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Subject: Prospective art buyers and sellers rss

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The neutral evil villain known as
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I got an email from Octavian, he said:
I like this idea. How would you feel about making a brain-storming thread and then eventually compose the official one to be pinned based on the feedback? I can pin the final product once it's ready.
So anyone have more thoughts on this?


Prospective art buyers
This form was created for people searching for art. The questions below are meant to help you realize what answers you will need to have ready when soliciting an artist. It can be used as it is, or it can be a helpful tool in collecting your thoughts when drawing up your own proposal.

1. Name/theme of project: Game title, horror, fantasy, etc.
2. Collaboration or Compensation: unpaid, paid (Kickstarter and "royalties only" would be outlined below in terms)
3. What are the terms: copy of game, $25.00 ea piece of art, 10 percent royalties on published game
4. Number of pieces: 20
5. Size of finished art: playing card size, 12x12 game board, etc.
6. Minimum/maximum size of actual art: ask your printer. 2x the size of finished art is a good place to start.
7. Art style desired: Realism, cartoony, comicbook, lineart, etc.
8. Media type desired: Painting, colour pencil, digital (vector/raster), mixed media, sculpture, 3d modelling, woodcraft etc.
9. Deadline: 6 months from acceptance, How fast can the artist work?
10. Type of project art will be used in: boardgame, CCG, etc.
11. Submission format: Will artist be sending you real art or files
12. Who retains the original art: the artist or you? You will pay more if you want the originals
13. Usage: Can the artist use the art for self promotion or resell the art after a set time (5years), do you want unlimited rights, etc.
14. Description of project: paragraph about what you are looking for, expect from the artist, reference links to art you like.



This is a rough draft. Please give your thoughts on why you do, or do not like various aspects of this "form".
When ironed out, BGG will pin it to the top of the forum.
So chime in and let us know your thoughts.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Also type of media.
colour painting or BW, colour pencil or BW. digital, mix, sculptire, 3d modelling, woodcraft, layout, comic book.

Subject matter:
Children, general public, Adult. Graphic Adult. XXX.

Honestly most arent going to use it. Its been tried on many many many an art site and the result is invariably the same. Some will use it. Most wont.

 
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Maybe one of our more eloquent members could write a how-to on solicitations? a brief on what to post and how to present it?
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Omega2064 wrote:

Honestly most arent going to use it. Its been tried on many many many an art site and the result is invariably the same. Some will use it. Most wont.


If even only some use it, I think this would be worthwhile.

Those who have the sense and motivation to do their research will be rewarded with faster, cleaner, positive response and not having their solicitations degrade into a fire pit. Those who do not, well, we're aware of the consequences.
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Ira Martin
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I think requests for art should be split into two boards. One for serious paying customers and one for the endless "I want free art" threads.

As far as request formats, Format would have to be a BGG posting rule and then any non-compliant threads could get gassed.
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OmegaTraf wrote:
I think requests for art should be split into two boards. One for serious paying customers and one for the endless "I want free art" threads.



That was my first thought too. I asked a moderator if we could get two folders at the top of the forum. "Collaboration jobs" and "Compensated jobs". He suggested people put it on the subject of their posts. The problem is, people won't know to do that... I agree that this folder idea is the easiest solution. People would know right away where to put their post.

Everything else can just float down in the forum.
 
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Nicholas Vitek
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So you're actually saying you want 3 sub forums:

1) Compensated
2) Uncompensated
3) The rest of the discussions regarding design, art, etc outside of using BGG as a job board.



Also, I hope anyone who gets a paying project for art sends BGG 3% like the rest if us do when we sell stuff over the boards.


Now, my personal opinion against splitting the board into comp/noncomp is that it is open for debate what compensated means. If I offer 10% of profits, does that go into comp or uncomp?


Also, when you split the board, you split the artists artificially. Those who believe they are 'too good' for uncomp art may miss that perfect pitch for a game that they identify with and actually might like taking a chance on.


And what do we gain? We gain two seconds it takes to open a post and realize it isn't paying. By we, I mean the artists. I don't think the benefits (a few seconds) out way the cons.
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Very valid points. This is what I hoped to achieve with this post.
A good discussion on the subject.

My personal thought is: royalties are something added to a person's compensated package to make up for paying them a smaller fee. Not replacing a fee.

but that's why we're here. to hash this out and see if the idea has merit.

Maybe the form is a better way to go, do you have thoughts on that?
 
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John A. White
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I would like to see this "Work"

Without BGG forum development of an art market.
I think we could Standardize payment methods. Please continue this thread to build the standard.


REASONS
Re-Stating the obvious the designers in here often collaborate to bring the 2 unique sides together (3 counting Graphic design).

Both sides NEEDING money. One side needs it to pay the other needs not to work for free. Both want each other with money as a road block.

Most BGG Designers can't afford art GREAT but are willing to give more to acquire it (a dream). Artist can't afford to waste time on getting burned by designers willing to exploit them. With NO upfront payment it is ridiculous to have ANY expectations. On the other hand artist WANT work.

There is an impasse and designers who pay money get results.

SOLUTION
I think Proof of concept is required for a bidding process to be created. Here is how to validate the game design:
PnP/Download rules
Youtube walk though demo (primary/important)
Pen Pal prototype reviews.
BGG game development thread

If we could validate the design in here (create a process now) without going to a con $$$ or POD work $$.

There needs to be a fail safe and I think it is stated risk and fallback ownership/payment agreements.

Process history!!! and Point system from fellow BGG designers. Take each OFFICIAL deal as if its your life blood. And build a POSITIVE History of deals gone good.. ops this requires BGG tracking Development. we got to invent a history of agreed deals. Those who are cynical or lazy would be weeded out.


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Ira Martin
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I guess I withdraw the idea that there should be extra boards for pay or no pay based on the comments above.

There HAS to be a clear and required format for art requests. Inability to follow the required format should have the thread deleted.

I like the idea that proven paying customers be given some kind of merit that may give them favor for future art requests.
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Nicholas Vitek
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Maybe a system awarded micro badge for artist/publisher.
If publisher pays for art from artist via BGG, publisher/person gets a MB "I Pay for Art". Artist gets a MB "Art for Compensation".

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We do already have a feedback system in play for trades, maybe we could use that scripting?

I worry a bit that we may end up with a "blacklist" which would be contested and a pain. On my sculpting site you have to be vetted somehow to become a seller. I don't know what that entails tho.
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It would have to be a yes he pays or no he doesn't type of reference with feelings left aside or it could turn into a hot mess. If someone isn't happy with performance but original deal is still kept. What do you do?
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John A. White
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So let's make a Fake bid.

Request: New sci-fi art (60 Illustrations No more no less) For GAME SO-N-So
youtube link

Payment: 20% of the Kickstarter ONLY. Funds at $15,000 ($3,000 payment minimum)

FALLBACK: Plan B, If published I owe you 40% of my 5% royalty.
Plan F,FAIL, Zero compensation if unpublished, Art Rights returned to you. NOTE: I will kickstart this. Maybe in here you say "I am aware failure to pay is a negative mark on my BGG art program thing"

Someone improve on this...^^
It would be so cool if we could build a track record!




 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Artists get payed per piece. So it would have to be calculated based on the artists personal fees vs that the publisher is willing to fork out vs skill and speed.

And that varies alot from one to the next even within the same media.

Some artists will opt into a game for a greatly reduced fee or for free because they really like the game and/or want the prestige of being the artist for something they think will be big. Or for other kickbacks.
 
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Omega2064 wrote:
Artists get payed per piece. So it would have to be calculated based on the artists personal fees vs that the publisher is willing to fork out vs skill and speed.
And that varies alot from one to the next even within the same media.

So, you think a per piece rate...that is fine

I was thinking If they gamble on assuming a game would fund and knowing the percentage if it funds they stand to make alot more.

You could do a high-bred Flat rate + 2% of KS.


Omega2064 wrote:

Some artists will opt into a game for a greatly reduced fee or for free because they really like the game and/or want the prestige of being the artist for something they think will be big. Or for other kickbacks.

Agreed, but you wouldn't see that in the job posting would you?
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aVoidGames wrote:
Omega2064 wrote:
Artists get payed per piece. So it would have to be calculated based on the artists personal fees vs that the publisher is willing to fork out vs skill and speed.
And that varies alot from one to the next even within the same media.


So, you think a per piece rate...that is fine

I was thinking If they gamble on assuming a game would fund and knowing the percentage if it funds they stand to make alot more.

You could do a high-bred Flat rate + 2% of KS.


That is from personal experience working with and talking to CCG artists.

As I often say, art heavy games can get very expensive very fast, potentially exceeding the costs of minis games in very short order.

I once plotted out how much it would cost me to fund a complete 200 card game from one of the better artists. At 250$/painting that came to 50k US. 100k if I'd gone with Ne Ne Thomas, and 20k with another artist but their output was slooooow. Just funding 2 cards out of a proposed 10 card set set me back over 600$. Other artists offer higher or lower. The faster you can pump out art the more you can command for fees.

And to prospective buyers. Keep this in mind! Dont set absurdly short time schedules if your game is art heavy. This isnt magic, even line art can take some time depending on subject. Paintings and anything hyperdetail or complex will take far longer. Get an estimate from the artist on how long per piece to expect. Then double that for your safety margin.
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aVoidGames wrote:
Omega2064 wrote:
Artists get payed per piece. So it would have to be calculated based on the artists personal fees vs that the publisher is willing to fork out vs skill and speed.
And that varies alot from one to the next even within the same media.

So, you think a per piece rate...that is fine

I was thinking If they gamble on assuming a game would fund and knowing the percentage if it funds they stand to make alot more.



In theory yes. That is one of the hot buttons experienced artists and ones "building a porfolio" scream at each other about. The problem with royalties is you have NO control over them. I did illustrations for 3 books, 15 years ago, for royalties and receive a check for around 15 bucks every 6 months. To date, that's less than 500 dollars. Soon they will be out of print and I am done. It's a way for publishers to not pay you upfront. Of course everyone hopes it will hit big and we all make lots of money, but if it doesn't...
I should have got the money when I did them.

Don't be afraid to turn down work, more will come. It always does.
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John A. White
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So the idea I had was a KS percentage that would pay X if it funds and Profit if it's over 100%... Like a partner.

After the KS you have no royalties to pay.

This thread is about starving artist and starving designers partnering to create "finished" work.

With that said, what real options for payment are there? I can only think of 3.

1. You pay the artist out of pocket (not relevant to this thread)
2. You get published and use that money to pay a promised payment.
3. You kickstart and get funded and set aside money for the artist.

If the artist gambles on your proven game design then, there should be a Proven SUPERIOR profit to Build this method up. and that is through a nice percentage of the KS.

I understand telling an artist "I promises you $100 each card image" But if it were me I would want a base value and then a Percent on top.


 
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aVoidGames wrote:


With that said, what real options for payment are there? I can only think of 3.

1. You pay the artist out of pocket (not relevant to this thread)
2. You get published and use that money to pay a promised payment.
3. You kickstart and get funded and set aside money for the artist.




It's completely relevant to this thread. This form is just a starting point to get buyers thinking about how they need to get their ducks in a row before approaching artists. Your comments are things they need to think about. How ARE you going to fund the art? I would put your ideas on how you want to work out payment in the "terms" area of the form.
 
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Nicholas Vitek
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My three main projects today's have been paid for as follows:

1) Single payment upon delivery of finished artwork, long lead time so artist could work in between other projects.
2) Percent of KS (after fees, minus shipping estimate) paid in a lump sum after games printed. Ongoing royalty payment for use of established IP and extra artwork as needed for promotional and expansion items.
3) Percent of KS (after fees and minus shipping), with minimum value should KS not reach funding.

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John "Omega" Williams
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I wouldnt expect too much of a royalty for a KS game unless your initial art fee was particularly low to begin with, or purely from the KS. That could, for a publisher be like paying for the art twice, which is likely allready a huge chunk of the cost.

But nab it if you can.
 
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For #2, the ongoing royalties is mainly for the IP used, an existing IP,and ongoing artwork.
 
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Size of art.
This is badly misleading. The artist needs to know the acceptible size of the the finished art to be used. Nit the size of the product.

Some publishers want larger pieces. Both of my comission pieces for the CCG measure 13 x 16 inches. But I've seen the priginals for gamebooks measiring up to double that for some odd reason. Same goes for comics. The actual art pages tend to be at least 2x the size of the print.

Seems to be no set patten as way back art for Magic was all over in size ranges as one example. Moreso as no two artists seem to use the same scales, or even consistent scales.

For an art buyer youd need to state the min and max size of a piece.
For a artist youd need to state the min and max size you can handle.

Deadline.
Artists should give an estimate of speed per piece. 1 week? 2 weeks? 1 month each?

Who retains the originals.
Usually the buyer since they are forking out gallery prices. If the artist keeps the art then your fee will have to likely be substantially lower. Depends on the company. But I payed for the art. Id sure as hell better be getting the original at those prices.
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John A. White
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It's "wonderful" but empty unless there is a track record...

If this was done by a MOD 1.0 POST tracking like contests it might become relevant.

Active Projects in ARTSTART

Bob n skippy - Zombies
Joe n peter - airlifter


ARTIST Track Record
So-nSo1 Good (5) Negatived (0) Complaints (1)publicly track when you complain about others.
So-nSo2 Good (5) Negatived (0) Complaints (1)
So-nSo3 Good (5) Negatived (0) Complaints (1)

DESIGNERS Track Record
So-nSo4 Good (5) Negatived (0) Complaints (1)
So-nSo5 Good (5) Negatived (0) Complaints (1)
So-nSo6 Good (5) Negatived (0) Complaints (1)

both parties determined to do a good deal
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