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Fallen City of Karez» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Sending to Work" Action rss

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Michael Lattanzia
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I'm a bit confused as to how the "Sending to Work"/Activations phase works. I know I can choose to place 2 citizens or 1 adventurer, but I have a few questions about placement.

1) Only the person that places the last worker needed on a space gets to activate it during activation phase? If I put 1 citizen on lava mill then my opponent puts 1 citizen on later he gets to place his guild token and activate it during activations?

2) How do you activate spaces that don't require workers (Library, Slave Pits, Barracks, etc)? Do you just place your guild token on there and pay the cost or do you need to actually send a citizen there (or can it be a citizen OR an adventurer)?

3) When I send a worker to a location that has another cost (Wishing Well, for example) do I place a worker AND the cost on the action, and then the extra cost (the gold) goes away (either to the resource pool or owning player, depending) during activation?

4) What does a citizen icon on the right side of the = sign mean (Slave Pits)? It's listed on the player's aid as "A live worker need", but it's a reward, not a need. 1 gold + 1 gold to the owner of the building = ? Does it mean take a new citizen from the resource pool and add them to the City Center?

Thanks!
 
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Kris Ardianto
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Quote:
1) Only the person that places the last worker needed on a space gets to activate it during activation phase? If I put 1 citizen on lava mill then my opponent puts 1 citizen on later he gets to place his guild token and activate it during activations?


I guess, this is correct. But, what I don't know is what if there is only 1 citizen left on city center? Can anyone use it? Since it does not meet the 2 citizens criteria. Or the rules were supposed to state "up to 2 citizens"? But if this is the correct rules, your issue does not seem valid. Why would people pick 2 citizens to place in 2 different place if it gives others advantage?

Quote:
2) How do you activate spaces that don't require workers (Library, Slave Pits, Barracks, etc)? Do you just place your guild token on there and pay the cost or do you need to actually send a citizen there (or can it be a citizen OR an adventurer)?


Only a guild token.

Quote:
3) When I send a worker to a location that has another cost (Wishing Well, for example) do I place a worker AND the cost on the action, and then the extra cost (the gold) goes away (either to the resource pool or owning player, depending) during activation?


I also would like to know about this. Do you pay the cost in action phase (straight to the owner or place it on the board first? And when activated on activation phase, does the owner then get the gold?

Quote:
4) What does a citizen icon on the right side of the = sign mean (Slave Pits)? It's listed on the player's aid as "A live worker need", but it's a reward, not a need. 1 gold + 1 gold to the owner of the building = ? Does it mean take a new citizen from the resource pool and add them to the City Center?


I believe yes, you add it to the city center. Since the activation phase is after the action, you can't use the new citizen right away in this turn. You need to wait for the next turn. This also tactical to determine the state of Karez. One citizen is matter.
 
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Michael Lattanzia
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vardamir wrote:


Quote:
2) How do you activate spaces that don't require workers (Library, Slave Pits, Barracks, etc)? Do you just place your guild token on there and pay the cost or do you need to actually send a citizen there (or can it be a citizen OR an adventurer)?


Only a guild token.


So, how do you do that then? That's not any of the listed actions in the rulebook.
 
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Kris Ardianto
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Svenn wrote:
vardamir wrote:


Quote:
2) How do you activate spaces that don't require workers (Library, Slave Pits, Barracks, etc)? Do you just place your guild token on there and pay the cost or do you need to actually send a citizen there (or can it be a citizen OR an adventurer)?


Only a guild token.


So, how do you do that then? That's not any of the listed actions in the rulebook.


I know the rulebook does not cover this clearly. But the guild token is like action marker. You can use it to mark the action you take in neutral buildings or other player's building.
So, your action consist of placing a guild token in integration with sending workforce if any. If the action does not involve any workforce, then only the guild token is required.
Now, as I stated before, this issue has a connection with my previous questions that need a clarification.
If an action required a cost along with the guild token, does the player who takes the action pay the cost immediately when placing the guild token (paying here is placing the cost in the board or straight to supply or owner?) or you can pay later during activation phase?
 
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Mark Stocks
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My feeling is that you would pay the cost onto the board when you place the guild token and the cost goes to the building owner or the bank once you activate. This does however have the effect of reducing some of the strategy, eg I use the guard tower to get a valor cube to then pay for a different action that requires a valor cube in the same round.

Although I would prefer this to not be the case my feeling is that this does align the use of resources to the point in the FAQ where the owner of the marketplace could buy all of the cards for only 1 or 2 gold by recycling gold.

Maybe the way to go would be to not pay for things until the activation phase, but also not allow or limiting the buying of equipment in the activation. This would allow more strategy in the placing of guild tokens but remove the issue with the marketplace owner buying everything. You could even add another action that is to place a guild token (as many as people want) on the marketplace, blacksmith or tower so that this number of purchases can be carried out in the activation phase. This would be a risk if no items are currently upturned as you wouldn't know what was on offer (you wouldn't be obliged to buy).

Obviously we need a ruling from Elad on this realy, but they are my thoughts.

Mark
 
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Throknor
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Just played solo. I placed everything required on the action bar during the placement phase and distributed it during activation. Gold turned out to be tricky to manage early when solo, but I wouldn't have had much of a challenge if I didn't have to pay until activation. I could then easily activate the gold-producing actions to pay for the gold-requiring actions, especially as the heroic guild using adventures to earn. As it is I think I screwed up by not always placing a guild token and it was easier than it should have been.

As for the original questions:
1) You can place two citizens per round, so I don't see this as a huge issue. I see this more as making it so some actions have to be your only action in a round, and the 'last placed' rule is to avoid players from trying to block two spaces at once.

2) If it doesn't need a citizen or adventurer then just your token. This includes visitors (it took me a while to find that for sure, but it's there).

3) I explained my experience above why I think this is exactly correct.

4) Yes, I take it to mean you've freed (or bought) a slave and thus added a citizen to the city center.
 
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Michael Lattanzia
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Throknor wrote:

2) If it doesn't need a citizen or adventurer then just your token. This includes visitors (it took me a while to find that for sure, but it's there).


Can you point me to where you found it? I've been back and forth over this thing and can't find anything about it.
 
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Kris Ardianto
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Svenn wrote:
Throknor wrote:

2) If it doesn't need a citizen or adventurer then just your token. This includes visitors (it took me a while to find that for sure, but it's there).


Can you point me to where you found it? I've been back and forth over this thing and can't find anything about it.


I do found some clues on the rulebook that could point toward this very questionable fact. Though it's easier if Elad would clarify things here, but here it goes:
1. There are different kind of actions spread over the board.
2. These actions though have different requirements and effects.
3. To categorize the requirement, there are actions that need workforces and actions that don't.
4. Action that do not need workforces, need resources instead or none at all. To mark that a player taking that specific action, the guild tokens used. This also used to determine which action has been used and which has not.
5. If you own a building, you don't need to assign a token, since workers placed there or resources placed there without token are considered to be yours.
6. Just like Visitor Card space, you place a token only to take the action. Just when activating then you resolve the action.

Hope this help.
 
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Throknor
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Svenn wrote:
Throknor wrote:

2) If it doesn't need a citizen or adventurer then just your token. This includes visitors (it took me a while to find that for sure, but it's there).


Can you point me to where you found it? I've been back and forth over this thing and can't find anything about it.

Page 7 wrote:
Visitors
This is a one-time action that is opened at the beginning of each turn and may be performed by one of the players. This counts as a general action, and requires putting a Guild token on it.


I took this to answer both the visitor action, and how other general actions would take a guild token even if nothing else.
 
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Michael Lattanzia
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Well here's the problem. There are 5 very specific actions listed for your turn. The only one that has you using the actions on a building is the "Send to Work" action. That action tells you to place 2 citizens or 1 adventurer. If I can just place a guild token on any space to say I'm doing it, what's to stop me from placing my 2 citizens and placing several guild tokens spread around the board with 1 turn?

I imagine that the "Send to Work" action is supposed to be the action for playing on one space on the board, but it's not really clear anywhere in the rules. It simply says to take 2 citizens or 1 adventurer and place them somewhere and the FAQ at the end of the rulebook states that you are allowed to split up where you place the citizens. It sounds like the action should be along the lines of "Choose one available action, place the resource costs on that location and place a guild token there if it is not your building. You may then take up to 2 citizens or 1 adventurer and place them on this location." Unfortunately, the action seems to specifically be referring to placing adventurers/citizens and makes no mention of what to do for spaces that don't require them nor places limitations on how many locations you can claim with one action.
 
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Michael Lattanzia
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Here are a few scenarios that might help clear up the confusion if we can figure out which are legal moves and which are not.

It is my turn. I choose the Send to Work action.

a) I choose to place 2 Citizens. I place one on the Tower (produce instant action) and one on the arena (produce hero) and place my guild token on each one. Legal?

b) I choose to place 2 Citizens. I place both of them on the Lava Mill along with my guild token. I also choose to place my guild token (and a gold) on the Workshop. Legal?

c) I choose to place 2 Citizens. I place one on the Tower (produce instant action) and one on the arena (produce hero) and place my guild token on each one. I then also choose to place a guild token (and resources) on the Barracks, Workshop, Slave Pits, and Library general actions (placing my guild tokens on them plus required resources) because they only require a guild token and no citizens (thus blocking 6 spaces on the first turn of the round). Legal?

It doesn't seem like b or c should be legal, but I can't find anything preventing this if we assume that you just need a guild token there and the rules specifically state that you can play on more than one building action with 1 turn.
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Steven Durst
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Michael,

I can't find anything preventing your option b) and c). Though I think it would make sense that when taking a turn you could only send your workers to a building or buildings (thus indicating your action(s) you will activate in the next phase) or put your guild token at a single building (indicating the action you will take in the activation phase). Doing both in the same turn as you indicate in b) and c) would seem to me to be exploiting.

I would also like to know the answer to whether we pay for the action once we set our guys/tokens down or pay during the activation phase.
 
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Throknor
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Ok. I think the send-to-work covers actions using the citizens or adventurers. Everything else that requires only a token matches the other actions like private dungeons or sending heroes or claiming buildings. Those are the only ones spelled out, but the implication is placing a lone token is a single action, as is a single buy, or placing workers. So you can not do more than 1 token-only action, or combine it with placing workers.

While the description in the manual is a little muddled, anything else would be a broken game. I find it more likely something was lost in the translation where everyone that reviewed them knew what they were supposed to mean and missed the fact something was left out.

OR
Just reviewed the actions and rules. An even simpler thought is that all actions the don't specify can take an adventurer or a citizen. That hadn't occurred to me before, but that actually makes everything cleaner. That's even simpler than what I've been putting forth, and more consistent as well.

Of course now I'm looking and the healers tent and black market both push me back to my original thinking. That anything that doesn't take a worker explicitly is just another action that should have been specified as 1.x and listed separately. So I'm back around to that position; either place workers or lone tokens, but not both. And I know workers might get marked with tokens, the point is each lone token placed is an action and you can't do more than one at a time.

Fwiw, I'm of the opinion resources are placed up front to prevent blocking from actions you can't possibly do. This flows from other placement games I've played; the only significant difference is that owners don't get paid until activated.
 
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Michael Lattanzia
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Throknor wrote:
Ok. I think the send-to-work covers actions using the citizens or adventurers. Everything else that requires only a token matches the other actions like private dungeons or sending heroes or claiming buildings. Those are the only ones spelled out, but the implication is placing a lone token is a single action, as is a single buy, or placing workers. So you can not do more than 1 token-only action, or combine it with placing workers.

While the description in the manual is a little muddled, anything else would be a broken game. I find it more likely something was lost in the translation where everyone that reviewed them knew what they were supposed to mean and missed the fact something was left out.

OR
Just reviewed the actions and rules. An even simpler thought is that all actions the don't specify can take an adventurer or a citizen. That hadn't occurred to me before, but that actually makes everything cleaner. That's even simpler than what I've been putting forth, and more consistent as well.

Of course now I'm looking and the healers tent and black market both push me back to my original thinking. That anything that doesn't take a worker explicitly is just another action that should have been specified as 1.x and listed separately. So I'm back around to that position; either place workers or lone tokens, but not both. And I know workers might get marked with tokens, the point is each lone token placed is an action and you can't do more than one at a time.

Fwiw, I'm of the opinion resources are placed up front to prevent blocking from actions you can't possibly do. This flows from other placement games I've played; the only significant difference is that owners don't get paid until activated.


Well, yeah, these are the two options I was bouncing between. Either you need to place a worker on those spaces to activate them and which worker doesn't matter, or you don't need to place a worker but there's some other restriction. Either one seems like it could make sense.

I'm pretty sure I read in another thread that you are supposed to place the resources up front, but I'm still not 100% on that. I certainly didn't get that from reading the rulebook.
 
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Elad Goldsteen
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We will publish a "the first few turns" extended example along with a video tutorials of the rules in general and also a 3 turns run through of a 3 player game (turn by turn play) just to give you a clearer view of the game mechanics.

The game flows much smoother and simpler than you might think and it will be easy to pick up with these tools.

We just need to finish the distribution of all KS copies (and pre-orders) first as many copies are still in transit.

Hopefully you will see these posted within a week.
 
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Michael Lattanzia
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eg1105 wrote:
We will publish a "the first few turns" extended example along with a video tutorials of the rules in general and also a 3 turns run through of a 3 player game (turn by turn play) just to give you a clearer view of the game mechanics.

The game flows much smoother and simpler than you might think and it will be easy to pick up with these tools.

We just need to finish the distribution of all KS copies (and pre-orders) first as many copies are still in transit.

Hopefully you will see these posted within a week.

The game seems pretty straight forward for the most part. The problem is that there are a few things that are just not clearly defined and could go a few ways. The only real remaining question I have is what is the proper method of using a building space that doesn't require workers? Do you still have to place a worker on that location? If not, does this mean you can place workers AND place your guild token on another action all in the same turn?

I did find an answer to the question of when to put the resources down. You have to put the resources down during the action phase, and you move them to their proper locations when you activate them during the activation phase. Check out the tutorial video on the website here: http://www.goldenegggames.com/#!Fcok%20Tutorial%201/c1np8
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Elad Goldsteen
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Svenn wrote:


Hopefully you will see these posted within a week.

The game seems pretty straight forward for the most part. The problem is that there are a few things that are just not clearly defined and could go a few ways. The only real remaining question I have is what is the proper method of using a building space that doesn't require workers? Do you still have to place a worker on that location? If not, does this mean you can place workers AND place your guild token on another action all in the same turn?
[/q]

You can split Citizens placement and you can put your guild tokens on these buildings (as long as you accomplish the action box requirement). You do not have to place a guild token on a building that you owned.
Special buildings actions (like the black market) is covered in more details in the rulebook with example that states a usage (a full turn to act) upon Guild token placement (without any "worker").
 
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Michael Lattanzia
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eg1105 wrote:


You can split Citizens placement and you can put your guild tokens on these buildings (as long as you accomplish the action box requirement). You do not have to place a guild token on a building that you owned.
Special buildings actions (like the black market) is covered in more details in the rulebook with example that states a usage (a full turn to act) upon Guild token placement (without any "worker").

Okay, so you can either place 2 citizens/1 adventurer (and your guild token if you don't own the building) OR you can place a guild token on a building that does not require a worker (such as Slave Pits or Library) in a single turn, but you cannot do both? This is what I thought, but the rulebook is not very clear about that.
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Steven Durst
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Real quick question on producing goods at the market, tower etc if you do not own the building. If I place 2 citizens to produce at the market they occupy two of the squares. Do I have to place one of my guild markers on each box (taking 2 tokens), only 1 token (that covers both citizens) or no guild tokens?

Also, I know that if you own the market and you buy the goods there you are supposed to get the gold at the end of the phase. However, what about other places you own that you pay gold to the owner (who is also you). Do you get the gold back immediately upon activating or at the end of the phase (so you cannot "reuse" that gold to buy equipment for example?
 
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Kris Ardianto
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Wario83 wrote:
Real quick question on producing goods at the market, tower etc if you do not own the building. If I place 2 citizens to produce at the market they occupy two of the squares. Do I have to place one of my guild markers on each box (taking 2 tokens), only 1 token (that covers both citizens) or no guild tokens?

Also, I know that if you own the market and you buy the goods there you are supposed to get the gold at the end of the phase. However, what about other places you own that you pay gold to the owner (who is also you). Do you get the gold back immediately upon activating or at the end of the phase (so you cannot "reuse" that gold to buy equipment for example?


If you don't own the building you place a token to mark it's yours. So, basically if you want to place 2 citizens in 2 places, you need 2 tokens.

I believe your example of market and other places like tower has the same principle. If you buy your own item, place the cost into the slot and take the item. You'll received the cost at the end of activation phase.
 
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Kris Ardianto
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Throknor wrote:
Ok. I think the send-to-work covers actions using the citizens or adventurers. Everything else that requires only a token matches the other actions like private dungeons or sending heroes or claiming buildings. Those are the only ones spelled out, but the implication is placing a lone token is a single action, as is a single buy, or placing workers. So you can not do more than 1 token-only action, or combine it with placing workers.

While the description in the manual is a little muddled, anything else would be a broken game. I find it more likely something was lost in the translation where everyone that reviewed them knew what they were supposed to mean and missed the fact something was left out.

OR
Just reviewed the actions and rules. An even simpler thought is that all actions the don't specify can take an adventurer or a citizen. That hadn't occurred to me before, but that actually makes everything cleaner. That's even simpler than what I've been putting forth, and more consistent as well.

Of course now I'm looking and the healers tent and black market both push me back to my original thinking. That anything that doesn't take a worker explicitly is just another action that should have been specified as 1.x and listed separately. So I'm back around to that position; either place workers or lone tokens, but not both. And I know workers might get marked with tokens, the point is each lone token placed is an action and you can't do more than one at a time.

Fwiw, I'm of the opinion resources are placed up front to prevent blocking from actions you can't possibly do. This flows from other placement games I've played; the only significant difference is that owners don't get paid until activated.


Hi I want to address some issues about basic principles of the actions.
Since you mentioned this in previous post, I thunk it's a good starting point to discuss this.
Basically you have 2 different actions that require workforce and tokens, sending to work or activate a building.

Sending to work action has requirement that you can choose between up to 2 citizens and 1 adventurer. So, you can either just pick one or pick 2 citizens? If you send workforce to the building which is neutral or owned by others you may only use the general action (beige background action) and place your token along to show it's yours.
Now, if I send 2 citizens into 2 different building (for example buildings that required only 1 citizen to activate), can I place 2 tokens on these citizens? Or I am limited only to place 1 token per action (whatever that is)? I assume the second one, since it's more logical and acceptable. If not, the action could easily run out before 2nd turn in the early stage of the game. Limited action plus limited workforce. If I am right, placing 2 citizens in 2 different action spaces (not your own) require 2 turns to complete all the token placement, if the free allocated workforce is not already taken by other players.

Activate building. Some of the buildings only need a token to activate, which is more a straight forward action. You only need to place a token (plus the cost if any).
 
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