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Subject: Spades again again... rss

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Mikkel Øberg
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Greetings,

Having read all the rules' thread here on the geek, there is still a few areas regarding terraforming where I have a doubt (usually it is because I overthink a problem and am unable to wrap my head around a simple solution):

1) Is the following correct: If I just want to build a dwelling on in-an-earlier-round-already-terraformed land, I choose the terraforming action, but choose to spend no spades, place a dwelling (and pays), and is not allowed to use spades to terraform any land as part of that action, at all.

2) If a gain multiple spades from a source at one time, I can either: Terraform land using 2+ spades (paying for extras), and then choose to build a dwelling on that space. Or terraform something for 1 spade, choose to build a dwelling on that space, and then use the leftover spade to terraform another space one step (need not be adjecent to the first space or anything else than indirectly or directly adjecent to an existing building I own).

3) Page 15 of English rulebook states the following regarding Cult Bonus Spades: "You can apply these spades on different adjacent Terrain spaces". Why the word "adjacent"? Is this specific for Cult Bonus Spades (that they have to be used adjacent to one another, and is that directly or indirectly adjacent), or is this also a rule regarding ordinary spades?

The game seems rather simple, but the rules regarding terraforming and the use of spades seems to be written rather poorly, and could have used a simple "if-then-else" diagram to provide an overview.
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Shawn Fox
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The term adjacent is referring to the game definition of an adjacent terrain. Meaning any terrain you can reach directly (right next to one of your buildings), via shipping, or special ability (Fakirs, Dwarfs).

[edit] When spades are gained at the end of a round from a cult bonus, the Fakir or Dwarf special ability cannot be used.
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Philip Thomas
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sfox wrote:
The term adjacent is referring to the game definition of an adjacent terrain. Meaning any terrain you can reach directly (right next to one of your buildings), via shipping, or special ability (Fakirs, Dwarfs).


So for Cult Bonus spades Fakirs and Dwarves are allowed to use their special ability? Seems curious given that (IIRC) you aren't allowed to spend extra spades for Cult Bonus spades (or indeed build a dwelling there, so that the Fakir/Dwarf player would need to use the ability a second time to actually place a dwelling on the space during his turn).
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Robert
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2. You can even not terraform, but just build a dwelling, then use the leftover spades to terraform 1 additional space, I believe.
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Gareth
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Gregaria wrote:
1) Is the following correct: If I just want to build a dwelling on in-an-earlier-round-already-terraformed land, I choose the terraforming action, but choose to spend no spades, place a dwelling (and pays), and is not allowed to use spades to terraform any land as part of that action, at all.]

Correct, to put it another way, you can only build on a hex which was already your home colour or which you converted to your home colour in the same Terraform and Build action.

Gregaria wrote:
2) If a gain multiple spades from a source at one time, I can either: Terraform land using 2+ spades (paying for extras), and then choose to build a dwelling on that space. Or terraform something for 1 spade, choose to build a dwelling on that space, and then use the leftover spade to terraform another space one step (need not be adjecent to the first space or anything else than indirectly or directly adjecent to an existing building I own).

Correct-ish. The second spade can only be spent on a space which was adjacent (directly or indirectly) to a building you owned at the beginning of the Terraform and Build action.

Note that this situation only arises when taking the double-spade action space or when building the Halfling stronghold.

Gregaria wrote:
3) Page 15 of English rulebook states the following regarding Cult Bonus Spades: "You can apply these spades on different adjacent Terrain spaces". Why the word "adjacent"? Is this specific for Cult Bonus Spades (that they have to be used adjacent to one another, and is that directly or indirectly adjacent), or is this also a rule regarding ordinary spades?

Adjacent means adjacent (directly or indirectly) to a building you own.

Gregaria wrote:
The game seems rather simple, but the rules regarding terraforming and the use of spades seems to be written rather poorly, and could have used a simple "if-then-else" diagram to provide an overview.

Personally I think it would have been clearer if they had used "adjacent" and "reachable" in place of "directly adjacent" and "indirectly adjacent" as it would stop people getting confused about exactly what "adjacent" means.
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Nathan Kaplan
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RobertDD wrote:
2. You can even not terraform, but just build a dwelling, then use the leftover spades to terraform 1 additional space, I believe.


My impression is that that is wrong.

I always thought it was strictly terraform THEN build. In that case, "adjacent" is important, because you would not be allowed to "extend" your reach by terraforming, building, and then terraforming another hex that is adjacent to the dwelling you just built. This would only apply to the case where you obtain multiple free spades (eg, the 2-spade power action).

EDIT: Gareth says what I'm trying to say better in the 2nd part of his post. If he is correct, then Robert must be wrong, yes?
 
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Gareth
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RobertDD wrote:
2. You can even not terraform, but just build a dwelling, then use the leftover spades to terraform 1 additional space, I believe.


Hmm, I was ready to state that this was a load of tosh, but having just reread the rules I can see how you get to this interpretation.

Out of curiosity has this been confirmed by the designer in another thread?

Edit: So I already found some discussion in this previous thread Terraform + 2 unused spades.

The outcome seems ambiguous (the designer has thumbed some posts for and some against). Would be nice to get clarification.
 
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John Borders
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My understanding is that typically the build is the end action. The only exceptions are: a) the 2 spade power action, b) the halfling stronghold build reward, and c) spades acquired during the cult bonus.

So for example, with no special actions typically its spend for spades to terraform, then build.

When you take the 2 spade power action but the spaces around you only require 1 spade to terraform, you terraform 1 of the spaces, then build, then as an exception you can use the extra spade on another adjacent space to terraform(and cannot build again).

When you earn the halfling stronghold bonus, its not uncommon to terraform, build, terraform, terraform.

I am hoping a designer might chime in to confirm or correct this.
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Gareth
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Speedbump858 wrote:
My understanding is that typically the build is the end action. The only exceptions are: a) the 2 spade power action, b) the dwarven halfling stronghold build reward, and c) spades acquired during the cult bonus.

So for example, with no special actions typically its spend for spades to terraform, then build.

When you take the 2 spade power action but the spaces around you only require 1 spade to terraform, you terraform 1 of the spaces, then build, then as an exception you can use the extra spade on another adjacent space to terraform(and cannot build again).

When you earn the dwarven halfling stronghold bonus, its not uncommon to terraform, build, terraform, terraform.

I am hoping a designer might chime in to confirm or correct this.


FTFY
 
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Gareth
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John, your understanding gels with mine. That said, I can also see how Robert got to his interpretation of the rules. Unfortunately, I am unable to find an unambiguous dismissal of his interpretation of the rules as written.

Well, time to see what the German rules have to say about it.
 
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John Borders
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Thanks for the catch... was thinking of short people...
 
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Gareth
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Speedbump858 wrote:
Thanks for the catch... was thinking of short people...

Are you saying they all look alike?
 
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Robert
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I concur with the adjacency remarks. You have to spend excess spades on a single hex that was adjacent to you at the beginning of your turn.

When you terraform and build, no matter how it came to be that you get to do that action, you may always perform a terraform of 0 spades. Leftover spades (all of them, in case of a 0-terraform) will then be handled just like in all other cases where there's leftover spades after a terraform & build action.
 
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Gareth
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RobertDD wrote:
When you terraform and build, no matter how it came to be that you get to do that action, you may always perform a terraform of 0 spades. Leftover spades (all of them, in case of a 0-terraform) will then be handled just like in all other cases where there's leftover spades after a terraform & build action.


This is the only part that isn't clear to me (especially since you seem to be arguing the opposite in the other thread). Has this been questioned/clarified somewhere?
 
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Robert
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Capoeirista wrote:
RobertDD wrote:
When you terraform and build, no matter how it came to be that you get to do that action, you may always perform a terraform of 0 spades. Leftover spades (all of them, in case of a 0-terraform) will then be handled just like in all other cases where there's leftover spades after a terraform & build action.


This is the only part that isn't clear to me (especially since you seem to be arguing the opposite in the other thread). Has this been questioned/clarified somewhere?


It must've been clarified somewhere. Interesting to read my own comments from back then. It does seem like I am arguing the opposite side of the issue...

To me, the two things that really make this clear is that:
1. The 2 spades power action lets you take a transform and build action and gives you two spades towards it. There's no special action, it's just a normal transform and build.
2. You can forego the transform part (transform for 0) and just build when you take a transform and build action.
 
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Gareth
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The only issue with this interpretation is that it also means when receiving a single spade, you may also terraform for 0, build and then terraform somewhere else. No mention of this possibility is made.
 
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Sam
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Capoeirista wrote:
The only issue with this interpretation is that it also means when receiving a single spade, you may also terraform for 0, build and then terraform somewhere else. No mention of this possibility is made.

No, the fact that no mention of that possibility is made is a perfect example of the phrase "the exception proves the rule". The rules include a highly conditional exception relating to the case of having two free spades and needing precisely one of them. The strong implication is that the exception only apples to this very specific case.
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Mike Stevens
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Speedbump858 wrote:
My understanding is that typically the build is the end action. The only exceptions are: a) the 2 spade power action, b) the halfling stronghold build reward, and c) spades acquired during the cult bonus.

So for example, with no special actions typically its spend for spades to terraform, then build.

When you take the 2 spade power action but the spaces around you only require 1 spade to terraform, you terraform 1 of the spaces, then build, then as an exception you can use the extra spade on another adjacent space to terraform(and cannot build again).

When you earn the halfling stronghold bonus, its not uncommon to terraform, build, terraform, terraform.

I am hoping a designer might chime in to confirm or correct this.


I have played about 10 games and that is how we have been playing. It seems to me that this was the original intention of the rules. Maybe Helge, Jens, or Uwe can chime in and let us know how they meant the rule to be played.
 
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Garry Clarke
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Try and think of Action 1 Transform and Build this way:

You may build on one space only, if the terrain isn't suitable you may transform it first.

---------------------------------

With 2 free spades (Power Action) you never 'transform-build-transform again'

You complete all the transforming first, on spaces adjacent or indirectly adjacent to your existing buildings. Then you may build.
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Matthias Reitberger
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I think it`s quite clear in the rules:

Quote:
Details on the Cult bonus “Spades”
• The Cult bonuses are awarded in the play order of the next round.
(This is relevant for Spades.)
• You may not acquire additional Spades when getting them as a
Cult bonus.
(Neither may the Fakirs do a Carpet Flight, nor the Dwarves
do Tunneling when getting Spades as a Cult bonus. A Carpet
Flight and Tunneling have costs that cannot be paid outside the Action
phase. Also, if the Giants get only a single Spade as a Cult
bonus, this Spade will be forfeit.)
• You may not save Spades for future turns.
• You may apply these Spades on different adjacent Terrain
spaces.
• You may not build a Dwelling in Phase III.


The only point that can be misinterpreted is what adjactant Terrain means. Since there is no mention of directly adjactant. I think any terrain reachable directly or per Ship is meant. The special mentioning that Carpet Flight and Tunneling doesn't apply underlines that.
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Helge Ostertag
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Garry wrote:
Try and think of Action 1 Transform and Build this way:

You may build on one space only, if the terrain isn't suitable you may transform it first.

---------------------------------

With 2 free spades (Power Action) you never 'transform-build-transform again'

You complete all the transforming first, on spaces adjacent or indirectly adjacent to your existing buildings. Then you may build.


That is absolutely correct!
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Helge Ostertag
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1869 wrote:
I think it`s quite clear in the rules:

Quote:
Details on the Cult bonus “Spades”
• The Cult bonuses are awarded in the play order of the next round.
(This is relevant for Spades.)
• You may not acquire additional Spades when getting them as a
Cult bonus.
(Neither may the Fakirs do a Carpet Flight, nor the Dwarves
do Tunneling when getting Spades as a Cult bonus. A Carpet
Flight and Tunneling have costs that cannot be paid outside the Action
phase. Also, if the Giants get only a single Spade as a Cult
bonus, this Spade will be forfeit.)
• You may not save Spades for future turns.
• You may apply these Spades on different adjacent Terrain
spaces.
• You may not build a Dwelling in Phase III.


The only point that can be misinterpreted is what adjactant Terrain means. Since there is no mention of directly adjactant. I think any terrain reachable directly or per Ship is meant. The special mentioning that Carpet Flight and Tunneling doesn't apply underlines that.


That is correct!

The difference between direct and indirect adjacency is the effect on gaining power, building trading posts and founding towns. Concerning terraforming, it doesn't matter whether a space is direct or indirect adjacent, with cult bonus "spade" for fakirs and dwarves being the exception (see above).
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Helge Ostertag
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Capoeirista wrote:
[q="RobertDD"]

Out of curiosity has this been confirmed by the designer in another thread?

Edit: So I already found some discussion in this previous thread Terraform + 2 unused spades.

The outcome seems ambiguous (the designer has thumbed some posts for and some against). Would be nice to get clarification.


All posts that I have thumped are correct, but I will try to clarify it on your other thread.
 
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Andi Hub
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1869 wrote:
I think it`s quite clear in the rules:
Quote:
Details on the Cult bonus “Spades”
• The Cult bonuses are awarded in the play order of the next round.
(This is relevant for Spades.)
• You may not acquire additional Spades when getting them as a
Cult bonus.
(Neither may the Fakirs do a Carpet Flight, nor the Dwarves
do Tunneling when getting Spades as a Cult bonus. A Carpet
Flight and Tunneling have costs that cannot be paid outside the Action
phase. Also, if the Giants get only a single Spade as a Cult
bonus, this Spade will be forfeit.)
• You may not save Spades for future turns.
• You may apply these Spades on different adjacent Terrain
spaces.
• You may not build a Dwelling in Phase III.

The only point that can be misinterpreted is what adjactant Terrain means. Since there is no mention of directly adjactant. I think any terrain reachable directly or per Ship is meant. The special mentioning that Carpet Flight and Tunneling doesn't apply underlines that.


I think Cult Bonus spades are not the issue here. The question is about the order of terraforming and building.

I agree with most that this is not clear in the rules. I would play it the way that you have to terraform first (using all your spades) and then may build only on a tile that you have terraformed this turn. If a tile is already a home terrain, I would not count it as "terraformed for zero spades". Even though I would not play so, I do not find any paragraph in the rules forbidding "Terraform-Build-Terraform" (and in case this is possible, if the tile for the second terraform may be adjacent to the new building but not previously existing ones).

Edit: Oh, while writing my text, Helge clarified everything.
 
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