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Subject: Sorcerers and special attacks rss

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Frank Otte
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(1) Can the special attack of the sorcerers be combined with the catapult?

I assume yes, because, similar to flying, it's not an adjacent region, but it's an attack.

(2) Can the special attack of the sorcerer be combined with the dragon (master) attack?

I assume no, because the Dragon has already it's own special rules, under which his attack is performed.
 
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Mik Svellov
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1) Yes, you may use the catapult to perform an attack skipping one region. That attack could be the sorcerer's ability.

2) You have to decide which attack you want to do: The Dragonmaster can conquer a region with just a single token, but that token will be yours. Converting your own token to another token of your own type doesn't make sense.
 
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Pokey 64
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Great Dane wrote:
1) Yes, you may use the catapult to perform an attack skipping one region. That attack could be the sorcerer's ability.



In order to use the sorcerer's race power, the sorcerers must be in a region adjacent to the opponents region. The catapult power does not make you adjacent. In fact, it is the opposite. If you are using the catapult power to conquer a region you are NOT adjacent to it. However, AFTER you use the catapult power to get adjacent to an opponents region you can then use the sorcerer's racial power to convert their single token to yours.

You don't combine the special powers and racial powers together. They are seperate and used to compliment each other to effect.
 
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Mik Svellov
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http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=254390#msg_254390
 
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Frank Otte
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The answers there are not so clear, but seems, that my assumption was right. To admit, everything different would have surprised me.

Reason: Flying Sorcerers are allowed to use their special ability against regions afar, although it's explicitely said, that Flying does not make regions adjacent, which are not. And the Sorcerers ability normally requires adjacency. Why that?

Because it was decided, that the special ability of the Sorcerers is an attack. Flying enables you to attack regions, which are not adjacent to yours. The catapult enables me to attack regions which are not adjacent to mine. From that follows, that Sorcerers should be able to perform their special attack via the catapult.
 
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Pokey 64
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One small problem. None of what either of you say appears anywhere in the rules of Small World (or Small World Underground for that matter). If it did, people answering this question would be able to quote page, column and paragraph of where it states this information.

"Flying" gives you the ability to conquer regions that are NOT adjacent to the one you control. It says this in the Flying Power's description. Now, if the German and Danish rules are different than the English, maybe this is incorrect. I can only vouch for the English rules.

If "flying" made you adjacent, it would say so in the power's description. Also, if "flying" makes you adjacent to anything, it would be reciprical and you'd actually be adjacent to EVERYTHING and be immediately wiped out by your opponents. After all, if my region is adjacent to yours, yours would be adjacent to mine. That's what "adjacent" means.

"Catapult" works the same as "flying" except that it has a limited range. It also doesn't make you adjacent because, by definition, explained in the rules, you have a region in between your region and the target region. You are by definition NOT adjacent. However, if you'd rather consider yoursel to be adjacent to EVERY region you can reach with catapult, be my guest. Just remember though that each of those regions will also be adjacent to you.



 
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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Well you're not wrong - but you're still wrong.

http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?goto=164065#msg_164065

This explains the Flying Sorcerers ruling. Based on the not-in-the-rule interpretation that flying allows you to ignore adjacency described there, I see no argument to extend the ruling to allow for the catapult use in question.

Catapult allows a specific, modified conquest to occur. Flying eliminates the adjacency requirement for all rules it shows up in.
 
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Danny Mack
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panzer6 wrote:
If "flying" made you adjacent, it would say so in the power's description. Also, if "flying" makes you adjacent to anything, it would be reciprical and you'd actually be adjacent to EVERYTHING and be immediately wiped out by your opponents. After all, if my region is adjacent to yours, yours would be adjacent to mine. That's what "adjacent" means.

I basically agree with you here, Pokey, except for the quote above. If I have Flying and if (let's say theoretically) Flying made me adjacent to every region on the board, it would not be reciprocal--allowing me to be wiped out by my opponents from anywhere on the board, on their turns. They would have to also have the Flying power to do this. Generally conquest powers are only in effect on my own turn, during the conquest phase of my turn.

But as for the original question, IMO, simplest is best (although often hard to achieve where the Sorcerers are concerned.) Let's work with what we know:
> The Sorcerer's power is classified as a "conquest."
> As of this writing, DOW has made no official ruling that Flying & Catapult have any correlation.
> The Catapult power description takes pains to state that you may use it "to conquer any region that is 1 region away (but not adjacent) at 1 less token than usual." [from the Be Not Afraid rulesheet, emphasis mine] Therefore this power modifies the usual requirements of conquest in 2 ways: not only must the region under attack be "1 region away" rather than adjacent, but also rather than "2 plus the stack" it is "1 plus the stack". (It is not to be used for any sort of attack you want to make; it is for a "Commando-style" of attack.)
> The Sorcerer's power specifically states that it modifies the usual requirement of conquest only by removing the "method" of attack--rather than "2 plus the stack" it is an exchange of tokens between my supply and your region. It further reaffirms that in order to make the substitution, "that Region must be adjacent to one of your Sorcerers'." [from page 9 of the rulebook, emphasis mine]

From these facts I believe we can extrapolate this ruling...
Catapult + Sorcerers allows a player to make 2 types of special conquests (in addition to standard conquests) during the conquest phase of his turn: (1) "Sorcerizing" adjacent regions, and (2) "Commando-style" conquests of regions that are on the other side of regions adjacent to the position of the catapult. In other words, an adjacent special conquest and a not-adjacent special conquest. 2 powers gives you 2 powers, not a single "contraction" power.
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Brian D
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The "region must be adjacent" thing in the rulebook is a continual source of confusion because it seems to directly contradict the Flying+Sorcerers ruling that is both in the book and has been upheld repeatedly in official Q&A's.

Comments by DoW staff in their forum make me believe that line in the rulebook was just there as a reminder as to what normal conquering rules are (because otherwise playtesters got confused and started sorcering people everywhere) and not meant as an extra restriction. But then if it just follows normal conquer restrictions, the "flying sorcerers can enter the board using their ability but non-flying ones can't" rule doesn't really make sense, so I don't know.

Basically because there is no official ruling yet, just decide as a group which way you're going to play it if it ever comes up.

It's times like this I really wish the designer had been a native english speaker :\
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