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Subject: Question about Dual Wielding a sawed off shotgun and pistol rss

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Jared Wilson
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Question about Dual-wielding: can a survivor carry a sawed off shotgun and a pistol since both have the dual wield symbol?

Or do the weapons both have to have the same dual wield symbol?
 
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Chester
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They have to match.
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Stephen Smith
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A survivor can carry both but to fire both as a single action they must match.
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Jared Wilson
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Thanks guys!
 
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Christophe Muller de Schongor
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And that is to say, even under the "ambidextrous" skil!!
 
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Twisted Remorse
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XofMdS wrote:
And that is to say, even under the "ambidextrous" skil!!


Now doesn't ambidextrous say all melee and ranged weapons have the four dual wield symbols? Meaning a pistol and sawed off have matching dual weild symbols they can be used in unison with one another?
 
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Adam Canning
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Twisted Remorse wrote:
XofMdS wrote:
And that is to say, even under the "ambidextrous" skil!!


Now doesn't ambidextrous say all melee and ranged weapons have the four dual wield symbols? Meaning a pistol and sawed off have matching dual weild symbols they can be used in unison with one another?


No.

Since
Zombicide Rulebook v3.0 p15 wrote:
If the active Survivor has two identical weapons with the Dual symbol equipped in hand, he can use both weapons at the same time at the cost of a single Combat Action.
 
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Thibaud Dejardin
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Ambidextrous only means you can use 2 chainsaw, two katanas, two baseballbats, two rifles or two shotguns as dual wielded weapons.
Not the greatest skill, if you see the poor number of "non dual weapons" in the deck, if you ask me.
 
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Scott Hill
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Archange227 wrote:
Ambidextrous only means you can use 2 chainsaw, two katanas, two baseballbats, two rifles or two shotguns as dual wielded weapons.
Not the greatest skill, if you see the poor number of "non dual weapons" in the deck, if you ask me.


Out of the 15 weapons in the base game, 2 (or possibly 3) can not be dual wielded at all (even with Ambidextrous), and of the remaining 13 (or possibly 12), only 4 are naturally dual wield-able, leaving 9 (or at least 8) that can only be dual-wielded by a Survivor that has Ambidextrous.

I.e. the majority.
 
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Thibaud Dejardin
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Out of the 15 weapons in the base game, 2 (or possibly 3) can not be dual wielded at all (even with Ambidextrous), and of the remaining 13 (or possibly 12), only 4 are naturally dual wield-able, leaving 9 (or at least 8) that can only be dual-wielded by a Survivor that has Ambidextrous.

I.e. the majority.

In your deck, you have 2 crowbars, 2 fireaxe, 2 baseballbats, 2 carabines, 2 katanas, 2 shotguns and 2 chainsaws. (14 total)

Opposed to 4 machetes, 4 sawed-off, 3 pistols and 2 SMG. (13)

Yes, the majority (but you're wrong on the numbers) is non dualwield. But the "non dual" are rare in the deck, so it's unlikely you'll find both in a game. And even if it's the case, does it worth it? Not really.
2 crowbars? Weaker than pair of machetes. 2 Axes? identical to machetes. 2 katanas may look cool, eventually (but it doesn't kill fatties). 2 Baseballbats? I prefer machetes, that kill fatties too.
Only great exception is dual chainsaw, but only if your character have both +1 to dice roll and ambidextrous (it's not the case at melee). And maybe you'll prefer having two survivors (with +1 to rolls) with the chainsaws advantages.
2 shotguns would be nice but not that stronger than 2 sawed-off.
2 carabines are not really usefull because you'll usually prefer a weapon 0 or 0-1 with it, and double rifle is only nice with sniper skill or double sniper rifles.
If you really look the possible combos, the only one shining is dual chainsaw.

And on top of all those limitations, ambidextrous take the place of another usefull skill. Frankly, i prefer +1 dice to my dual sawed-off than wielding two shotguns. And the +1 dice is better than dual rifles because you have one hand free. And for the melee weapons, i totally prefer slippery than being able to wield two baseball bats or two katanas.

No doubt to me that ambidextrous is one of the weakest skill to get.
If single identical weapons were more common (for example 4 or 6 baseball bats, crowbars and shotguns, opposed to only 2 sawed off and 2 machetes), things would be maybe different.
 
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Jeff Dunford
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Don't forget that if you start with Ambidextrous, you can dual-wield PANS right off the bat.
"Come get some!"
 
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Scott Hill
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'Non-dual wield even with Ambidextrous':
2x Molotov.
1x Ma's Shotgun.
1x Evil Twins.
(4 TOTAL)

'Dual wield with Ambidextrous':
3x Pan.
2x Crowbar.
2x Fire Axe.
2x Baseball Bat.
2x Katana.
2x Chainsaw.
2x Shotgun.
2x Rifle.
(17 TOTAL)

'Natural dual wield':
4x Machete.
3x Pistol.
4x Sawed Off.
2x Sub MG.
(13 TOTAL)

A minority of the total weapon cards are 'natural dual wield' (13 vs 21).
At worst the 'dual wield with ambidextrous' are 50% of the total (17 vs 17).
And if we ignore the 'non dual wield even with ambidextrous' they're the majority of the total (17 vs 13).

Now, admittedly, the 'natural dual wield' weapons have a higher, overall, average hits per attack (1.666 vs 1.471), but I personally feel this is outweighed by the higher availability of 'dual wield with ambidextrous' weapons.

This is also borne out, in my experience, in play, where more often than not, I find, the group will end up with more duplicates of the 'dual wield with ambidextrous' than the 'natural dual wield' weapons, even when Doug is in play.

YMM, of course, V.
 
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Thiago Aranha
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I think that you could, if you wanted, dual wield Molotovs with Ambidextrous. Of course, that would be terribly wasteful, and only really useful at all if you also have Trick Shot, but I don't see why you couldn't do it.
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Scott Hill
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Loophole Master wrote:
...would be terribly wasteful, and only really useful at all if you also have Trick Shot...


That's why I don't count Molotovs as dual wield even with ambidextrous (and why the two sets of numbers of in my earlier post).
 
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Thibaud Dejardin
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Scorpion0x17 wrote:

'Dual wield with Ambidextrous':

1 or 4 players, pans are out.
And, even if they are in... seriously... dual wield pans? It's more a matter of having the last word than anything, right?
You can even put rifles out of the list they benefit more the "+1 dice range" alternative. Because, until now, Doug is the only survivor with this skill.

Note that blue and one of the orange Doug's skills make it even a worse choice. Because If Doug has +1 to range rolls, it only leaves shotguns or rifles (useless as said before)...

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Now, admittedly, the 'natural dual wield' weapons have a higher, overall, average hits per attack (1.666 vs 1.471), but I personally feel this is outweighed by the higher availability of 'dual wield with ambidextrous' weapons.

This, plus the skill you lose to get ambidextrous, make it a bad choice in most of the possible cases.
And they are not "more available" as there are only 2 of each weapon.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
This is also borne out, in my experience, in play, where more often than not, I find, the group will end up with more duplicates of the 'dual wield with ambidextrous' than the 'natural dual wield' weapons, even when Doug is in play.

If you count the ones you discard as soon as you find a real weapon (especially pans), sure. However, having 2 crowbars and 2 baseball bats in your group doesn't make ambidextrous a usefull skill. When you reach red, you don't ask yourself "do i have double non dual weapons", but "will i benefit more from ambidextrous or from slippery (one of the best skills available) or +1 dice range"?
+1 dice will be almost always better. Even simple pistols become correct with that skill (similar to dual wield shotguns). I don't mention the pair of sawed off (6 dice 2+) which are great, even with the reload.

And in average, you will end up with a pair of sawed off more often than with 2 shotguns, and more oftem with 2 machetes than with 2 fireaxes. Especially when you play Doug, precisely.

If i missed something really cool about that skill, i would be glad to hear it.
If it had been been a blue skill or even an orange skill opposed to a situational or weak one (low profile or free search for example), maybe we could try to use it at best.
 
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Scott Hill
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The only weapons that benefit from +1 die over dual wield are the ones that can't be dual wielded even with Ambidextrous (i.e. Ma's Shotgun, Evil Twins, and Molotov)!

Everything else has either a lower average hits per attack under +1 die, than under dual wield, or it's exactly the same (because they're the 1 die weapons)!
 
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Adam Canning
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Archange227 wrote:

If i missed something really cool about that skill, i would be glad to hear it.
If it had been been a blue skill or even an orange skill opposed to a situational or weak one (low profile or free search for example), maybe we could try to use it at best.


Missions where you start on red. Doug turns up two weapons each time he turns up a weapon. Gearing up fast is important there.

For both Doug and Belle [And Zombie Doug and Zombie Josh], it looks to be a choice if the party has both Automatic Shotguns or both Chainsaws [Mission C6 for example.].

+1 Die combat isn't as useful as the 3 extra dice from the second Automatic Shotgun or the 5 from the Chainsaw. I don't think a second + Move action on Belle is better either.

.44 Magnums, Gunblades and Claw Hammers are naturally paired. The Flamethrower, Ultrared weapons and Pa's gun can't be paired due to being unique and Automatic shotguns and Assault Rifles need ambidexterity.
 
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Thibaud Dejardin
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dahak wrote:
Missions where you start on red. Doug turns up two weapons each time he turns up a weapon. Gearing up fast is important there.

Do the two skills make combo? I wasn't sure about that (do ambidextrous consider weapons as dual for matching set). If it's the case, yes, in that precise case it may be usefull to fast up the gear.

Belle and automatic shotguns are not in the game yet, but i believe if powerfull single weapons come in the expansion, it will maybe change a little the usefullness of ambidextrous.

dahak wrote:
+1 Die combat isn't as useful as the 3 extra dice from the second Automatic Shotgun or the 5 from the Chainsaw. I don't think a second + Move action on Belle is better either.

True for both those weapons. Note that only chainsaw is in the actual game. Having both chainsaws may be a reason to take ambidextrous skill.

Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Everything else has either a lower average hits per attack under +1 die, than under dual wield, or it's exactly the same (because they're the 1 die weapons)!

Exactly the same. Using 2 hands for the same result instead of 1 hand, i consider it as a loss.
 
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Julien Le Jeune
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Can we agree that if you're playing Doug with a chainsaw, and you just hit red, and some guy on your zone has the second chainsaw, then it's worth taking Ambidextrous?

I mean, come on!

 
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Archange227 wrote:
Do the two skills make combo? I wasn't sure about that (do ambidextrous consider weapons as dual for matching set). If it's the case, yes, in that precise case it may be usefull to fast up the gear.


Yes, yes they do! Matching Set + Ambidextrous means that not only do you dual wield any weapon, but also that you find matching sets of any weapon.

Archange227 wrote:
Belle and automatic shotguns are not in the game yet, but i believe if powerfull single weapons come in the expansion, it will maybe change a little the usefullness of ambidextrous.


I've yet to run the numbers on the TCM weapons, and am not sure how Toxic Zombies will change the game dynamics, also the Automatic Shotgun is part of PO, and we don't know all the stats for all the weapons in that, so it's a bit early to be starting to pontificate how they change the usefulness of any of the skills.

Archange227 wrote:
Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Everything else has either a lower average hits per attack under +1 die, than under dual wield, or it's exactly the same (because they're the 1 die weapons)!

Exactly the same. Using 2 hands for the same result instead of 1 hand, i consider it as a loss.


I assume you meant "Not exactly the same."

That however is arguable - you can only use one weapon, or one dual-wielded weapon, at a time, so the average hits per attack rating is all that really matters, imo.
 
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Archange227 wrote:
Belle and automatic shotguns are not in the game yet


Only insofar as one would have to print then oneself and find a suitable substitute figure. So no more in the game than El Cholo is for people who weren't in the kickstarter.

The card and dashboard are up on Guillotine's Facebook.

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Thibaud Dejardin
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Things are slightly different, since Belle is a future character you have a spoiler of on facebook. It will be in the expansion box. El'Cholo is an actual official character.

But anyway, it doesn't change a lot of things, because belle has the same skills at red: +1 die combat or ambidextrous. It will sometimes happen that you have two automatic shotguns in your team, and that it wouldn't better been wield by two different survivors. But this will be really rare, because the equipement deck doesn't change a lot.

It would have made more sense if dual wielded weapons were rarer than single weapons. If you double the normal weapons and divide by 2 the dual wielded ones, ambidextrous become an intresting skill, as you will more often have 2 identical non dual wield weapons than pairs or dual wielded weapons.

But actually, it's a lot more often to have pairs of dual wielded weapons and only one single weapon. Deck is made that way.
 
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Scott Hill
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Archange227 wrote:
But actually, it's a lot more often to have pairs of dual wielded weapons and only one single weapon. Deck is made that way.


The deck is not made that way.

See above.
 
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Thibaud Dejardin
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You really wanna make this debate?

For a single weapon X you picked, you have 1Y chances to get the second weapon X in Z searches rounds.

For a usual dual wield weapon W you pick, you have 3Y chances to get at least one more W in Z searches rounds.

Isn't it easy to understand that you have more chances to pick a weapon which is three times in the deck than a single card lost alone in that same deck?

Yes, you will pick the same number (not more, because pans and pimp weapons are not in the deck) of single weapons and dual wielded ones. But once you have one of a particular weapon, you'll have a lot more chances to get a second one machete, pistol or sawed off that a second shotgun or chainsaw. Purely mathematical (and logical).

If the deck had 4 bats, 4 shotguns, 4 katanas (...) and only 2 machetes, 2 sawed off and 2 pistols, things would be more in favor of ambidextrous because you would end more often with only one naturally dual wield, and many single weapons of the same type.
That would make more sense, in my opinion, but it's simply not the case actually.
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Scott Hill
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Yes, but the greater number of 'dual with ambidextrous' weapons in the deck means you're more likely to draw a match to one of the 'dual with ambidextrous' weapons that you party is carrying.

Or in other words, and just as an example, if your party is carrying a Baseball Bat, a Katana, a Crowbar, a Chainsaw, a Fire Axe, and a Sawn Off (and, for arguments sake, there is no discard pile, and the survivors aren't carrying any other items). You are more likely to draw either a Baseball Bat, a Katana, a Crowbar, a Chainsaw, or a Fire Axe (5 in 49 chance (10.204%)), than another Sawn Off (3 in 49 (6.122%)).

Obviously, this is isn't a full statistical analysis, but it illustrates my point.
 
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