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Subject: Clarification on the Order of Resolving Actions and Gaining Bonus Actions rss

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James Sheahan
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Hi,

Rialto's a great and simple game that delivers some decent decision-making. However, the rules are very unclear on one point which can make a big difference.

The rules are clear about the order in which cards are played but my questions are: When, and in what player order, are the card actions resolved? When are the bonus actions taken?

There seem to be two options:

OPTION 1: Players all get one chance to play cards (as the rules describe) and then, only after everyone has had a chance to play cards, do the actions then get executed (and the player who played the most cards includes the bonus action in when it is their turn to execute their actions). These actions are executed in exactly the same player order as the cards were played.

OPTION 2: Players play cards and execute the actions immediately. Once everyone has had a chance to play cards and has executed the relevant actions, the bonus action is executed by the player who played the most cards.

We played it using OPTION 1. Is this correct?

I ask because it can make a big difference. A good example of this is the Doge card sub-phase. The moment (and order in which) the player's markers are moved along the Doge track (in the Doge card sub-phase) can alter who gets the bonus. The following example shows this (and happened in our game)
Player A and player B are both on space 1 of the Doge track (with player A on top) and both players play 2 Doge cards. USING OPTION 2 players move their pieces the moment they play their cards, so player A will move to space 3 first and then player B will move on top of them. Then the bonus action is awarded which means player B gets the bonus and moves to space 4. USING OPTION 2 players all play cards and then the bonus is allocated to one player BEFORE the actions are executed. In this case, player A would be awarded the bonus (as they are currently on top of player B on space 1) and move to space 4 whilst player B moves to space 3.


Plus, the order/timing can affect other sub-phases too such as when players move councilmen to the board. This can be important if both players have no councilmen in their personal reserves so will be moving councilmen from other areas. If a player ahead of you in turn order will get the bonus action, then they will move 1 extra councilman before your actions using Option 1, but will move 1 extra councilman after your actions using Option 2. (Again, this happened during our game.)

Finally, Option 2 doesn't make much sense in the building card sub-phase as players only know if they will get the +1 building bonus AFTER they have taken a building.



I hope that all makes sense as it's a tricky one to explain. The game is really good but the rules are very unclear about the order in which things happen (and there is no example of a phase being fully resolved).

Our group of experienced gamers settled on OPTION 1. It's a bit more drawn out as you go round once to play cards and again to execute actions, but seems the only way that the building sub-phase bonus makes sense. (Option 2 is quicker as you go round just once with players executing actions as you go).

Cheers,

James.
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Steve Duff
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Eisley wrote:
The rules are clear about the order in which cards are played but my questions are: When, and in what player order, are the card actions resolved? When are the bonus actions taken?

There seem to be two options:

OPTION 1: Players all get one chance to play cards (as the rules describe) and then, only after everyone has had a chance to play cards, do the actions then get executed (and the player who played the most cards includes the bonus action in when it is their turn to execute their actions). These actions are executed in exactly the same player order as the cards were played.

OPTION 2: Players play cards and execute the actions immediately. Once everyone has had a chance to play cards and has executed the relevant actions, the bonus action is executed by the player who played the most cards.

We played it using OPTION 1. Is this correct?


Doing actions immediately like Option 2 is completely wrong, as you would never be forced to commit to a move before knowing the quantity of cards from the remaining players. And as you said, the building action doesn't work with this interpretation, thus proving it's wrong.

I think it's Option 3, as you have some small details incorrect:

A) Cards: Start player lays down cards and activates buildings if needed. Remaining players follow one at a time, in clockwise order.

B) Determine who gets the bonus, based on cards played and doge order.

C) Actions: In Doge order, each player does their actions. The player with the bonus uses his bonus as his turn arrives.

Adjusting the doge track while you're in the middle of determining the bonus would simply be way too gamey and error prone, and must be wrong.
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Ralph Bruhn
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:

I think it's Option 3, as you have some small details incorrect:

A) Cards: Start player lays down cards and activates buildings if needed. Remaining players follow one at a time, in clockwise order.

B) Determine who gets the bonus, based on cards played and doge order.

C) Actions: In Doge order, each player does their actions. The player with the bonus uses his bonus as his turn arrives.

Adjusting the doge track while you're in the middle of determining the bonus would simply be way too gamey and error prone, and must be wrong.
Perfect!
To be honest, I thought that the the rule was clear enough for ALL cases:
"Only for PLAYING the cards, the clockwise order has to be used, in ALL other cases the doge order is relevant."
It makes no sense to us to give examples for this, because there are so many tiny decisions where it could have been mentioned (eg: order, in which the green buildings have to be played / order, in which the steps on the doge track have to be performed / order, in which the buildings are to take, when there is only one building of a type left / order, in which the blue#3-building has to be played ...) that it would be almost impossible to give examples for all these cases.

And the answer to to ALL these special cases is always the same: "Look at the doge track!"

It really is so easy ...
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James Sheahan
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I think the rule for using the Doge track to determine turn order is clear so that doesn't need describing at every relevant point throughout the rules. However, my question was more about when the card actions get executed, which is something I don't think is clear in the rules.

The Phase 2 rules describe the various elements of playing and executing cards but not quite how they flow and fit together. Playing cards in clockwise order is clear, but executing them in another order (during the same phase) after assessing them isn't clear if you don't already know that's how it's played.

Unfortunately, the rules can be interpreted a few ways - especially by my group of experienced players who sometimes try to interpret the rules in the way that benefits them In most cases, it's not too important, but it would have been useful to explain the flow which (as clarified by UnknownParkerBrother) is play cards in clockwise order, assess bonus winner, execute cards in Doge order.

Thanks everyone.
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Ralph Bruhn
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Eisley wrote:
The Phase 2 rules describe the various elements of playing and executing cards but not quite how they flow and fit together. Playing cards in clockwise order is clear, but executing them in another order (during the same phase) after assessing them isn't clear if you don't already know that's how it's played.

Unfortunately, the rules can be interpreted a few ways - especially by my group of experienced players who sometimes try to interpret the rules in the way that benefits them In most cases, it's not too important, but it would have been useful to explain the flow which (as clarified by UnknownParkerBrother) is play cards in clockwise order, assess bonus winner, execute cards in Doge order.
Sorry that I have to correct you, but it IS explained explicitly!
Besides the general rule, that the Doge tracks is relevant in all cases besides playing the cards it is mentioned here: Look at page 4, Chapter "Notes", first entry: "The Doge track breaks any ties for the number of cards played and defines play order when carrying out actions (see p.2)".
I really don't know how to make this rule clearer - and I don't think that there's any interpretation room for your friends when you show them this passage ...
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Aleš Matas
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barandur wrote:
Eisley wrote:
The Phase 2 rules describe the various elements of playing and executing cards but not quite how they flow and fit together. Playing cards in clockwise order is clear, but executing them in another order (during the same phase) after assessing them isn't clear if you don't already know that's how it's played.

Unfortunately, the rules can be interpreted a few ways - especially by my group of experienced players who sometimes try to interpret the rules in the way that benefits them In most cases, it's not too important, but it would have been useful to explain the flow which (as clarified by UnknownParkerBrother) is play cards in clockwise order, assess bonus winner, execute cards in Doge order.
Sorry that I have to correct you, but it IS explained explicitly!
Besides the general rule, that the Doge tracks is relevant in all cases besides playing the cards it is mentioned here: Look at page 4, Chapter "Notes", first entry: "The Doge track breaks any ties for the number of cards played and defines play order when carrying out actions (see p.2)".
I really don't know how to make this rule clearer - and I don't think that there's any interpretation room for your friends when you show them this passage ...


Dear rule writer. This game has one of the most poorly written rules I read throughout last years (and I read many you could believe). Many things are totally unclear and leave lot of space for various explanations. This thread is only one good example. Go through the bgg rialto rules discussions and you'll see. I read here quite a few times the magical answer "doge track ... bla bla" instead of simply answering the question.

But back to the problem mentioned in this thread. HOW SHOULD I PLAY PHASE II Doge CARDS?

Rules are "clear" isn't it:
item 1 "Cards" - thus one after the other will play the cards
item 2 "Actions" - everybody play their actions
item 3 "Bonus" - the player gain bonus, in case of tie the doge track rule apply.

Thus the guy to whom you replied "Perfectly" is wrong? ... don't know.

The game is ok, simple and smooth. But the way in which the rules are written drag it down.

You should rather be open to the players instead of trying to show them how stupid they are, that they had not understood your greatly written rules.
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James Sheahan
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alladjex wrote:
Dear rule writer. This game has one of the most poorly written rules I read throughout last years (and I read many you could believe). Many things are totally unclear and leave lot of space for various explanations. This thread is only one good example. Go through the bgg rialto rules discussions and you'll see. I read here quite a few times the magical answer "doge track ... bla bla" instead of simply answering the question.

The game is ok, simple and smooth. But the way in which the rules are written drag it down.

You should rather be open to the players instead of trying to show them how stupid they are, that they had not understood your greatly written rules.


I could not agree more.


barandur wrote:
Sorry that I have to correct you, but it IS explained explicitly!
Besides the general rule, that the Doge tracks is relevant in all cases besides playing the cards it is mentioned here: Look at page 4, Chapter "Notes", first entry: "The Doge track breaks any ties for the number of cards played and defines play order when carrying out actions (see p.2)".
I really don't know how to make this rule clearer - and I don't think that there's any interpretation room for your friends when you show them this passage ...


Hi Ralph,

I hadn't noticed that you had replied to me some time ago. The new post by Ales made me notice it. In answer to your reply to me, I totally disagree with you.

You can not tell me that my opinion that the rules are unclear is wrong. Please do not try to tell me my opinion is wrong as, my opinion, by definition is my own and not for you to decide. The fact that I read the rules carefully and still did not understand clearly how the game was played is proof that they are not clear. My friends and I were able to interpret them in different ways. You said you don't know to make the rules more clear but Steve Duff did exactly that.

My comments about the Rialto rules are feedback, not criticism. I understand that you think the rules are clear. Please pay me the courtesy of understanding that I do not (and I am a very experienced gamer too). I think the rules will seem clear if you know how the game is played already, but I can see there is ambiguity as they are not described in the way play progresses (but, instead, the separate mechanics are stated individually). Comments from other players including the post from Ales today shows I am not alone.

I don't won't enter into any further on-going argument about this as we have made our points. I respect your feelings you think the rules are clear. My feelings are that they are not. We shall have to agree to disagree.
 
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Ralph Bruhn
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alladjex wrote:
Dear rule writer. This game has one of the most poorly written rules I read throughout last years (and I read many you could believe). Many things are totally unclear and leave lot of space for various explanations. This thread is only one good example. Go through the bgg rialto rules discussions and you'll see. I read here quite a few times the magical answer "doge track ... bla bla" instead of simply answering the question.

But back to the problem mentioned in this thread. HOW SHOULD I PLAY PHASE II Doge CARDS?

Rules are "clear" isn't it:
item 1 "Cards" - thus one after the other will play the cards
item 2 "Actions" - everybody play their actions
item 3 "Bonus" - the player gain bonus, in case of tie the doge track rule apply.

Thus the guy to whom you replied "Perfectly" is wrong? ... don't know.

The game is ok, simple and smooth. But the way in which the rules are written drag it down.

You should rather be open to the players instead of trying to show them how stupid they are, that they had not understood your greatly written rules.
Hm - I do not know how to answer your posting. Someone asks a question (here or in another thread). I answer it or I confirm, if someone else already gave the right answer. And if the answer to the question could be found in the rule, I explain where you can find it.
I really don't know why you got the impression that I try to show the players how stupid they are.

If you do feel so: This is clearly not my intention, maybe you misunderstand me because I'm not a native English speaker.
If you read the other Rialto-Threads, you could have recognized that I admit mistakes when we made them (eg the text on the building "blue #3") and do NOT consider my rules as "perfect".

So from my point of view there's no need to be ironic or even insult me.

To the specific question of this thread: If I got you right, you state that the answer to the question "How are the doge cards in Phase II are to be played?" is still not given? And you are complaining about the "magical answer: "doge track""?
What else can I say? "Everyone does his steps on the doge track in the order of the doge stack" IS the answer. This means that the one, who is first ranked on the doge track comes first and so on.

Maybe I'm too stupid to understand your question but I don't know what else I could say to make it clearer to you.
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Ralph, I think the specific issue here is that the "perfect" answer that Steve game does not exactly line up with the rules (though I agree it makes the most sense).

As Aleš said, here is the order that the English rules present it:

item 1 "Cards" - thus one after the other will play the cards
item 2 "Actions" - everybody play their actions
item 3 "Bonus" - the player gain bonus, in case of tie the doge track rule apply.

This could lead to an interpretation if you run through them in order that everyone executes their actions and then determine who won the bonus afterward. In the case of the Doge action, you could have a change in who is leading in the Doge track which could impact who wins the bonus in case of a tie.

The rules could be a bit more clear here that the bonus winner is determined prior to the execution of the actions.
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Ralph Bruhn
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Eisley wrote:
alladjex wrote:
Dear rule writer. This game has one of the most poorly written rules I read throughout last years (and I read many you could believe). Many things are totally unclear and leave lot of space for various explanations. This thread is only one good example. Go through the bgg rialto rules discussions and you'll see. I read here quite a few times the magical answer "doge track ... bla bla" instead of simply answering the question.

The game is ok, simple and smooth. But the way in which the rules are written drag it down.

You should rather be open to the players instead of trying to show them how stupid they are, that they had not understood your greatly written rules.


I could not agree more.


barandur wrote:
Sorry that I have to correct you, but it IS explained explicitly!
Besides the general rule, that the Doge tracks is relevant in all cases besides playing the cards it is mentioned here: Look at page 4, Chapter "Notes", first entry: "The Doge track breaks any ties for the number of cards played and defines play order when carrying out actions (see p.2)".
I really don't know how to make this rule clearer - and I don't think that there's any interpretation room for your friends when you show them this passage ...


Hi Ralph,

I hadn't noticed that you had replied to me some time ago. The new post by Ales made me notice it. In answer to your reply to me, I totally disagree with you.

You can not tell me that my opinion that the rules are unclear is wrong. Please do not try to tell me my opinion is wrong as, my opinion, by definition is my own and not for you to decide. The fact that I read the rules carefully and still did not understand clearly how the game was played is proof that they are not clear. My friends and I were able to interpret them in different ways. You said you don't know to make the rules more clear but Steve Duff did exactly that.

My comments about the Rialto rules are feedback, not criticism. I understand that you think the rules are clear. Please pay me the courtesy of understanding that I do not (and I am a very experienced gamer too). I think the rules will seem clear if you know how the game is played already, but I can see there is ambiguity as they are not described in the way play progresses (but, instead, the separate mechanics are stated individually). Comments from other players including the post from Ales today shows I am not alone.

I don't won't enter into any further on-going argument about this as we have made our points. I respect your feelings you think the rules are clear. My feelings are that they are not. We shall have to agree to disagree.
Hi James,
It looks like there's a "I-know-it-all-better-tone" in my quoted posting that was not intended - I'm sorry for that ...
Of course you're right: If you can't answer a question out of the rule, be it that you don't find it or if you find passages that explain things different, it IS unclear.

I thought that if I tell you where the answer to your question can be found, the rule becomes clear to you then. Obviously it does not ...

Is it because the quoted passage does not answer your question? Or is it because this passage is poorly positioned? Or does it have another reason?
It would be nice if you could give me an answer to this question because I always want to improve my rule-writing. As I said: I THOUGHT my answer was clear enough, but after your last two postings I learned that it is not ...




 
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Aleš Matas
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barandur wrote:
alladjex wrote:
Dear rule writer. This game has one of the most poorly written rules I read throughout last years (and I read many you could believe). Many things are totally unclear and leave lot of space for various explanations. This thread is only one good example. Go through the bgg rialto rules discussions and you'll see. I read here quite a few times the magical answer "doge track ... bla bla" instead of simply answering the question.

But back to the problem mentioned in this thread. HOW SHOULD I PLAY PHASE II Doge CARDS?

Rules are "clear" isn't it:
item 1 "Cards" - thus one after the other will play the cards
item 2 "Actions" - everybody play their actions
item 3 "Bonus" - the player gain bonus, in case of tie the doge track rule apply.

Thus the guy to whom you replied "Perfectly" is wrong? ... don't know.

The game is ok, simple and smooth. But the way in which the rules are written drag it down.

You should rather be open to the players instead of trying to show them how stupid they are, that they had not understood your greatly written rules.
Hm - I do not know how to answer your posting. Someone asks a question (here or in another thread). I answer it or I confirm, if someone else already gave the right answer. And if the answer to the question could be found in the rule, I explain where you can find it.
I really don't know why you got the impression that I try to show the players how stupid they are.

If you do feel so: This is clearly not my intention, maybe you misunderstand me because I'm not a native English speaker.
If you read the other Rialto-Threads, you could have recognized that I admit mistakes when we made them (eg the text on the building "blue #3") and do NOT consider my rules as "perfect".

So from my point of view there's no need to be ironic or even insult me.

To the specific question of this thread: If I got you right, you state that the answer to the question "How are the doge cards in Phase II are to be played?" is still not given? And you are complaining about the "magical answer: "doge track""?
What else can I say? "Everyone does his steps on the doge track in the order of the doge stack" IS the answer. This means that the one, who is first ranked on the doge track comes first and so on.

Maybe I'm too stupid to understand your question but I don't know what else I could say to make it clearer to you.


You are right. I'm sorry. No need to be rude.

I'm not the native speaker, thus maybe I misunderstood. But I still do not understand how to play the mentioned situation and I understand the rules as Rodego has written.

Can you explicitly explain how the situation will be resolved step by step when 2 player are on the same space of Doge track and both play same amount of cards during Doge stage. If it will be accompanied with explanation why this is according to the rules it would be great.

Thanks.
 
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Ralph Bruhn
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Rodego wrote:
Ralph, I think the specific issue here is that the "perfect" answer that Steve game does not exactly line up with the rules (though I agree it makes the most sense).

As Aleš said, here is the order that the English rules present it:

item 1 "Cards" - thus one after the other will play the cards
item 2 "Actions" - everybody play their actions
item 3 "Bonus" - the player gain bonus, in case of tie the doge track rule apply.

This could lead to an interpretation if you run through them in order that everyone executes their actions and then determine who won the bonus afterward. In the case of the Doge action, you could have a change in who is leading in the Doge track which could impact who wins the bonus in case of a tie.

The rules could be a bit more clear here that the bonus winner is determined prior to the execution of the actions.
Thank you!!! Now I know what I missed the whole time ... modest
I think there are 2 questions hidden in the OP and I only answered one of them ...

The OP stated in th "option 1" that the action order is executed in the order the card were played. This was the question I answered with "No, the action are performed in the order of the doge track."

I have to admit that I overlooked the second question: WHEN does the winner gets his bonus? The answer is: The winner gets his bonus BEFORE he plays his action. Considering the doge cards: The first one who moves is the one who leads on the Doge track - and when it comes to the player who plays the most cards, he moves his additional step THEN.

This is, what Steve wrote in "The player with the bonus uses his bonus as his turn arrives."
The rule says at this point: "The player who has played the most cards gets a bonus in addition to his actions." which I thought would clear enough - but obviously isn't.

I hope that this is the point that James and Ales are missing in my answers ... modest
 
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Ralph Bruhn
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alladjex wrote:
Can you explicitly explain how the situation will be resolved step by step when 2 player are on the same space of Doge track and both play same amount of cards during Doge stage. If it will be accompanied with explanation why this is according to the rules it would be great.

Thanks.
If 2 players are on the same space of the Doge track, the one who is on top is first. See page 2 "Doge track": "When two or more counters occupy the same space on the Doge track, the order between them is from top to bottom."

Let's say player A is first on the doge track, C is second and B third.
The discs of B and C are on the same space of the Doge track, but the disc of C is on top.

Now A starts with playing cards, because he is first on the Doge track (page 4, General rules, first point: "Starting player: In the first stage (A), the player furthest ahead on the Doge track is the starting player.)"

A plays 1 card, B plays 2 cards, C plays 2 cards.

Check who has played the most cards: It's B and C. Check, who of them is better on the Doge track: It's C. So C gets the Bonus (page 4, General rules, 4th point: "The player who has played the most cards gets a bonus in addition to his actions (see ex. 1)."

Perform the actions: A starts and goes 1 step. Then C goes 3 steps. Then B goes 2 steps (page 4, Notes, first point: "The Doge track breaks any ties for the number of cards played and defines play order when carrying out actions.")

I hope this example answers ALL questions (including the questions I overlooked in my first answers ...)
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Harold Coleman
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barandur wrote:
alladjex wrote:
Can you explicitly explain how the situation will be resolved step by step when 2 player are on the same space of Doge track and both play same amount of cards during Doge stage. If it will be accompanied with explanation why this is according to the rules it would be great.

Thanks.
If 2 players are on the same space of the Doge track, the one who is on top is first. See page 2 "Doge track": "When two or more counters occupy the same space on the Doge track, the order between them is from top to bottom."

Let's say player A is first on the doge track, C is second and B third.
The discs of B and C are on the same space of the Doge track, but the disc of C is on top.

Now A starts with playing cards, because he is first on the Doge track (page 4, General rules, first point: "Starting player: In the first stage (A), the player furthest ahead on the Doge track is the starting player.)"

A plays 1 card, B plays 2 cards, C plays 2 cards.

Check who has played the most cards: It's B and C. Check, who of them is better on the Doge track: It's C. So C gets the Bonus (page 4, General rules, 4th point: "The player who has played the most cards gets a bonus in addition to his actions (see ex. 1)."

Perform the actions: A starts and goes 1 step. Then C goes 3 steps. Then B goes 2 steps (page 4, Notes, first point: "The Doge track breaks any ties for the number of cards played and defines play order when carrying out actions.")

I hope this example answers ALL questions (including the questions I overlooked in my first answers ...)


I "think" you are explicit with your explanation, but the result of this rule makes no sense, to me anyway. Let's say Player A in your example above also played 2 or more cards. He will clearly retain his lead on the Doge track and move his marker first. Now C moves 2 spaces and... then B moves 2 spaces putting his marker on top of C's marker, thus moving ahead of C on the Doge track! I realize this is the rule, but what did he do to deserve to jump ahead of C and what did C do or not do to deserve losing his placement. In my mind, I just can't wrap my head around this and think they should rather move together, retaining their original order.

And somehow the clockwise playing of cards kinds of goes against the "everything happens in Doge order" context of the game. Why was the playing of cards chosen clockwise and not Doge order? Clockwise order places you at the mercy of other players and the amount of cards they play in determining player order for the next action. Whereas if playing the cards was done in Doge order, there might be a viable strategy for NOT advancing on the Doge track in order to play last every card round. I'm not sure if this is enough of an incentive to try that strategy due to losing every tie-breaker, but it sure would make this phase of the game more interesting and less random. And it would make those further along on the Doge track commit more cards sooner if they want the bonus.
 
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Ralph Bruhn
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hgcoleman wrote:
I "think" you are explicit with your explanation, but the result of this rule makes no sense, to me anyway. Let's say Player A in your example above also played 2 or more cards. He will clearly retain his lead on the Doge track and move his marker first. Now C moves 2 spaces and... then B moves 2 spaces putting his marker on top of C's marker, thus moving ahead of C on the Doge track! I realize this is the rule, but what did he do to deserve to jump ahead of C and what did C do or not do to deserve losing his placement. In my mind, I just can't wrap my head around this and think they should rather move together, retaining their original order.

And somehow the clockwise playing of cards kinds of goes against the "everything happens in Doge order" context of the game. Why was the playing of cards chosen clockwise and not Doge order? Clockwise order places you at the mercy of other players and the amount of cards they play in determining player order for the next action. Whereas if playing the cards was done in Doge order, there might be a viable strategy for NOT advancing on the Doge track in order to play last every card round. I'm not sure if this is enough of an incentive to try that strategy due to losing every tie-breaker, but it sure would make this phase of the game more interesting and less random. And it would make those further along on the Doge track commit more cards sooner if they want the bonus.


1. There are 2 reasons why we don't draw the discs on the doge part together: On the one hand it makes the rules more consistent ("everything besides the playing order is resolved by the doge track"), otherwise we would have to introduce a "parallel action" instead which would make the rules more difficult to explain.
The second point is that this change, which looks so small, would make the doge track TOO strong. It's difficult enough to catch up on this track, so this is a way to fill the doge track with "more life".

2. You are right: It is one kind of an inconsistency left, when we do the card playing in clockwise direction. But the reason for this is quite simple: We tried playing the cards in doge track order - and it just didn't work.
If EVERY round is played according to the doge track order, it would be a DISadvantage to proceed on the doge track! I'd just try to get the green or blue buildings which makes you flexible or provide you with many cards and can then react to what the other players do.
The balance of all elements would have been lost, if we had weakened the doge track this much. Why bother with playing cards for the doge track, when there's no real advantage?

Besides this: There IS a viable strategy for NOT advancing on the doge track! It depends on how much the other players are proceeding: When they use many cards here, they can't use them for actions that YOU perform then.

But as I always say about "my" games: Feel free to try your ideas: If you find that they please you, use them as a houserules!
But please don't judge to early about the current rules: The value of the doge track is easy to see, so that could look too strong in the first plays. But there are other ways to play with no or not much use of the doge track. I hope you can discover the "sense" of the rules in your coming games ...
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Curt Carpenter
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I'm a little late to this thread (just played first game last night), but after having to interrupt the game to find this answer, I just wanted to pile on, and say that the magical answer "doge track" must be out of mana or something, because it simply doesn't answer the question (this thread does answer it; thanks UPB!). We almost aborted the game when on turn one when we had strong disagreements on who gets the bonus for the doge cards. Again, with a group of very experienced gamers. A simple, "play cards in turn order, determine who gets the bonus, perform actions in doge order (including bonus for the player that gets it)" would have done wonders. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the rules lay out the sequence for phase II as Cards, Actions, Bonus, with no mention of when Bonus is calculated, leaving the reading to assume it's after the actions. Astute players would notice that in the building sub-phase of phase II, it makes no sense to award the bonus after the actions have been played (and thus concluding that the bonus must be awarded first is the only thing that makes sense), but that's of little help when faced with the problem on the first doge cards and nothing but the rules as written to guide you.
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Ralph Bruhn
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curtc wrote:
I'm a little late to this thread (just played first game last night), but after having to interrupt the game to find this answer, I just wanted to pile on, and say that the magical answer "doge track" must be out of mana or something, because it simply doesn't answer the question (this thread does answer it; thanks UPB!). We almost aborted the game when on turn one when we had strong disagreements on who gets the bonus for the doge cards. Again, with a group of very experienced gamers. A simple, "play cards in turn order, determine who gets the bonus, perform actions in doge order (including bonus for the player that gets it)" would have done wonders. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that the rules lay out the sequence for phase II as Cards, Actions, Bonus, with no mention of when Bonus is calculated, leaving the reading to assume it's after the actions. Astute players would notice that in the building sub-phase of phase II, it makes no sense to award the bonus after the actions have been played (and thus concluding that the bonus must be awarded first is the only thing that makes sense), but that's of little help when faced with the problem on the first doge cards and nothing but the rules as written to guide you.
Hi Curt,
Our intention to explain the "When" for the bonus is in the sentence: "The player who has played the most cards gets a bonus in addition to his actions". I would have thought that it is obvious that "in addition to" means "at the same time as", but I now understand, that this is not as clear as I thought. Sorry for this bad experience in your first game!
 
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Curt Carpenter
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barandur wrote:
Our intention to explain the "When" for the bonus is in the sentence: "The player who has played the most cards gets a bonus in addition to his actions". I would have thought that it is obvious that "in addition to" means "at the same time as", but I now understand, that this is not as clear as I thought.

If someone told you, "you get ice cream in addition to pizza", would you assume that you eat those "at the same time" and not one after the other? laugh

BTW, I appreciate you sticking around and not getting scared away by everyone. It is great to have publishers participate in the discussions here. But I do think you might want to adjust your internal balance to first seek to understand why people find something unclear, rather than assert that it is clear. FWIW
 
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Dick Hunt
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Another "late to the party" opinion (yeah, by about six months!):

Just played a game of Rialto last weekend, and while we did it wrong, it certainly felt right to us. We did it like so:

A played 2 doge cards, moves his marker 2 spaces
B played 1 doge card, moves his marker 1 space, etc.

I see now by this thread that this was the wrong method, but we liked the feel of it. After doing it that way a couple of rounds, the feeling was "yeah, that MUST be what they meant in the rules." We'll try it as the designer intended next time and see what it does for us.

We didn't have a problem with the idea that going later in the order was advantageous. We rather liked that because it felt so different from most Eurogames that we play. For example, if you play a Stefan Feld-designed game, you're going to be wrestling for turn order all day, trying to get up front and stay there. It just gives you better options.

Not nearly so true in Rialto, and we liked it for that. Doing something first isn't nearly as important as doing it the MOST. It almost feels like if you play the most cards during the Gold Phase, you HAVE to go first during the building phase...rather than the usual, stale, you GET to go first. It's downright refreshing.

In Rialto, going earlier in a round of card play means you have to commit yourself first. You get the bonus for playing the most cards of a type, but then you're forced to commit first in the NEXT round of card play. And as it has already been pointed out, if you played the most cards of one type, that's fewer cards you'll have in hand to play of a later type.

Watching the head games this setup causes is half the fun of Rialto.

Now I just have to remember that it's:

play Cards
assign Bonus
take Actions

See? It's as simple as...C B A?
 
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James Sheahan
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Hi Ralph,

I was looking through my BGG posts recently and noticed our conversation about the Rialto rules (last year).

On re-reading it, I think my response was too impatient and discourteous - I'm not sure why I felt so aggravated at the time. So, I apologise for that.

Cheers,

James.
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Ralph Bruhn
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Eisley wrote:
Hi Ralph,

I was looking through my BGG posts recently and noticed our conversation about the Rialto rules (last year).

On re-reading it, I think my response was too impatient and discourteous - I'm not sure why I felt so aggravated at the time. So, I apologise for that.

Cheers,

James.
Hi James,

Thank you for your kind words! Although I think there's no need to apologise. It sometimes happens in the heat of a discussion, that one is not chosing the perfect words - me included ...

Best wishes,
Ralph
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