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Subject: TI3 Factions Poll rss

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Roger Wilco
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Poll
Which faction is the most powerful in TI3?
  1 (strongest) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 (average) 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 (weakest)
The Emirates of Hacan
The Universities of Jol-Nar
The Barony of Letnev
The Sardakk N'orr
The Federation of Sol
The Xxcha Kingdom
The L1Z1X Mindnet
The Mentak Coalition
The Naalu Collective
The Yssaril Tribes
The Embers of Muaat
The Clan of Saar
The Winnu
The Yin Brotherhood
The Arborec
The Ghosts of Creuss
The Nekro Virus
      64 answers
Poll created by bulli


Please give an answer based on your experience only!

Poll
1. How many players do you play with (if you only play in groups of 8 or in groups of 4 then pick the one that occurs more often, don't average)?
1 :-(
2 :-/
3
4
5
6
7
8
9+ ;-)
2. How many rings does your setup usually have?
3
4
custom (few tiles)
custom (many tiles)
3. Do you play till...
10 VPs
14 VPs
time's up
custom conditions
elimination
      68 answers
Poll created by bulli


Also, please give the thread a thumb to increase visibility.

EDIT: Thought of 2 new polls:

Poll
How many hex tiles PER PLAYER (excluding HS tiles, rounded) does your setup usually have? (pick number of hexes taken most often, don't average)
0 (6 player, 1 ring)
1
2
3
4
5 (6 player, 3 ring)
6 (5 player, 3 ring)
7 (8 player, 4 ring)
8 (4 player, 3 ring)
9 (6 player, 4 ring)
10
11 (3 player, 3 ring)
12
13
14
15 (4 player, 4 ring)
more
      15 answers
Poll created by bulli


Poll
How many resources does your setup usually have per player? (EXCLUDING HS)
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
more
      12 answers
Poll created by bulli
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Necessary Evil
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I find it interesting that at lease early there is not a lot of love for the mindset.

The yssaril I find are over rated. Yes newbies don't know what to do with them but more experienced players handle them quite well.

I will go on record as saying that any race can win the game in the right hands.

M
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Magic Octopus
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I'm surprised that Jol-Nar isn't getting more votes. Did they lose power with the expansions? Without them they were very strong because there were many objectives related to Tech.

Sol is underrated. In our group they have the highest winning percentage. Their racial ability serves as a skip, and as a side benefit it reinforces their planets, making them unattractive to attack. Of course, if Mentak snipes their Carriers in the first round it's game over.

Stating the obvious:
No race can handle 2 others attacking them without help.

Stating the obvious 2:
Any race can win in the right circumstances.

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Necessary Evil
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magicoctopus wrote:
I'm surprised that Jol-Nar isn't getting more votes. Did they lose power with the expansions? Without them they were very strong because there were many objectives related to Tech.

Stating the obvious:
No race can handle 2 others attacking them without help.

Stating the obvious 2:
Any race can win in the right circumstances.



Jol Nar have lost power as more objectives are based on conflict after SE

As far as being attacked goes I must agree. I am currently having my ass handed to me in an online game as the Letnev after being attacked BT sol and mentak from the start. The interesting thing will be to see if either of the attackers can win. Mentak who attacked first will not, but sol who waited to mop up is doing well.

M
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Roger Wilco
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The difference in variance is amazing. Some almost unanimous, some completely stretched out.

Hacan so high up? Sol above average? I am baffled!
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Jeff S
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bulli wrote:
The difference in variance is amazing. Some almost unanimous, some completely stretched out.

Hacan so high up? Sol above average? I am baffled!


Only the surprise at those two is surprising to me.
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Christopher Halbower
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magicoctopus wrote:
I'm surprised that Jol-Nar isn't getting more votes. Did they lose power with the expansions? Without them they were very strong because there were many objectives related to Tech.


Most people use the objectives from Shattered Empires where there is only 1 tech objective (if I recall correctly). In the base game, there are 3 or 4 objectives that are tech related.
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Christopher Halbower
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bulli wrote:
The difference in variance is amazing. Some almost unanimous, some completely stretched out.

Hacan so high up? Sol above average? I am baffled!


There are a ton of objectives that are resource and influence based. And the Hacan get tons of trade goods from their racial ability and from their juicy trade agreements. There are 9 (if I recall correctly) objectives that are "I spend X influence/resources/trade goods...". And the Hacan should easily score these. That's why I put the Hacan near the top.
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Washington Irving
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Shattered Empire has 1 stage I and one stage II objective for having technologies. Base game is 3/1.

It has 2 stage I objectives and 1 stage II objective that can be fulfilled by spending trade goods. Base game is 3/3.


But trade goods can also be used to buy almost any other resource in the game (notable they can buy ships, techs, and command counters) so yeah, Hacan are good.
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Christopher Halbower
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I'm very interested in seeing the outcome of this poll. It would be interesting to see the results once 100+ people vote.
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Roger Wilco
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halbower wrote:
bulli wrote:
The difference in variance is amazing. Some almost unanimous, some completely stretched out.

Hacan so high up? Sol above average? I am baffled!


There are a ton of objectives that are resource and influence based. And the Hacan get tons of trade goods from their racial ability and from their juicy trade agreements. There are 9 (if I recall correctly) objectives that are "I spend X influence/resources/trade goods...". And the Hacan should easily score these. That's why I put the Hacan near the top.


"should"? That does not sound very experience based...
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Scott Lewis
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bulli wrote:
halbower wrote:
bulli wrote:
The difference in variance is amazing. Some almost unanimous, some completely stretched out.

Hacan so high up? Sol above average? I am baffled!


There are a ton of objectives that are resource and influence based. And the Hacan get tons of trade goods from their racial ability and from their juicy trade agreements. There are 9 (if I recall correctly) objectives that are "I spend X influence/resources/trade goods...". And the Hacan should easily score these. That's why I put the Hacan near the top.


"should"? That does not sound very experience based...

Fear not, he is a very experienced player . The "should" is probably more stating that "it's never a guarantee, but they aren't that hard to achieve in most games".
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Christopher Halbower
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bulli wrote:
halbower wrote:
bulli wrote:
The difference in variance is amazing. Some almost unanimous, some completely stretched out.

Hacan so high up? Sol above average? I am baffled!


There are a ton of objectives that are resource and influence based. And the Hacan get tons of trade goods from their racial ability and from their juicy trade agreements. There are 9 (if I recall correctly) objectives that are "I spend X influence/resources/trade goods...". And the Hacan should easily score these. That's why I put the Hacan near the top.


"should"? That does not sound very experience based...


Would you prefer that I said, "shall" instead? laugh
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Matt Epp
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Mentak can get out of hand pretty quickly with their racial techs and flagship, they're a downright menace. If 2-3 players hadn't dogpiled him in my last game, he would have cruise(re)d easily to victory.

I think Hacan, Mindnet, and Mentak are easily the top 3 when including almost all options from both expansions.

Yssaril and Jolnar are still good in their own right, but they must really be handled capably.

I will echo that any race can win if played to their strengths and have a good sense of the board/objectives.

Just won an 8 player with Yssaril last night, but it had little to do with racial abilities. Netted a few nice action cards.

Can I just say that I hate preliminary objectives? Bad for every race, period.
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Roger Wilco
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The amount of rings might do the trick. In a 4 ring the Hacans edge in TGs becomes rather meaningless. It's a damn shame you can't have the poll tools differentiate the faction pool between people that selected 3/4 ring. It would be quite informative.
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Fedor Syagin
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Eppic wrote:

Just won an 8 player with Yssaril last night, but it had little to do with racial abilities. Netted a few nice action cards.


Isn't drawing second card and not having limit of hand their racial ability?
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Arandor .
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halbower wrote:
bulli wrote:
The difference in variance is amazing. Some almost unanimous, some completely stretched out.

Hacan so high up? Sol above average? I am baffled!


There are a ton of objectives that are resource and influence based. And the Hacan get tons of trade goods from their racial ability and from their juicy trade agreements. There are 9 (if I recall correctly) objectives that are "I spend X influence/resources/trade goods...". And the Hacan should easily score these. That's why I put the Hacan near the top.


Same here. Games are won with resources, and Hacan has enormous amounts of those.

My "top 5" is:

Yssaril (like, duh).
Hacan / Jol-Nar / Nekro (in no particular order; basically all of these have vast resources; discounts to techs and SD due to Scientists or they don't spend anything on tech at all)
L1Z1X (still strong as they can actually make something of their DN unlike all other races)
 
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Roger Wilco
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Most of the time, the Hacan will get 2,2 TAs while two other players (the Hacan trading partners) will have either 1,3 TAs or even 2,3 TAs. So it boils down to the 2 xtra TGs Hacan gets for its racial (and Trade SC does not even get chosen every turn). When it comes to raw resource power, the Letnev are very much in an equal position.
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Arandor .
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bulli wrote:
Most of the time, the Hacan will get 2,2 TAs while two other players (the Hacan trading partners) will have either 1,3 TAs or even 2,3 TAs. So it boils down to the 2 xtra TGs Hacan gets for its racial (and Trade SC does not even get chosen every turn). When it comes to raw resource power, the Letnev are very much in an equal position.


Couple of things.

1) Sarween Tools. Hacan's trick is "3 SD in HS, profit at least once, with Production possibly twice for 6 extra income".

2) Micro Technology.

3) Hacan is GUARANTEED his TA. No one will turn them down and the Trade Master will have nothing to say over their TA. Nor will they be broken. Everyone else has to beg, cajole, threaten or pay the Trade Master to get their TA.

4) Trade III allows Hacan to break a TA for free (no CC) and gain more profit.

5) Racial Tech: Production Centers.

Barony and Hacan are not remotely in the same league, no sirree.

Barony will be lucky to get 1, 1 for Trade (unless they happen to have Hacan as their neighbor) whereas Hacan gets 8+ TG a round even with 2, 2 or 1, 3.
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Roger Wilco
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Trade only gets taken every other turn.

Hacan: HS 3, TA revenue 2+2 (or 2+3) + 2*1 Hacan bonus + free 1 TRADE III secondary = 10 (or 11)

Letnev = HS 6, TA revenue 1+1 = 8

Now lets assume that Trade gets taken in 2 out of 3 turns (which is generous) and calculate the averages:

Hacan: HS 3, (TA revenue 2+2 (or 2+3) + 2*1 Hacan bonus + free 1 TRADE III secondary)*2/3 = 7,66 (or 8,33)

Letnev = HS 6, (TA revenue 1+1)*2/3 = 7,33

I see how one can name Hacan to be slightly superior, but far less superior than the poll suggests...
 
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Arandor .
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bulli wrote:
Trade only gets taken every other turn.


Not really. Especially Trade III is better than that. The twice every three rounds is a good estimate.

Trade beats the hell out of Warfare II, Diplomacy and Bureaucracy are not so popular early/midgame yet. It's often even better than Assembly. (You rather want to use the secondary of Assembly.) It's below Leadership, Production and Technology... but better than some.

Quote:
Hacan: HS 3, TA revenue 2+2 (or 2+3) + 2*1 Hacan bonus + free 1 TRADE III secondary = 10 (or 11)


Trade would be 9 (2 + 2 TA average, +2*1 Hacan bonus, +2*1 Micro Technology, +1 from breaking TA's for free).

For production you mean HS: 6 or 9 (remember: Sarween Tools, 3 SD). Depending on use of Production (primary or secondary). Let's go with 6, just remember Hacan can benefit better than Letnev.

(Also you mean: +4 TG due to racial tech Production Centers. But let's keep that one out.)

Also Hacan still has Kamdorn left for 1 influence (to be used with e.g. Leadership).

6 + 9 = 15, and 1 influence "spare".

Quote:
Letnev = HS 6, TA revenue 1+1 = 8


If Letnev would tech up to Sarween Tools (only fair, this is 2 techs of which Enviro is really good for Letnev, and we let Hacan tech up to Micro Technology and Production Centers, too) that would be:

HS: 8 or 10. Let's go with 8, same as we did for Hacan (leaving Production secondary out of it).

8 HS + 2 TG = 10, no spare influence, your trades can and will be broken and you may have to pay to have them reinstated (or created in the first place).

Hacan: 15 (worst case)
Letnev: 10 (best case)

Quote:
Now lets assume that Trade gets taken in 2 out of 3 turns (which is generous) and calculate the averages:

Hacan: HS 3, (TA revenue 2+2 (or 2+3) + 2*1 Hacan bonus + free 1 TRADE III secondary)*2/3 = 7,66 (or 8,33)

Letnev = HS 6, (TA revenue 1+1)*2/3 = 7,33

I see how one can name Hacan to be slightly superior, but far less superior than the poll suggests...


Hacan: 6 from HS every round (4 starting round 1), plus 2 * 9 = 18 TG per 3 rounds -> 12 per round.
Letnev: 8 from HS every round (6 starting round 1), plus 2 * 2 = 4 TG per 3 rounds -> 9,33 per round.

Not to mention, TG are far more flexible.

So 12 (worst case) versus a tad over 9 (best case).

Let's look at the spendy objectives, shall we?

1) Objective "I now spend 4 TG, 3 production, 3 influence".

Hacan will easily have the 4 TG, their HS is 3 production and 1 influence, so they need 2 more influence (or 2 TG) outside HS.

Letnev will need to wait 3 rounds to get 4 TG from Trade, their HS is 4 + 2 production (so you don't want to use Arc Prime, that's a waste) so they need 1 production and 3 influence outside their HS.

Clear winner: Hacan.

2) Objective "I now spend 10 resources".

Hacan can do this in any given round with just their HS and TG (and will still have influence to spare). Letnev can't.

Clear winner: Hacan.

3) Objective "I now spend 10 influence".

Influence-wise Hacan's HS is already better than Letnev's...

Clear winner: Hacan.

4) Objective "I now spend 6 TG".

'nuff said.

The 2-point objectives of all these are even easier for Hacan, as TG can be saved, planetary production can't.
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Arandor .
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Another thing: all of the "strong" races have at least one of the following at the start:

Stasis Capsules (and a CA or DN to make use of it)
2 CV

Yssaril: 2 CV (and also XRD Transporters) + 5 GF.
Hacan: 2 CV + 4 GF.
L1Z1X: 1 CV, 1 DN + 5 GF + Stasis Capsules
Jol-Nar: 2 CV (sadly only 2 GF).
Winnu: 1 CV + 1 DN + Stasis Capsules, sadly only 3 GF.

Saar have a pretty explosive start (2 CV + 4 GF + XRD Transporters), but their SD are just too fragile.

Bouncing off the secondary of Production first round for 1 CV + 2 GF, all the strong races can potentially settle 3 systems in the first round.

Barony: 1 CV + 1 DN (but no Stasis Capsules) + 3 GF.

Sure, if the Barony decides to take their DN + Admiral + DD versus Hacan's CA + 2 FF, Hacan has a problem. Barring that, Hacan's first turn will be better, all else being equal.
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Christopher Halbower
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Looks like we're stuck with 45 votes cry
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Arandor .
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I see 48?
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Alex
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I put all the data in excel and made a nice graph. I considered all the lowest votes as a score of 1, and the highest a 10, with the rest in between those (so the lowest possible score for a race is 1). In case you're interested I also include the standard deviation.


(1): races added in Shattered Empire
(2): races added in Shards of the Throne
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