xs yang
msg tools

Here are emails between FFG game producer Jason Walden and I which recently discuss about the house cards interaction in dance with dragons expansion.

Some questions involved come out of my mind and some from posts here.

I copy them here for clarification before the publication of the formal FAQ from FFG.

I think these can be considered as the temporary solution to many of our confusions.

the paragraphs with laugh are his answers

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


question1:
if I use Doran for one battle and when I reveal this card, whether or not this card should be seen as still “in my hand”, since this will change the result in the combat strength calculation phase?
For example, if before the battle I have 6 house cards (including Doran) in hand and 1 discard one, and in the battle I choose to play Doran, then should the battle strength of Doran at this time be 6 or 5?




laughAs he is being played, he is no longer considered "in your hand", nor your discard pile. Thus, in your example, his strength would be 0 (subtracting 5 for the five cards still in hand, but to no less than 0).




question3::
This is similar to question 1 but comes from Quentyn Martell. If before the battle I have 6 house cards (including Quentyn) in hand and 1 discard one, and in the battle I choose to play Quentyn, then should the battle strength of Quentyn be 2 (1+1) or 3 (1+2)?
That is, whether the revelation of Quentyn makes it a discard card at once which will increase the number of discard cards by one?




laughAs he is being played, Quentyn is not considered "in your discard pile", nor your hand. Like Doran, he's in a space in between the two locations. Similar to the "moribund" state in A Game of Thrones: The Card Game (if you've ever played that). If you follow the order of Combat in the rulebook, you'll notice on page 21 under the Combat Clean Up step (the very last step of combat) it states "Both played House cards are discarded to their respective player's discard piles…"



question4:
Margaery Tyrell: if all the requirements of her ability are fulfilled properly, will the final battle strength of her opponent be 2, even the original final battle strength of her opponent is only 1?




laughThat is correct. That is probably the one instance you wouldn't want to play her.




question5:
When Margaery Tyrell faces Mance Rayder, suppose the requirements of Margaery Tyrell ‘s ability are fulfilled properly, how I determine the final battle strength of Mance Rayder?




laughAs stated on page 19 of the rulebook, all timing conflicts in regards to House card text abilities are resolved in the order of the Iron Throne track ("turn order"). The player in the higher position of that track (closer to the top) resolves his effect first, followed by the player lower on the track.

laughSo in this case, let's assume that Baratheon is higher on the Iron Throne track. He would resolve Mance's card text ability first, making his final combat strength equal to the Wildling track. Then, the Tyrell player would resolve Margaery's card text ability, overriding the Baratheon player's previous strength entirely and making it equal 2.



question6:
When Doran Martell faces Margaery Tyrell, suppose the requirements of Margaery Tyrell ‘s ability are fulfilled properly, how I determine the final battle strength of Doran Martell?




laughSame as stated above in Question 5, the player on the higher position of the Iron Throne track would read and resolve their text ability first. Then, the next player would resolve his text ability, possibly overriding the previous player's resolution.



Moreover, in this confrontation, whether the sword symbol and stronghold symbol of Doran should be changed as indicated by his ability as usual? That is, does Margaery Tyrell’s ability change the way that Doran changes his own sword symbol and stronghold symbol?




laughMargaery's ability does not in any way have any effect on Doran's sword and fortification icon ability. He would receive those icons regardless of his final combat strength.



question7:
The activation of Melisandre’s ability is optional, not compulsory, right?




laughYes. Melisandre's ability includes the word "may" which makes it entirely optional.



If I have Melisandre card and it is my last house card unused, after I use it for a battle and I choose to activate her ability to get Mance Rayder back in hand, at this moment, does the card reshuffle mechanism activate? (which I think will put Melisandre in discard and will take all other cards back in hand), or the Melisandre’s ability activates rather than the card reshuffle mechanism?( which I think will first put Mance Rayder back in hand, and will then discard Melisandre and will not activate card reshuffle mechanism since now Mance Rayder is still in my hand)




laughThe timing on this one is understandably a little bit tricky. But try to follow the rules as literally as possible to determine the outcome. I've attached the most recent FAQ from the base game to help with the timing.

laughAs stated in the FAQ, cards with the phrase "After combat…" take effect after the Combat Clean Up step. It is during this step that House cards are discarded to the discard pile and new cards are drawn back if the card played was the last card in hand. As such, if Melisandre was the last card played, her effect wouldn't be resolved until after the other cards in the discard pile were drawn back into hand. Thus, she could only choose herself to return to hand.



question8:
The Aeron Damp Hair card says that you can discard power tokens to equal the power that you want and that's easy to understand but when do you do that? Do you say how many you're committing before you see your opponents card?
According to the basic rule or the game, the text on cards is resolved in turn order after they are revealed is they have no “immediately”, “cancel” or “ignore”. But the high turn order will bring disadvantages if two cards with bidding ability fight each other, since the player who bids second will know exactly how much he will pay to win the player who bids first.
For example, Aeron VS Qyburn
I think high turn order should bring advantages but here it seems not, is this reasonable?




laughAs stated above, the players resolve conflicts like these in turn order of the Iron Throne track. For some effects, it is beneficial to go first. For others, it is beneficial to go last. In this case, it just so happens to benefit the player in the lower position. That is perfectly acceptable and intended.

question9:
Probably I do not make myself understood and I try to restate my confusion in Question 2 again.
If before the battle I have 6 house cards (including Doran Martell) in hand and 1 discard one, and in the battle I choose to play Doran, then at this point should I count Doran as one with 0 combat strength and 5 sword symbols plus 5 fortification symbols?
My confusion about this comes up when my friend tells me that he thinks because Doran’s combat strength decreases by 4 to 0 in this occasion, the increment of his sword symbol and fortification symbol should equal to the decrement of his combat strength, which makes them to be both 4, rather than 5 (5 house cards in hand).
Which one is right? 0 plus 4+4, or 0 plus 5+5?







laughOhhh, I see the issue now. Thanks for clarifying. Sorry for the confusion on my part.

laughThe addition of sword and fort icons to Doran's card are irrelevant to his combat strength. You could almost consider those to be two separate abilities:
1) He gains +1 sword and +1 fort for each card still in your hand.
2) He suffers -1 combat strength for each card still in your hand (to a minimum of 0).



question10:
This is about the reader, Greyjoy. This card’s ability, I think, acts like this: after you win a battle, you choose one deck of westeros cards and pick one card from all cards of this deck (including the ones used as well as those unused), then reshuffle the ones used as well as those unused together to form a new deck and put that one on the top.
Because I saw some players from BGG states:
The deck consists of cards that have not yet been used. Those that have been used are considered in the "discard pile".
The Greyjoy player would be able to look at only the cards that haven't yet been used.
Just the remaining cards would be shuffled afterwards, not the discard pile.
So I wonder which opinion is correct,mine or the BGGer’s one listed above?




laughThe other BGGer is correct. In fact, I think he may be quoting my answer to him directly (I've answered this question in other emails as well).

laughThe key is in differentiating the difference between the "deck" and the "discard pile". The Reader can search any deck, which does not include the corresponding discard pile. The "remaining cards" then refers to the other cards in that deck not chosen, which also does not include the corresponding discard pile.



question11:
If you play Ser Gerris Drinkwater;

"If you win this combat, you may move one position higher on one Influence track of your choice."
And in doing you end up on the top of the fiefdom track. You would then take the Valariyn Steel Blade.

My Question is:
If the blade has been used already in this round would you acquire it in it's used state or would you be able to use it that round?




laughIt would be acquired in its used state. It flips back over at the end of every Action Phase, regardless who is the holder.
11 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Radosław Michalak
Poland
Bytom
flag msg tools
Gaming is for having fun. Fun requires clear rules.
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Great job!
Thank you.
All as I supposed them to be, but good to know it's "official"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lord_Ntanos Karkavilas
Greece
flag msg tools
A quick question:

Is it able with Melisandre to "buy" more than one house card each time you play her?

For Instance can I pay 2 PT and take both Mance (0 cost) and Mel(2 cost) and so on...

IMO it must be so, since Bara with this is merely competent-AND has to pay in order to be so- and if only one card can be retrieved his House card Deck is actually useless, since it depends on others factors, rather than strategy to be competent. Just competent, not even good...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
xs yang
msg tools
I think that she can only buy one house card back.

I do not know why but I think only in this way can M‘s ability be balanced in contrast with other characters' of other houses.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
xs yang
msg tools
Hello Jason:

I just come up with another question concerning Melisandre.
Can she buy only one card backat a time? or just any number of cards in discard pile as long as I can afford the money?

Thank you!

--------------------------------------------




She may only buy back one card, even if she can afford more.




Jason Walden
Game Producer
Fantasy Flight Games


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lord_Ntanos Karkavilas
Greece
flag msg tools
Thanks for the intel!

A bit disappointing answer though...

I think Bara's deck is really weak in the expansion. His playability resides only on random events and Tyrell/Bolton choices - Tyrell actually, since Dragonstone can be deprived in round 1 anyway.

I know they did not make the game to be balanced in this expansion, but still...



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
xs yang
msg tools
Sorry I do not think in that way.laugh


I think Bara's deck is really powerful. But considering its rather bad initial troop deployment, all factors together make Bara just a not-that-good-or-bad competitor for the winner.

With Stannis‘ ability Tyrell will get into big trouble afterwards if he wants to achieve dragonstone in the first round by using his most powerful card. That will greatly weaken its strength to confront Greyjoy and Martell, even Lannister in the south region.

And stark surely do not want to fight fiercely with Bara in the north only to find he gains no castles after suffering great loss to win(suppose he can win as victory is not a sure thing), since Bara has many troops there initially and he has MM (Mance Rayder and Melisandre combination).

And once you get those troops back from the black castle and send them to the south, there will be big opportunities for you to chase.

So, that's why I still think, as Bara, you are able to bargain over a lot of things
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seli L
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
yangxs wrote:

question6:
When Doran Martell faces Margaery Tyrell, suppose the requirements of Margaery Tyrell ‘s ability are fulfilled properly, how I determine the final battle strength of Doran Martell?

laughSame as stated above in Question 5, the player on the higher position of the Iron Throne track would read and resolve their text ability first. Then, the next player would resolve his text ability, possibly overriding the previous player's resolution.


This is rather confusingly stated and as such it's unclear what the end result would be. Margaery card says "final combat strength", and Doran card speaks only of the card's combat strength. So it is a question if Doran can actually override the Margaery effect (and Doran is also a bad example here, as Doran gets only weaker, Quentyn would better demonstrate the issue). And it is unclear what actually happens, as "Calculate Final Combat Strength" section of the rulebook doesn't really deal with this and I can see 3 different interpretations:

* Margaery card says the final combat strength is 2, so even though the opponent's card combat strength changes, the final combat strength is still 2, because house card abilities take precedence over generic rules.
* Recalculation of the initial combat strength invalidates Margaery's ability.
* Margaery's ability stays in effect, but the other card's effect takes place afterwards, so e.g. with Quentyn the strength is first reset to 2 and then Quentyn only gets the +1 bonus for discarded cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Amin
Canada
flag msg tools
http://podcastoficeandfire.com/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Seli_L wrote:
yangxs wrote:

question6:
When Doran Martell faces Margaery Tyrell, suppose the requirements of Margaery Tyrell ‘s ability are fulfilled properly, how I determine the final battle strength of Doran Martell?

laughSame as stated above in Question 5, the player on the higher position of the Iron Throne track would read and resolve their text ability first. Then, the next player would resolve his text ability, possibly overriding the previous player's resolution.


This is rather confusingly stated and as such it's unclear what the end result would be. Margaery card says "final combat strength", and Doran card speaks only of the card's combat strength. So it is a question if Doran can actually override the Margaery effect (and Doran is also a bad example here, as Doran gets only weaker, Quentyn would better demonstrate the issue). And it is unclear what actually happens, as "Calculate Final Combat Strength" section of the rulebook doesn't really deal with this and I can see 3 different interpretations:

* Margaery card says the final combat strength is 2, so even though the opponent's card combat strength changes, the final combat strength is still 2, because house card abilities take precedence over generic rules.
* Recalculation of the initial combat strength invalidates Margaery's ability.
* Margaery's ability stays in effect, but the other card's effect takes place afterwards, so e.g. with Quentyn the strength is first reset to 2 and then Quentyn only gets the +1 bonus for discarded cards.


I can definitely see how the wording makes it confusing, could have been answered better. Seems like it is a generic answer that could still fit interpretation number one, you would say the same answer to any card conflict question: possibly overriding the previous player's resolution. Possibly doesn't mean it really will, it depends on the card's actual text (whether it says final combat strength, whereas in this situation it is just doran's own strength, which is irrelevant to final combat strength). On the other hand, possibly could be interpreted differently and so the generic answer isn't much help here in determining which of your 3 interpretations to select.

I think that the spirit of the two cards (Mance and Marg) is to deal with final combat strength. Those are the only two cards that can overrule each other on that point. Other cards could pump themselves up, change their card value, which could still happen, but the final combat strength would still be 2. For example, Quentin could go up to 7 strength but the final combat strength is still 2, those two aren't incompatible. How would that be relevant to the second player? Not really, except that Qyburn could gain a sword or castle for example while that happened (and so could Doran), they would both be consistent as well with both text abilities kicking in. But the final combat strength would be what it is, 2.

Since there are so few cards that would change the outcome, it is not that relevant. Queen of thorns cancels mance, but otherwise the two final combat strength cards have nothing else that can cancel their effect.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seli L
Czech Republic
flag msg tools
Sabzevarian wrote:

I think that the spirit of the two cards (Mance and Marg) is to deal with final combat strength.


"Final combat strength" is a term defined by the rulebook and it has nothing to do with time or being definite, it's the sum of all the combat strength factors. It could be named also "complete combat strength". I don't see anything that would say it's definite, in fact the rulebook sections suggests that it may change as a result of card abilities.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Amin
Canada
flag msg tools
http://podcastoficeandfire.com/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Seli_L wrote:
Sabzevarian wrote:

I think that the spirit of the two cards (Mance and Marg) is to deal with final combat strength.


"Final combat strength" is a term defined by the rulebook and it has nothing to do with time or being definite, it's the sum of all the combat strength factors. It could be named also "complete combat strength". I don't see anything that would say it's definite, in fact the rulebook sections suggests that it may change as a result of card abilities.



Hmm, interesting. I still think the intention of Mance/Marg cards was to lock down the final combat strength, but I don't have anything to back that up beyond my gut feeling. Your opinion is equally as valid and this does indeed need FFG clarification .

Here is the exact quote from the rulebook:

Combat Step Order
1. Call for Support
2. Calculate Initial Combat Strength
3. Choose and Reveal House Cards
4. Use Valyrian Steel Blade
5. Calculate Final Combat Strength

Details on Step 5
Quote:
Step 5. Calculate Final Combat Strength
Both sides now combine their initial Combat Strength with
any modifiers accumulated by playing House cards and using the
Valyrian Steel Blade token. This final value is referred to as a player’s
Final Combat Strength.

Below is a summary of what could contribute to each player’s
final Combat Strength:
ɇ Initial Combat Strength *
ɇ The Combat Strength and applicable text abilities of the
chosen House card
ɇ The Valyrian Steel Blade’s +1 Combat Strength (if available
and used)
* Some House card text abilities may cause a player’s initial
Combat Strength to be recalculated. For example, if the text of a
revealed House card destroys an opponent’s Footman unit, the initial
Combat Strength of that opponent is reduced by 1 during this step.


I guess it works on how you interpret initial combat strength*. It could mean that when adding up to find final combat strength, keep in mind that the initial combat strength may have changed due to card abilities. Or it could mean that the 'final' combat strength changes and is a fluid thing as you said. The question is, is the final combat strength text ability 'jumping' ahead to lock down step 5, or can the 2nd card in step 3 still affect step 5.

If we are going with your interpretation, then what do you think of the Valyrian steel blade? That is listed after the cards (step 4). So if we allow the 2nd card text ability (lower on iron throne) to change the final combat strength (step 5), then the consistent thing would be to allow the Valyrian steel blade to affect final combat strength as well. That comes after using Marg/Mance after all, just like the second card text ability.

I seem to recall getting a FFG ruling that Valyrian steel blade can't be used to overrule Mance/Margaery. However, looking for it I only see the player consensus we came on that, not an official ruling. So really this is an open question as well and tied to the interpretation of final combat strength. I will send in a question to FFG.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
xs yang
msg tools

Sooorry that i am not very clear about what these confusions are.whistle



As i assume, with the help of Jason Walden's instructions, i can clearly figure out the interation of these cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Amin
Canada
flag msg tools
http://podcastoficeandfire.com/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well as promised, I talked to FFG (Jason) about it. Here is the ruling

Quote:
"Final Combat Strength" cannot be changed once established, unless interacted with by another card referring to final combat strength (in which case order of the Iron Throne would apply).

Another way to look at. Consider Mance and Marg's card effects to more accurately state something like: "Regardless of any other card effects, token modifiers, attacking/defending/supporting units present in the combat, or the Valyrian Steel Blade (which was already declared used in the previous step), your/your opponent's final combat strength is…"


They are still collecting questions for a potential ADWD faq so this may make it into there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Reinhart
Canada
flag msg tools
mb
On a related note, is there any definitive ruling on how "final combat strength" abilities (Margaery, Mance) interact with cards from the Tides of Battle deck? A rules-as-written interpretation would seem to indicate that you'd draw a card and resolve any sword/fortification/skull icons, but wouldn't use the numerical value on the card (as appropriate depending on the ability). This... seems to go against the spirit of the unpredictability added by Tides of Battle to the game, but using the values on the cards might seriously undermine these abilities.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Amin
Canada
flag msg tools
http://podcastoficeandfire.com/
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Victoly wrote:
On a related note, is there any definitive ruling on how "final combat strength" abilities (Margaery, Mance) interact with cards from the Tides of Battle deck? A rules-as-written interpretation would seem to indicate that you'd draw a card and resolve any sword/fortification/skull icons, but wouldn't use the numerical value on the card (as appropriate depending on the ability). This... seems to go against the spirit of the unpredictability added by Tides of Battle to the game, but using the values on the cards might seriously undermine these abilities.


No 'definitive' ruling but it seems pretty obvious you would play that way (no number changes, just icons and skulls).
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/867434/final-combat-strength

It is two cards and they are incredibly powerful. Spirit of TOB does not matter but if it really bothers you, you can always play a variant.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.