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Subject: Office, Market woman = infinite Grain / Vegetables / Food combo? rss

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W M
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We were drafting using a mixture of decks including E,I,K and FL. I allowed my opponent to secure both Market Woman(whenever you receive vegetables from an action space or minor improvement - take 2 grain) and the Office - an Flanders deck improvement which allows you to convert 1 grain to 1 vegetable at any time.

As far as we could understand once the Office, Market woman are out and 1 veg is taken from the board this gives infinite grain, vegetables and therefore food.

Is there any errata on this clearly broken combo?

I should state that beginning the game I knew she had both the cards and played defensively to prevent the playing of Office which requires 3 Wood, 4 Clay and 2 Reed but only held it off until round 9 whereupon I was swiftly trounced despite having 5 actions to her four.

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Jason B
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edit: misread the op soblue
 
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Eugene van der Pijll
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archivists wrote:
As far as we could understand once the Office, Market woman are out and 1 veg is taken from the board this gives infinite grain, vegetables and therefore food.

That seems correct (without checking the cards for myself).

Quote:
Is there any errata on this clearly broken combo?

The only solution I see, is to explicitly forbid this combo: Market Woman gives grain when you receive vegetables from an action space or an improvement, except Office.
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Jens Kunst
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Hm... that is very broken. Good catch.
 
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Maybe you could stipulate that "convert" is not the same as "receive."

Or, if that fails, you could say that one can activate the other, but they can't chain off of each other (this seems obvious to me).
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The actual English text is 'Exchange', but for me you are still receiving a vegetable (from the supply) in exchange for the grain. I think this was simply missed or presumed that the high cost of the Office would make it unplayable.
 
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Lacombe
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Wow. TBH, Office almost seems broken on its own, apart from the combo... and I say that as someone who is fond of very powerful cards and doesn't ban anything except Ranch (Z deck) with FotM. Not a whole lot gives you early vegetables, let alone for the paltry price of one grain each.
 
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Mike T
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kungfro wrote:
Maybe you could stipulate that "convert" is not the same as "receive."

Or, if that fails, you could say that one can activate the other, but they can't chain off of each other (this seems obvious to me).


I don't think either of these interpretations work. Separating "convert" and "receive" sounds like a nightmare, and could have consequences beyond this case.

I don't see any way to prevent them from chaining off of each other. How is this obvious? If they combo, they chain.
 
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It's obvious to me that no card combo can give you infinity anything. Here, this is ultimately caused by a card's ability causally activating itself (i.e. there is no "pause" between each of the card's activations).
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Eugene van der Pijll
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kungfro wrote:
It's obvious to me that no card combo can give you infinity anything. Here, this is ultimately caused by a card's ability causally activating itself (i.e. there is no "pause" between each of the card's activations).

No. The Office is an "at any time" card. (According to the OP. I can't check this.)

So: Take grain from the board.
Wait a few seconds; then use Office -> Market Woman.

Wait a few seconds again: use Office -> Market Woman.

Even if Office cannot be activated more than once per turn, this combo is still massively overpowered.
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I hope you understood what I meant by "pause."
 
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Mike T
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kungfro wrote:
robot
I hope you understood what I meant by "pause."


I do not.

If Market Woman is triggered by Office, it is a theoretically infinite combo. There is no way around that. Add Pumpkin Pie and it makes infinite points.

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Eugene van der Pijll
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kungfro wrote:
robot
I hope you understood what I meant by "pause."

No, I guess I didn't.

I would assume that it refers to the period between two independently triggered chains of events, when the "stack" is empty (to use a term from MtG). But clearly you don't mean that.

smcmike wrote:
Add Pumpkin Pie...

Oooh, nice.
 
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Steve Duff
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kungfro wrote:
It's obvious to me that no card combo can give you infinity anything. Here, this is ultimately caused by a card's ability causally activating itself (i.e. there is no "pause" between each of the card's activations).


Yup, it's obvious to me too. You can chain any cards you can together in any order, but once they're used once, it's over.

You can convert a grain with Office, triggering Market Woman, then it's over.
You can take veggies to trigger Market Woman, then convert with Office, then it's over.

Choose your order as you like, but once is all you get.
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Lacombe
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
kungfro wrote:
It's obvious to me that no card combo can give you infinity anything. Here, this is ultimately caused by a card's ability causally activating itself (i.e. there is no "pause" between each of the card's activations).


Yup, it's obvious to me too. You can chain any cards you can together in any order, but once they're used once, it's over.

You can convert a grain with Office, triggering Market Woman, then it's over.
You can take veggies to trigger Market Woman, then convert with Office, then it's over.

Choose your order as you like, but once is all you get.


"Once" what? Per turn or placement? Per round? Per game? Certainly not either of the latter, and possibly even more lenient than the first. You're essentially claiming that there is only one "at any time" per individual turn or worker placement, which is not at all obvious. What if I want to turn four grain into four vegetables before a harvest? Can I not do that because it's more than once? Or can I only activate Market Woman with one of the four vegetables gained and, if so, by what logic?
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Mike T
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
kungfro wrote:
It's obvious to me that no card combo can give you infinity anything. Here, this is ultimately caused by a card's ability causally activating itself (i.e. there is no "pause" between each of the card's activations).


Yup, it's obvious to me too. You can chain any cards you can together in any order, but once they're used once, it's over.

You can convert a grain with Office, triggering Market Woman, then it's over.

Choose your order as you like, but once is all you get.


And then you do it again, as many times as you like.
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The argument against infinite chaining would make more sense if the Office read as Market Woman does: "whenever you receive grain you may receive one vegetable instead" or some such. But, that's not how it reads. You do not have to be in the process of receiving the grain to use the card, you only have to have the grain in your supply.
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Hanno Girke
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kungfro wrote:
Maybe you could stipulate that "convert" is not the same as "receive."


I can't get ahold of Uwe at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that this is the way to go. Converting/exchanging stuff doesn't count as "receiving".

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Hanno wrote:
kungfro wrote:
Maybe you could stipulate that "convert" is not the same as "receive."


I can't get ahold of Uwe at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that this is the way to go. Converting/exchanging stuff doesn't count as "receiving".



I don't know any specific examples, but that ruling seems likely to have a multitude of other impacts.
 
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NateStraight wrote:
Hanno wrote:
kungfro wrote:
Maybe you could stipulate that "convert" is not the same as "receive."


I can't get ahold of Uwe at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that this is the way to go. Converting/exchanging stuff doesn't count as "receiving".



I don't know any specific examples, but that ruling seems likely to have a multitude of other impacts.


Possibly, but I think Hanno is likely right. To me, it feels like an Ockham's Razor decision.

Let's celebrate with some Pumpkin Pie!
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smcmike wrote:
kungfro wrote:
robot
I hope you understood what I meant by "pause."


I do not.

If Market Woman is triggered by Office, it is a theoretically infinite combo. There is no way around that. Add Pumpkin Pie and it makes infinite points.



Well, no, because you can only use Pumpkin Pie once per baking action, no matter how much grain and veggies you have. To get infinite points you'd need infinite baking actions.

But it's still pretty completely broken combo.

Edit: Although if you also throw in a Carrot Cake Baker, I think it is infinite points...
 
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Matt Shields
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Hanno wrote:
kungfro wrote:
Maybe you could stipulate that "convert" is not the same as "receive."


I can't get ahold of Uwe at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that this is the way to go. Converting/exchanging stuff doesn't count as "receiving".



This would solve the immediate problem, but I think it's also a rules change. "Receive" has historically been taken to mean any time a resource come into your possession by any means. It seems very likely this will change how other cards work...

I'd be careful about making a sweeping ruling like that without making sure you're ok with other effects.

It might be better to just errata Office...
 
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kungfro wrote:
It's obvious to me that no card combo can give you infinity anything. Here, this is ultimately caused by a card's ability causally activating itself (i.e. there is no "pause" between each of the card's activations).


That's not true though. The card is not activating itself. It is simply that using office triggers Market Woman. The problem is that you can use Office whenever you feel like it, so you can do it as many times as you want.

There are many occasions where using one card activates another card. Buying something from my Grocer can activate my Resource Seller. That is very normal. The problem we have is that Office can be activated as much as you want, and that Market Woman gives you back the "cost" you paid to activate Office...
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Mike T
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TwitchBot wrote:
smcmike wrote:
kungfro wrote:
robot
I hope you understood what I meant by "pause."


I do not.

If Market Woman is triggered by Office, it is a theoretically infinite combo. There is no way around that. Add Pumpkin Pie and it makes infinite points.



Well, no, because you can only use Pumpkin Pie once per baking action, no matter how much grain and veggies you have. To get infinite points you'd need infinite baking actions.

But it's still pretty completely broken combo.


Ah, yes, I'm rusty. You can't get infinite points unless you have the fourth card in the combo.
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Hanno Girke
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TwitchBot wrote:

I'd be careful about making a sweeping ruling like that without making sure you're ok with other effects.

It might be better to just errata Office...


It is the preliminary ruling - and a proleptic one, too.
With the increasing amount of cards in the game, we need to adapt templates from time to time. This might be the case here.

I'd appreciate if you let me now if this new ruling would lead to other cards/combos losing their value/importance.
(If the new ruling creates more issues than it solves, I'll instead issue an errata for Office ("Ressources and animals you get from the Office do not trigger any other effects.")
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