose not to kickstart it as by know my gamming group was into Eclipse enough that I do not think they'd welcome the change. While I felt that this game probably has more theme than Eclipse the strategies were limited. Furthermore, I also worry (probably unfairly) that the game relies too much on events. Without knowing what type of events, how random and how varied they were I was slightly scarred of it.

Finally, the game Space Empires and Galactic Emperor made themselves known to me. Well, honestly I see them as war games. I have nothing against war games (I love strike of the Eagle), but they just are not what I was looking for.

On to why I hesitate on the kickstarter


-I was attracted to Burning Suns by the great artwork and theme, but so far that is all I really see. I also must give you credit for introducing subterfuge and would like to see some traitors and assassination. For now Block war games and dune/rex are the only ones to truly show the importance of proper intelligence. Something I hope your game could change.

-You have a rule book, but it is incomplete and I find it incapable of explaining the game to me without example of play. I personally feel this should have been taken care of already. I also view this rulebook as a evidence that your business plan may not be the best. Though this is a poor assumption, it makes me think you are unorganized.

-As with my fear of the event driven game. Not knowing what type of events/missions makes me cautious as I believe those can make or break a game.

-I have no real impression of how this game actually flows.

-I have this problem with dice, not really using them, using them for everything. This has absolutely nothing to do with randomness I fear what I will call modifier overkill.

-You display no opinions from people, who are not directly involved with this games creation.

-I do feel that Burning Suns could scratch my Epic itch, and I do want to believe in it. I would like to see a review from outside your group and/or an example of game play.

Final Notes:

Till I see proof that this game could be the one, I will hold my money for that game, even if I have to design it myself.

In conclusion I want a review and/or a game play examples. After that I maybe will fund it.

To see some positive points go to http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/961983/why-you-should-consid...
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Ry
United States
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Personally, the game looks great from the concepts that Ive seen.
But for the components that are currently included, $100 is expensive.
Overly so.
Thats whats holding me back.
Cost= Components and gameplay / rules examples.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Courtight
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I really want this game to be good, I'm just not yet convinced.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
matt way
United States
dallas
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Valid points, but the designer is out on military manuevers this week.

I have also noticed that it seems to be a rule in kickstarters NOT to include all the information at the start of the campaign. This allows for constant revelations throughout the campaign. He is actually ahead of most campaigns by having the rules up so quickly.

Poliorcetes
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
If it's any consolation I'm will hopefully be able to play the prototype 3, 4 times on Saturday the 20th. I'll write as extensive a review as possible.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
Dalek5 wrote:
...
On to why I hesitate on the kickstarter

...For now Block war games and dune/rex are the only ones to truly show the importance of proper intelligence. Something I hope your game could change.

-You have a rule book, but it is incomplete...

-As with my fear of the event driven game...

-I have no real impression of how this game actually flows.

-I have this problem with dice, not really using them, using them for everything. This has absolutely nothing to do with randomness I fear what I will call modifier overkill.

-You display no opinions from people, who are not directly involved with this games creation.

-I do feel that Burning Suns could scratch my Epic itch, and I do want to believe in it. I would like to see a review from outside your group and/or an example of game play.

...

Block wargames are the only games that can represent the unknown to that extent. It's their defining feature. It feels to me, almost as saying: 'I like Android:Netrunner because I can carry it in a backpack, why can't I do the same with a grandiose wargame?'
It's simply a feature of that type of game.

The rulebook is incomplete because Emil put it together ASAP so people who wanted to see the very first draft released to the public could get a very rough feel for the game's components and how a turn will look like.
If you read it, you'll know that the action sequence isn't always the same, you'd know that events are optional (which answers your last question) you'll see that players take turns at a faster pace than the usual I-go-you-go games, because of the worker placement part of the leaders on the action boards. You'll know that there is a rock/paper/scissors aspect to taking planets and that colonization leaves you vulnerable to warfaring nations and the hostile route leaves you susceptible to sabotage and revolutions. You'll see the simplified economy as opposed to the fiddling with population cubes and other different forms of economic units in most other space games.

That's not bad a rough draft with hardly any illustrations in it. I'm not saying it's good, but that it seems indicative of a lot of things about how the game can be expected to flow. Whether that is one's style is a completely different matter.

I thought about all the dice rolling as well and all the modifiers you need to look up on your player display whenever you do anything. It's not something that appeals to me immediately and could be a flow-killer, but as I stated above, I'll hopefully be able to playtest/try out the game for 6 hours or so on a Saturday and I'll leave a review as brutally honest as I can.

The game didn't come out in public testing until recently, if I recall correctly. It was mere hours after people who didn't playtest the game, tried it for the first time at a festival at home, that the kickstarter page was updated with their very short, but very enthusiastic comments. How much they've been edited, I don't know. I'll get back to you all on Sunday the 21st. Okay
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Luis Fernandez
Venezuela
Caracas
Miranda
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
in the end it is an endeavour! you have to launch to the adventure of seem triumph or not.

By my side i love 4X space games, this game seem good enough, and i would buy it just because i love the components, and i have to figure out if the rules are good (or adequate to your expectations, or beyond that whistle)

With kickstarter many information is on the run, and since is developing maybe you can´t find all, that´s a part of consumer culture, maybe you should wait for the commercial release of the game but mind some regret about not kickstarter it shake
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Becha Mel
France
Bordeaux
flag msg tools
mbmb
ropya wrote:
Personally, the game looks great from the concepts that Ive seen.
But for the components that are currently included, $100 is expensive.
Overly so.
Thats whats holding me back.
Cost= Components and gameplay / rules examples.


Please keep in mind that shipping is also enclosed in the pledge price. Being an European backer, the pledge is always increased by 25 to 40 Dols.
So, I don't find that the 100 dols you're talking about are too much.

See ya
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emil Larsen
Denmark
Faxe
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi Joseph,

Interesting thoughts, I'm always keen on hearing people's thoughts on my campaign, game and so on.

I'll try to go through some of the points that you bring up, and try to go around those that has already been pointed out by others.

Quote:
I also view this rulebook as a evidence that your business plan may not be the best. Though this is a poor assumption, it makes me think you are unorganized.

You're drawing a parallel between my business plan and my rulebook/layout of rulebook - I don't see the connection?
The rulebook isn't finished - Because in my world the rulebook is the very last thing to be converted into PDF before the production starts.

Unorgnanized - based on my rulebook not being in production state yet? Or based on me keeping track of 10 people on my day job, expanding that to over 130 persons during exercises?
Most people tell me my campaign is slick, well organized and very well held together by informations cut into easy to grasp sections.

Quote:
-I have this problem with dice, not really using them, using them for everything. This has absolutely nothing to do with randomness I fear what I will call modifier overkill.

I don't understand, I think you have to rephrase that for me.

Quote:
-You display no opinions from people, who are not directly involved with this games creation.

Well, I wrote what people said to me during and after play testing. Of course I have no proof of that. Buying a preview from Tom Vasel, doesn't really present anything different in regard of proofs, it's paid.
Hopefully I can get some independent reviews from people play testing my game.

Thank you Joseph for keeping an eye on my project and sharing your thoughts, I hope you'll stay alert, I'll have more time answering questions, now that I'm not on any exercises the next 30 days

PS: A little status update; I've reworked the stretch goals, all based upon the voices raise from my backers. They are the reason why I can even go this far with the game.

Have a good day,
Best regards Emil
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J Ry
United States
Florida
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
If nothing else, thank you for posting here.
Best of luck in your endeavor.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph Courtight
United States
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Please do not misunderstand me. There are things I like about your campaign; otherwise I never would have commented on it
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
Wow, getting the uniques at 33.5K is crazy! The game's already trending towards that
Meaning, as things look currently we're getting the Colossus! (and titan and starbase, but apparently I have a-d4-on-stalker-legs shaped hole in my gaming collection).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Emil Larsen
Denmark
Faxe
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
#J.R.
I'll do my best - thank you

#Joseph
Thanks, and I do appreciate you taking your time to give me feedback. That's all I have - in order to make things better... the feedback from my backers, and of course potential backers.

#Frederik
Hehe, that's also what I'm hoping for... I want a colossus too!

On with the work before bedtime...
Best regards Emil
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Troels Rohde Hansen
Denmark
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
-I have no real impression of how this game actually flows.

Fast and smooth, with little downtime. You do your worker(leader) placement, this shapes the upcoming turn, a little like when people pick their roles in TI3, except that here every action in the upcoming turn is presented, but its details, only known by its owner.

-You display no opinions from people, who are not directly involved with this games creation.

I am not helping create it. I think Emil is more or less alone in this. I hae however met Emil at 2 conventions, and I played a couple of rounds at one con.

It looks amazing and is thrilling to play.


About the rulebook, I know Emil has studied several ways of making rules, and is dedicated to make the best possibly rules design, relying on lots of examples. He could possibly explain you the game without, but it is his belief that it is better with examples. As noted somewhere, Emil works with education in the Danish Army.

I so want to see this game on my shelf. I just know it will see alot more play time than TI3. I really like TI3 and play it once a year. I like Eclipse too, but it tends to get fidly.

I really tired of worker placement games - but this brings something new to the table.


...Troels
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Beyer
Denmark
Copenhagen
flag msg tools
more.
badge
Avatar
I've posted a loooooong overview of the prototype game (not a review, overview) in the review section, but apparently my stuff needs to be moderated before I get to post anything in reviews so start mashing F5 and hope for the best.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Rubinstein

Long Beach
California
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Emilarsen wrote:
Buying a preview from Tom Vasel, doesn't really present anything different in regard of proofs, it's paid.


True, it's paid, but he still gives a great explanation of how the game plays, feels, and he has the experience to compare/contrast with other games. A preview with a reviewer/blogger I follow would make me kickstart this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Hawkins
United Kingdom
Willingham
Cambridgeshire
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I've been tempted to back Burning Suns but have not and probably will not.

Things that attract me to the game:
Fantastic art
European so postage is affordable
Building the map with variously sized circles is fantastic
Nice mixture of thematic mechanisms

Things that put me off the game:
Even at (only) 40mins/player it's a bit too long (maybe 4X is not for me)
There was very little information on the GAME for most of the Kickstarter campaign (although lots of art from day 1)
To me it seems the game was possibly launched too soon and could do with more development, both in tuning the game mechanics and enhancing some of the play aids.

I'm ambivalent on the subject of paid previews, normally the previewer gives a very enthusiastic view of the game and is not particularly objective. However it can be one way to get a good explanation of the game mechanics done in American English (not my first choice but accepting that the USA is the major market for most board games).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bartosz Popow
Poland
Gdynia
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Neither Tom Vasel nor Ryan Metzler give opinions while doing previews - they are just presenting the game. Unlike for instance Undead Viking.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.