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Subject: On spending free shovels from power actions and halfling stronghold. rss

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Gareth
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The rules about usage of free spades in Terraform & Build (T&B) actions have some ambiguities. This is leading to different interpretations of how those free shovels may or may not be spent and I think it would be good to settle once and for all exactly how things work.

Now, since our esteemed designer only communicates through the medium of thumbs (perhaps he pissed off an admin?) I'm going to post a series of constraints which may or may not apply to Terraform and/or Build actions as separate posts. If the stars align and we are graced with his phalangeal presence, the hope is that Helge will thumb only those constraints which should actually apply and we will have a clearer understanding of how to interpret the rules.

Either that or he'll just thumb all of the posts to mess with us
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Gareth
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Constraint 1: Terraforming is mandatory with free shovels. When performing a T&B in which they have received free shovels, a player cannot build on a hex which began the action as their home terrain.
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Gareth
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Constraint 2: T&B must affect a single hex, if possible. If a player takes the power action which gives two free shovels, the shovels may not be spent terraforming different hexes unless one of those hexes only requires one shovel to become the players home terrain, e.g. a player playing Mermaids may not use the double shovel action to affect two separate Yellow hexes.
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Gareth
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Constraint 3: Overflow doesn't cascade. If after taking a T&B action, you are left with >1 shovel, you may still only affect one additional hex. If transforming that hex to your home terrain doesn't consume all remaining shovels, any remainder is wasted.
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Gareth
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Constraint 4: No shovels may be voluntarily wasted. When performing a T&B in which any shovels are not used in transforming the space which is the target of the Build, the remaining shovels must be spent on additional terraforms, if possible.
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Gareth
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Constraint 5: Shovels must be maximally spent. This can only apply if constraints 3 & 4 both apply. After doing T&B on one hex, if you have >1 shovel left, you may not elect to spend them on a space which is only 1 step away from home if a space which is >1 step away from home exists and is adjacent.
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Gareth
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For the record, my interpretation of the rules as written is that Constraints 1, 2 & 3 hold but 4 & 5 do not.
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Gareth
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Darn, knew I had missed one. For the record, I also think this holds:

Constraint 6: Free shovels must be consumed first. If a player takes the double shovel action, they may not supplement the shovels by using workers/priests unless the shovels were insufficient to terraform a single space into their home terrain e.g. someone playing the Mermaids could not take the double shovel action and spend 3 workers to Terraform both a Brown space and a Black space to Blue.

Edit: tried to reformulate. It's hard to express the rule succinctly, but I think the example clarifies.
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Garry Clarke
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I don't know if it's just me but this seems overly complicated. The Transform and Build action/power actions are really fairly simple:

Action 1 Transform and build
You may transform and/or build on one space only.
It must be directly or indirectly adjacent to one of your structures, even if only transforming.

Action 6 Power Actions
If you gain Spades here you may add workers to transform one space only.
If you gain more Spades than you need to transform 1 space, you may transform more spaces with the remainder but not add workers.
All transformed spaces must be adjacent to your existing structures. After transforming you may place a dwelling on one of the transformed spaces.

Cult Bonuses
If you acquire Spades, you may not add further spades (from workers etc). You may apply them to different directly or indirectly adjacent spaces. You can’t save them for later. You may not build.


Note: A faction may have powers that will change these rules.
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Matthias Reitberger
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From what I know most of your assumptions are wrong.

1. That's wrong. You may spend free shovels there is no must.

2. After rereading the rules I think that´s right.

3. Theres a clear statement of the author that you have to spend all your shovels first and then build on one of the affected hexes.

4. Same as 1.

5. Since 3 is wrong 5 doesn't apply.
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Gareth
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1869 wrote:
1. That's wrong. You may spend free shovels there is no must.

The issue with this interpretation is that it then leads some to conclude that those shovels are "left over" and can then be spent on other hexes.

Consider the double shovel action. Say I take it and then transform one hex one space to my home colour. Can I then build on a totally separate space which already started as my colour by asserting that I terraformed it but it cost me no shovels? Can I build on a totally separate space if I transformed another space two steps instead of one. This is the issue if that constraint doesn't hold.

1869 wrote:
3. Theres a clear statement of the author that you have to spend all your shovels first and then build on one of the affected hexes.

That's not what I'm asserting here. What I'm asserting is essentially that even if you receive 3 shovels, you can still only terraform at most two hexes in a single action. You cannot terraform 3 hexes once.

However, your statement here kind of contradicts your assertion on the first constraint. If I elect to spend no shovels then I have affected no hexes and so I may not build. Which is it?
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Gareth
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Garry wrote:
Action 6 Power Actions
If you gain Spades here you may add workers to transform one space only.
If you gain more Spades than you need to transform 1 space, you may transform more spaces with the remainder but not add workers.
All transformed spaces must be adjacent to your existing structures. After transforming you may place a dwelling on one of the transformed spaces.


The part which you have omitted and which has fueled a lot of these discussions is whether I may select a space which is already in my home colour as the "one space" I get to transform. If I can, then, by definition I have gained more spades than I needed and may transform another space.
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Helge Ostertag
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Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 3: Overflow doesn't cascade. If after taking a T&B action, you are left with >1 shovel, you may still only affect one additional hex. If transforming that hex to your home terrain doesn't consume all remaining shovels, any remainder is wasted.


This scenario can only happen, when Halflings build their stronghold, which gives them 3 spades.
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Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 1: Terraforming is mandatory with free shovels. When performing a T&B in which they have received free shovels, a player cannot build on a hex which began the action as their home terrain.


It is theoretically possible, if the player wants to waste a "free" shovel (it would expire), but it is completly useless. Why would anybody want to do that?
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Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 2: T&B must affect a single hex, if possible. If a player takes the power action which gives two free shovels, the shovels may not be spent terraforming different hexes unless one of those hexes only requires one shovel to become the players home terrain, e.g. a player playing Mermaids may not use the double shovel action to affect two separate Yellow hexes.


That is correct!
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Gareth
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Horologiom wrote:
Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 3: Overflow doesn't cascade. If after taking a T&B action, you are left with >1 shovel, you may still only affect one additional hex. If transforming that hex to your home terrain doesn't consume all remaining shovels, any remainder is wasted.


This scenario can only happen, when Halflings build their stronghold, which gives them 3 spades.


Fair enough, but does the constraint hold or not? When the halflings get 3 shovels, can they use them to terraform just two spaces or could they modify three?

Also, your statement that this can only happen in that case implies that constraint 1 holds. Is that the case?
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Gareth
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Horologiom wrote:
Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 1: Terraforming is mandatory with free shovels. When performing a T&B in which they have received free shovels, a player cannot build on a hex which began the action as their home terrain.


It is theoretically possible, if the player wants to waste a "free" shovel (it would expire), but it is completly useless. Why would anybody want to that?


It's subtle but it relates to spending "left over" shovels. If I'm allowed to pick a space which is already my home terrain when gaining free shovels, what happens to those shovels? Are they all wasted? Is just one wasted?
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Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 4: No shovels may be voluntarily wasted. When performing a T&B in which any shovels are not used in transforming the space which is the target of the Build, the remaining shovels must be spent on additional terraforms, if possible.



Wrong. How do you conclude that?

From the rules (page 17):
"If these Spades do not suffice to transform a given Terrain space
into your Home terrain, you may exchange Workers* for the missing
Spade – at the current Exchange rate on your Exchange track. If you
only need one Spade to transform a Terrain space into your Home
terrain, you may spend the second Spade on another Terrain space.
However, you may not place a Dwelling on this other space.)"

There is no must!
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Gareth
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Horologiom wrote:
Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 4: No shovels may be voluntarily wasted. When performing a T&B in which any shovels are not used in transforming the space which is the target of the Build, the remaining shovels must be spent on additional terraforms, if possible.



Wrong. How do you conclude that?

From the rules (page 17):
"If these Spades do not suffice to transform a given Terrain space
into your Home terrain, you may exchange Workers* for the missing
Spade – at the current Exchange rate on your Exchange track. If you
only need one Spade to transform a Terrain space into your Home
terrain, you may spend the second Spade on another Terrain space.
However, you may not place a Dwelling on this other space.)"

Ther is no must!


Sorry, to be clear, I haven't concluded all of these interpretations. The idea is that some of them must be false and I was hoping you could identify which do and which don't hold once and for all.
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Capoeirista wrote:
Horologiom wrote:
Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 3: Overflow doesn't cascade. If after taking a T&B action, you are left with >1 shovel, you may still only affect one additional hex. If transforming that hex to your home terrain doesn't consume all remaining shovels, any remainder is wasted.


This scenario can only happen, when Halflings build their stronghold, which gives them 3 spades.


Fair enough, but does the constraint hold or not? When the halflings get 3 shovels, can they use them to terraform just two spaces or could they modify three?

Also, your statement that this can only happen in that case implies that constraint 1 holds. Is that the case?


They can modify up to three spaces.
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Capoeirista wrote:
Horologiom wrote:
Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 1: Terraforming is mandatory with free shovels. When performing a T&B in which they have received free shovels, a player cannot build on a hex which began the action as their home terrain.


It is theoretically possible, if the player wants to waste a "free" shovel (it would expire), but it is completly useless. Why would anybody want to that?


It's subtle but it relates to spending "left over" shovels. If I'm allowed to pick a space which is already my home terrain when gaining free shovels, what happens to those shovels? Are they all wasted? Is just one wasted?


They are all wasted.
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Capoeirista wrote:
Darn, knew I had missed one. For the record, I also think this holds:

Constraint 6: Free shovels must be consumed first. If a player takes the double shovel action, they may not supplement the shovels by using workers/priests unless the shovels were insufficient to terraform a single space into their home terrain e.g. someone playing the Mermaids could not take the double shovel action and spend 3 workers to Terraform both a Brown space and a Black space to Blue.

Edit: tried to reformulate. It's hard to express the rule succinctly, but I think the example clarifies.


From the rules page 17:
"By moving 6 Power tokens from Bowl III to
Bowl I, you may take Action #1 “Transform
and Build” (see page 9) getting 2 free Spades
for this purpose.
(If these Spades do not suffice to transform a given Terrain space
into your Home terrain, you may exchange Workers* for the missing
Spade – at the current Exchange rate on your Exchange track. If you
only need one Spade to transform a Terrain space into your Home
terrain, you may spend the second Spade on another Terrain space.
However, you may not place a Dwelling on this other space.)"

So yes, as written in the rules, you have to spend these spades first.
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Gareth
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Horologiom wrote:
Capoeirista wrote:
Horologiom wrote:
Capoeirista wrote:
Constraint 1: Terraforming is mandatory with free shovels. When performing a T&B in which they have received free shovels, a player cannot build on a hex which began the action as their home terrain.


It is theoretically possible, if the player wants to waste a "free" shovel (it would expire), but it is completly useless. Why would anybody want to that?


It's subtle but it relates to spending "left over" shovels. If I'm allowed to pick a space which is already my home terrain when gaining free shovels, what happens to those shovels? Are they all wasted? Is just one wasted?


They are all wasted.


Just to explicitly spell this one out since it's a curious outcome. I take the action which gains me two shovels.

If I elect to terraform a hex one step to my home terrain and build there, then I may additionally terraform a second hex one step.

However, if I select hex which is already my home terrain to build on, then both shovels are wasted.

Is this correct?
 
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Not clear for me, what you intend...

if you want to waste 6 power to take away the action, but you do not want to use the shovels, yes, i think you can build on any other home terrain hex.
 
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teefha wrote:
Not clear for me, what you intend...

if you want to waste 6 power to take away the action, but you do not want to use the shovels, yes, i think you can build on any other home terrain hex.


Right.
But again, useless to do so.
 
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