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Subject: Handful of Rules questions now that I have the game in hand rss

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brian
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Rules are pretty straight forward but lack clarity in some key areas.

1) In regards to an empty discard pile, when do you shuffle? rules are contradictory here - telling you to reshuffle as soon as it is empty (in the intro) but then implying later (p. 5 under Draw+1) that you shuffle when you need to draw (which is the "standard way" to do it).

2) Reeds - where does the removed card go? Is it out of the game or back to the supply. Again, standard approach says out of the game but there is no indication either way that I can see. Fatigue cards clearly go back to the Supply (at least when you play 3 in a turn).

3) Eagle cards - when countering this, does the current player lose his ability to look at cards completely or can he direct towards another player? With the other "attack" cards, only those playing a countering card are immune, those not playing are still affected. So can this attack be re-directed?

4) Jumping - what is the rational behind not using two Double Swim cards to be able to jump the waterfall? The rule seems clear you can't (for whatever reason) under the Jumping section. But later on under Double Swim cards (p. 5) it indicates that a single card can't be used to make the Jump, which makes perfect sense. So I am wondering if the initial reference is a mistake and 2 Double Swim let you jump while 1 Double Jump does not. That makes the most sense.

5) With the extra cards that come in the 5-player expansion, is it OK to add these cards in even with less than 5 players? Or should we remove them if 4 or less are playing? Are there any adjustments with less than 4 players?

6) Grizzly Bears - since 3 came with the 5-player expansion (or fisherman, whichever) and 3 came as part of the KS exclusive/limited deck, how many go in the game? All 6 or just 3? Or is it dependent on the number of players?

7) Now that we have The Fork/Cataract Falls board, it is possible in the long and marathon games to have 7 bears out. We only have 6 figures. How do we determine which one doesn't get it if all 7 show up in a game?

8) From another thread: Can you move only 1 space with a Double Swim? What if you only have 1 space to go before hitting an obstacle? Do you move 1 and then stop or not move at all? What if you are only 1 hex away from the Spawning ground?
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Jonathan Chaffer
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All good questions. I want to add to this one:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
4) Jumping - what is the rational behind not using two Double Swim cards to be able to jump the waterfall? The rule seems clear you can't (for whatever reason) under the Jumping section. But later on under Double Swim cards (p. 5) it indicates that a single card can't be used to make the Jump, which makes perfect sense. So I am wondering if the initial reference is a mistake and 2 Double Swim let you jump while 1 Double Jump does not. That makes the most sense.


The prohibition against two Double Swim cards to jump does seem strange, if a Double Swim can be combined with a Swim to jump, as the rules state. In addition to this, though, I'm unclear about the specifics if you do make this combination play. Does the Double Swim act like a regular Swim in this case, or does it still move the salmon two spaces plus the one for the regular swim? Is there any restriction on the positioning of the salmon relative to the waterfall in order to do this? I ask because if the combo play moves you three spaces, that opens up a lot of possibilities other than the examples illustrated in the rule book.

If it weren't for the rule against using two Double Swims, it seems the Jumping rules could be rephrased as: "You cannot end your turn on a Waterfall hex. If you play a card that moves you to a Waterfall hex, you must play another card to move beyond it and add an extra Fatigue card to your discard pile." Other than the fact that bears don't affect you when jumping, and the rule against two Double Swims, is this an equivalent way to state the rule?
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brian
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My thought was that you are paying the penalty of 2 cards to move two spaces. So you can pay 2 Swim or 1 Double and 1 Swim to accomplish this, still only going the 2 spaces.

It seems the restriction was more to say that 2 spaces can't be moved by just a single Double swim as they are looking for the sacrifice of a 2nd card, not the actual hexes that can be moved on the cards.

But that is why the restriction on 2 Double cards doesn't make sense. Unless it is like you suggest and a Single plus double actually does move you 3 hexes total and they didn't want you to move 4 hexes total by playing 2 Doubles.

Seems Jesse is answering some of the other questions. Hopefully he makes it here. I'd like to get this on the table tonight if we can finish up taxes!
 
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Jesse Catron
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
Rules are pretty straight forward but lack clarity in some key areas.

1) In regards to an empty discard pile, when do you shuffle? rules are contradictory here - telling you to reshuffle as soon as it is empty (in the intro) but then implying later (p. 5 under Draw+1) that you shuffle when you need to draw (which is the "standard way" to do it).

2) Reeds - where does the removed card go? Is it out of the game or back to the supply. Again, standard approach says out of the game but there is no indication either way that I can see. Fatigue cards clearly go back to the Supply (at least when you play 3 in a turn).
?[/b]


1. Reshuffle when it's empty. Not sure it effectively makes much difference, a player is never denied a card they need to draw if the draw pile runs out.

2. Back into the supply. Also, you don't have to play 3 fatigues to return one. The rule is if you ONLY play fatigues, one of them is returned. So you could play 1, 2 or 3 fatigues on your turn to return one of them (if you play no other cards)
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Jesse Catron
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[q="ColtsFan76"]Rules are pretty straight forward but lack clarity in some key areas.


3) Eagle cards - when countering this, does the current player lose his ability to look at cards completely or can he direct towards another player? With the other "attack" cards, only those playing a countering card are immune, those not playing are still affected. So can this attack be re-directed?

3. A countered eagle is not redirected. Unlike the rapids and current that affect all players the eagle is a player specific "attack" and is completely countered by the target's countering eagle.
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Jesse Catron
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Sorry this is slow tying on my phone at work

5. It's ok to just add them. No adjustments are needed.

6. All 6 is fine. It isn't likely you will use them all but if you do that would be an epic bear melee!

7. Either have all players agree ahead of time or randomly select (you may need a d8 with the new boards!)

8. I believe I answered this on the other thread . You must move the full amount or not at all. One must jump into the spawning pond so you could combine a swim and a double swim to jump in.
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brian
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drktron wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Rules are pretty straight forward but lack clarity in some key areas.

1) In regards to an empty discard pile, when do you shuffle? rules are contradictory here - telling you to reshuffle as soon as it is empty (in the intro) but then implying later (p. 5 under Draw+1) that you shuffle when you need to draw (which is the "standard way" to do it).


1. Reshuffle when it's empty. Not sure it effectively makes much difference, a player is never denied a card they need to draw if the draw pile runs out.

It actually does make a difference and is a point of discussion in almost all deckbuilders. If I only shuffle when I need to draw, then I can still accumulate "better" cards while my deck is empty. Then when I go to shuffle, those will be in the mix. So it is an answer that deserves a bit of thought.
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brian
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drktron wrote:
Sorry this is slow tying on my phone at work

5. It's ok to just add them. No adjustments are needed.

6. All 6 is fine. It isn't likely you will use them all but if you do that would be an epic bear melee!

7. Either have all players agree ahead of time or randomly select (you may need a d8 with the new boards!)

8. I believe I answered this on the other thread . You must move the full amount or not at all. One must jump into the spawning pond so you could combine a swim and a double swim to jump in.

Thanks for the answers. The movement was answered on the other thread. The one question left off here is #4 which involves jumping.
 
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brian
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drktron wrote:
Sorry this is slow tying on my phone at work

5. It's ok to just add them. No adjustments are needed.

6. All 6 is fine. It isn't likely you will use them all but if you do that would be an epic bear melee!

7. Either have all players agree ahead of time or randomly select (you may need a d8 with the new boards!)

8. I believe I answered this on the other thread . You must move the full amount or not at all. One must jump into the spawning pond so you could combine a swim and a double swim to jump in.

Thanks for the answers. The movement was answered on the other thread. The one question left off here is #4 which involves jumping.
 
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Jesse Catron
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I stand corrected and see your point. I don't want to contradict my own rule book so I will better reply when I have one in hand.
 
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Jesse Catron
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
drktron wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Rules are pretty straight forward but lack clarity in some key areas.

1) In regards to an empty discard pile, when do you shuffle? rules are contradictory here - telling you to reshuffle as soon as it is empty (in the intro) but then implying later (p. 5 under Draw+1) that you shuffle when you need to draw (which is the "standard way" to do it).


1. Reshuffle when it's empty. Not sure it effectively makes much difference, a player is never denied a card they need to draw if the draw pile runs out.

It actually does make a difference and is a point of discussion in almost all deckbuilders. If I only shuffle when I need to draw, then I can still accumulate "better" cards while my deck is empty. Then when I go to shuffle, those will be in the mix. So it is an answer that deserves a bit of thought.


I get your point but the rules state that you shuffle when your draw deck is empty.
 
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brian
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drktron wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
drktron wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Rules are pretty straight forward but lack clarity in some key areas.

1) In regards to an empty discard pile, when do you shuffle? rules are contradictory here - telling you to reshuffle as soon as it is empty (in the intro) but then implying later (p. 5 under Draw+1) that you shuffle when you need to draw (which is the "standard way" to do it).


1. Reshuffle when it's empty. Not sure it effectively makes much difference, a player is never denied a card they need to draw if the draw pile runs out.

It actually does make a difference and is a point of discussion in almost all deckbuilders. If I only shuffle when I need to draw, then I can still accumulate "better" cards while my deck is empty. Then when I go to shuffle, those will be in the mix. So it is an answer that deserves a bit of thought.


I get your point but the rules state that you shuffle when your draw deck is empty.

They actually say it both ways! This the point about them being contradictory.
 
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Jesse Catron
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
My thought was that you are paying the penalty of 2 cards to move two spaces. So you can pay 2 Swim or 1 Double and 1 Swim to accomplish this, still only going the 2 spaces.

It seems the restriction was more to say that 2 spaces can't be moved by just a single Double swim as they are looking for the sacrifice of a 2nd card, not the actual hexes that can be moved on the cards.

But that is why the restriction on 2 Double cards doesn't make sense. Unless it is like you suggest and a Single plus double actually does move you 3 hexes total and they didn't want you to move 4 hexes total by playing 2 Doubles.

Seems Jesse is answering some of the other questions. Hopefully he makes it here. I'd like to get this on the table tonight if we can finish up taxes!


Okay to address jumping with a double swim. If you combine a double swim and a regular swim to jump you move 3 hexes and take a fatigue. You cannot use a double swim by itself to jump (jumping requires 2 cards played together).

As far as the rule prohibiting 2 double swims to jump: That is a rule that was in the rulebook to prevent the double swim from being overpowered and allowing 4 hex movement over a waterfall. I thought the rule was dropped for the final version and as you can see it is not in the online downloadable version of the rules. I believe its inclusion is an error.
 
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Mike Malley
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Regarding the Reeds- if you remove color-coded swim cards, do they go into the supply as well?

BTW, am i reading the rules correctly that due to Eagle and Grizzly cards that it's possible to have a null turn, since you don't draw cards until the end?
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Jesse Catron
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
drktron wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
drktron wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Rules are pretty straight forward but lack clarity in some key areas.

1) In regards to an empty discard pile, when do you shuffle? rules are contradictory here - telling you to reshuffle as soon as it is empty (in the intro) but then implying later (p. 5 under Draw+1) that you shuffle when you need to draw (which is the "standard way" to do it).


1. Reshuffle when it's empty. Not sure it effectively makes much difference, a player is never denied a card they need to draw if the draw pile runs out.

It actually does make a difference and is a point of discussion in almost all deckbuilders. If I only shuffle when I need to draw, then I can still accumulate "better" cards while my deck is empty. Then when I go to shuffle, those will be in the mix. So it is an answer that deserves a bit of thought.


I get your point but the rules state that you shuffle when your draw deck is empty.

They actually say it both ways! This the point about them being contradictory.


The activation of the Draw+1 space may trigger your draw pile to become empty (if you only had one card to draw at the time you entered the Draw+1 hex), at which point the shuffle rule takes effect because your draw deck is empty.
 
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Jesse Catron
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caffeinehead wrote:
Regarding the Reeds- if you remove color-coded swim cards, do they go into the supply as well?

BTW, am i reading the rules correctly that due to Eagle and Grizzly cards that it's possible to have a null turn, since you don't draw cards until the end?


1. Yes they go into the supply

2. Yes its possible
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Mike Malley
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Based on the wording of the jumping paragraph, i'm not sure how you'd know that combining a Double Swim and a Swim card lets you move three spaces since it clearly reads that "[w]ith a jump, you immediately move the salmon to the second hex, skipping the first."
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Jesse Catron
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caffeinehead wrote:
Based on the wording of the jumping paragraph, i'm not sure how you'd know that combining a Double Swim and a Swim card lets you move three spaces since it clearly reads that "[w]ith a jump, you immediately move the salmon to the second hex, skipping the first."


Obviously that should have been more clear and perhaps an example given

 
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Andrés Pérez
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drktron wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
My thought was that you are paying the penalty of 2 cards to move two spaces. So you can pay 2 Swim or 1 Double and 1 Swim to accomplish this, still only going the 2 spaces.

It seems the restriction was more to say that 2 spaces can't be moved by just a single Double swim as they are looking for the sacrifice of a 2nd card, not the actual hexes that can be moved on the cards.

But that is why the restriction on 2 Double cards doesn't make sense. Unless it is like you suggest and a Single plus double actually does move you 3 hexes total and they didn't want you to move 4 hexes total by playing 2 Doubles.

Seems Jesse is answering some of the other questions. Hopefully he makes it here. I'd like to get this on the table tonight if we can finish up taxes!


Okay to address jumping with a double swim. If you combine a double swim and a regular swim to jump you move 3 hexes and take a fatigue. You cannot use a double swim by itself to jump (jumping requires 2 cards played together).

As far as the rule prohibiting 2 double swims to jump: That is a rule that was in the rulebook to prevent the double swim from being overpowered and allowing 4 hex movement over a waterfall. I thought the rule was dropped for the final version and as you can see it is not in the online downloadable version of the rules. I believe its inclusion is an error.

So, then, based on the above, not only can you play two double swims to jump, but they'll move you 4 hexes?
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Phil
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And I'm assuming that playing a double and single swim to jump still has the same restrictions in that you have to be able to move into the resulting hex to be able to move at all, otherwise you're just playing those cards to discard them from your hand.
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brian
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So really, all a jump boils down to is you must use two swim cards to get over it and take a fatigue.
 
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brian
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drktron wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
They actually say it both ways! This the point about them being contradictory.


The activation of the Draw+1 space may trigger your draw pile to become empty (if you only had one card to draw at the time you entered the Draw+1 hex), at which point the shuffle rule takes effect because your draw deck is empty.

It actually says if you need to draw and your deck is empty, then reshuffle and draw. But your draw pile should never be empty if you reform it the moment it becomes empty. Maybe this is a difference between the online rules and the printed ones?

I won't be-labor the point any more but I wanted to make it clear the rules were indeed contradictory and the reason for asking.
 
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Anthony Nguyen
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Just received my game yesterday, haven't had a chance to play, but maybe Jesse, if you can put an FAQ together for all the rulings on the rules in the information section? That will be very helpful.

Thanks
 
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Duke Drizzt
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The rules are not contradictory for reshuffling the draw pile. It's simple, when its out, reshuffle. Its not brain surgery.
 
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