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Subject: Legitimization of Radiant Gaming rss

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Steve Bachman
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Presuming the publishing of Up Front by Rik & Torben is contingent on the outcome of the litigation in Dallas, I'd like to hear from the backers who maintain that all is well and Radiant Gaming is legitimate and separate from Valley Games and its debts.

The case appears to hinge on this legitimate separation, and to support this Rik & Torben have provided legal contracts to the court backing their claims that Radiant Gaming was established ahead of any legal proceedings against Valley Games, for the purpose of producing its own games. A trademark agreement was presented backing the claim that Radiant's products were being produced in Valley dress to better establish a foothold in the market.

This is all fine and well in the proper context and framework, even the backdating of the documents would make sense if that was the formalization of a previously informal arrangement.

However, the one product Radiant Gaming has put out - D-Day Dice - seems to obliterate this defense and I'd like to hear some logical reasoning from Radiant supporters on why it doesn't.

If Radiant was legitimately created in September 2011, and created a very successful product in D-Day Dice and its expansions, why hasn't it made a profit or seen any revenue at all from it? All of the Kickstarter funds were wired to Valley Games for production, leaving none of it for Radiant's profits. All of the sales of the products through the PSI warehouse have gone to Valley Games, not to Radiant Gaming. Is there a logical reason for this to have been the case if Radiant was in business for itself?

If Radiant was legitimately using Valley Games' trademarks and logos to help establish itself in the gaming community, why is there no mention of Radiant Gaming at all on the packaging? Is there a logical explanation for how having Valley Games prominently emblazoned all over the packaging, with not a single reference to Radiant Gaming, helps to build the latter's brand recognition? Why wouldn't both companies be included to serve that purpose, similar to the Warfrog and Winsome logos on Age of Steam?


I'd like to here some sensible reasons to explain these and created this thread to be able to link to rather than detailing it every time someone attempts to rationalize one aspect of it out of context.
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matt way
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translation - the legal papers are too boring to watch on a day to day basis and you can only go so far with Mesopotamia jokes . . .

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Martin Gallo
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The case is not over until that last gavel strikes.

In other words, we do not know what is going to be "the truth" until that last appeal.
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Josh
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This thread, being a Radiant thread not really a Up Front thread, and at best being something better put in the allowed 'mega thread' is begging to be locked.
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Steve Bachman
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martimer wrote:
The case is not over until that last gavel strikes.

In other words, we do not know what is going to be "the truth" until that last appeal.

Of course, but that doesn't address the questions here at all. What are the logical reasons folks are leaning on to make sense of the defense argument? I'm genuinely curious about the thoughts behind the defense of Radiant Gaming being a legitimate, and separate, business entity.
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Steve Bachman
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Shadrach wrote:
This thread, being a Radiant thread not really a Up Front thread, and at best being something better put in the allowed 'mega thread' is begging to be locked.

It directly impacts Up Front. What reason would there be to lock it other than because some folks don't want to, or can't, reasonably answer these questions?

If you can't stay on topic, feel free to ignore the thread.
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Josh
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Ward wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
This thread, being a Radiant thread not really a Up Front thread, and at best being something better put in the allowed 'mega thread' is begging to be locked.

It directly impacts Up Front. What reason would there be to lock it other than because some folks don't want to, or can't, reasonably answer these questions?

If you can't stay on topic, feel free to ignore the thread.


Because it is redundent and not game-related. If you really want answers and not just attention you should delete it and repost your questions in the mega-thread. There are plenty of people there who will gladly discuss itand have subscribed to it so they will even be notified when you post to it.

You will achieve better results doing it that way.
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Chris Montgomery
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Yeah - I'm not getting drawn into yet another discussion on another thread to discuss the same issues. See around here for the legal rationale - which is the only one that really matters.

Fraudulent transfer still remains a viable theory, but it only allows Sauer to reach those things that were transferred to Radiant, and only those things that Sauer can show were transferred for the purposes of evading Valley's obligation to him - the real issue of material fact there is the value of the things transferred.

Cheers!
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Steve Bachman
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Shadrach wrote:
Ward wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
This thread, being a Radiant thread not really a Up Front thread, and at best being something better put in the allowed 'mega thread' is begging to be locked.

It directly impacts Up Front. What reason would there be to lock it other than because some folks don't want to, or can't, reasonably answer these questions?

If you can't stay on topic, feel free to ignore the thread.


Because it is redundent and not game-related. If you really want answers and not just attention you should delete it and repost your questions in the mega-thread. There are plenty of people there who will gladly discuss itand have subscribed to it so they will even be notified when you post to it.

You will achieve better results doing it that way.

Redundancy is not a reason to lock a thread, otherwise all of the KS updates 6 months ago and art updates this week would have been locked.

Perhaps you glossed over the last sentence in the original post. This thread serves as a location to link to but also where the folks claiming Radiant is on the up and up can answer these questions without having to cope with the other topics - legal and otherwise - discussed in the mega-thread.

Thanks for the advice, but I posted where I felt it belonged. If you care to address the topic, feel free. Otherwise, feel free to ignore the thread.
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Steve Bachman
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cmontgo2 wrote:
Yeah - I'm not getting drawn into yet another discussion on another thread to discuss the same issues. See around here for the legal rationale - which is the only one that really matters.

Fraudulent transfer still remains a viable theory, but it only allows Sauer to reach those things that were transferred to Radiant, and only those things that Sauer can show were transferred for the purposes of evading Valley's obligation to him - the real issue of material fact there is the value of the things transferred.

Cheers!

Thanks Chris, but that doesn't really explain why Radiant received no revenue from their only product nor why they had none of their markings on it.

If I wanted to discuss the legal matter, I would have posted it in the mega-thread. I want to understand the reasoning for Radiant's arguments from those who are satisfied by them.
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Matthew M
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The thread is mainly about the Publisher, not the game - so it has been moved to the publisher's forum
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Matt Logan
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Is there anything that anyone's going to post that's going to satisfy your query? Your post sounds more like chest thumping, and less like a genuine question.
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Steve Bachman
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Octavian wrote:
The thread is mainly about the Publisher, not the game - so it has been moved to the publisher's forum

That's fine if that's what it takes to keep posters on topic. Thanks.
 
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Steve Bachman
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Matt Logan wrote:
Is there anything that anyone's going to post that's going to satisfy your query? Your post sounds more like chest thumping, and less like a genuine question.

I'm open minded and interested in what others are seeing that it not apparent to me. I can't think of good reasons why a new company would produce a popular product but decline to promote themselves with it or on it, nor generate any revenue with it. Feel free to share your reasonings to enlighten me.
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Ward wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Ward wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
This thread, being a Radiant thread not really a Up Front thread, and at best being something better put in the allowed 'mega thread' is begging to be locked.

It directly impacts Up Front. What reason would there be to lock it other than because some folks don't want to, or can't, reasonably answer these questions?

If you can't stay on topic, feel free to ignore the thread.


Because it is redundent and not game-related. If you really want answers and not just attention you should delete it and repost your questions in the mega-thread. There are plenty of people there who will glaidly discuss itand have subscribed to it so they will even be notified when you post to it.

You will achieve better results doing it that way.
i
Redundancy is not a reason to lock a thread, otherwise all of the KS updates 6 months ago and art updates this week would have been locked.

Perhaps you glossed over the last sentence in the original post. This thread serves as a location to link to but also where the folks claiming Radiant is on the up and up can answer these questions without having to cope with the other topics - legal and otherwise - discussed in the mega-thread.

Thanks for the advice, but I posted where I felt it belonged. If you care to address the topic, feel free. Otherwise, feel free to ignore the thread.


I did red x the thread because I do think it should be moved(to radiant's forum) but just to be fair my reply:

1) on the subject of why specific business practices regarding physical production and transfers took place. You would need a fairly advanced business class to nail down a lot of that. There are things like utilizing the other comlany's physical presence rather than doubling it up, working with vendkrs under an established mark for better rates, and other things. The short version is that two companies doesn't mean two buildings anymore for various reasons of the way markets/regulation function. Business just isn't as simlle as laymen want to believe it is.

2) as to the logo usage. Plenty of reasons for this too, and speculation is just that. One of the reasons I avoid the other thread is disproving a conspiracy is basically like wrestling with the wind, and there are people over there who seem to think the bgg admins are involved somehow so... yeah...

One potential reason out of many, and one I won't defend because I have no attachment to it above others would be a sort of reputation double dip. If Radiant runs multiple KS campaigns it gets known on KS and the brand can draw people in. You don't need to see Radiant on the box, its on KS and that is where it 'sells' itself. By the time you get the box you bought it already. Valley on the box will put people of a mind that Valley is associated(even if it isn't) and as it is on a physical game they will be reminded of the good game when they see fhe logo on other physical box games(of which valley has several) and hopefully buy based on that. It could work as a fair-trade arrangement for Radiant utilizing some of valley's contacts/distribution channels.

This sort of thing happens fairly frequently(one name plastered across the front while another name did the work) but again, it is just one in a sea of ideas, so don't bother picking it apart; it won't net you anything.

Now I'm going to go jog.

Edit: wow admin ninja'd while I was writing. Now to jog!
 
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Matt Price
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Hi Steve,

I'm an optimist, and since this represents to me a rather small investment I simply choose to remain optimistic that Up Front will be published. This isn't based on any of the data we've seen so far; the woefully overused IANAL applies to me, and my guess as to the outcome would be worthless to anyone but me.

I also feel that I've (almost) gotten my money's worth from the learning experience and entertainment value of the various threads on the topic of "the case". This truly has been an amazing demonstration of the power of the internet to draw folks in, and get folks to express their often rather strong, but even more often uninformed opinions.

I am a little curious about why you ask the question. I guess I would fall into the category of "Radiant supporter" by default - I would love to see UF get published. But I am a fair weather supporter, in that I know very little about Radiant/Valley, and only learned about "the case" and others' very strong opinions about R/V long after I'd pledged. I have noticed you pop into UF threads frequently to ask after topics that might be considered a little off topic of the OP. Did you pledge for UF, know Phil Sauer (sp?), or have some unpleasant experience with R/V? I reckon it's none of my business, but I must admit: I'm very curious!
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Steve Bachman
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Shadrach wrote:
Ward wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
Ward wrote:
Shadrach wrote:
This thread, being a Radiant thread not really a Up Front thread, and at best being something better put in the allowed 'mega thread' is begging to be locked.

It directly impacts Up Front. What reason would there be to lock it other than because some folks don't want to, or can't, reasonably answer these questions?

If you can't stay on topic, feel free to ignore the thread.


Because it is redundent and not game-related. If you really want answers and not just attention you should delete it and repost your questions in the mega-thread. There are plenty of people there who will glaidly discuss itand have subscribed to it so they will even be notified when you post to it.

You will achieve better results doing it that way.
i
Redundancy is not a reason to lock a thread, otherwise all of the KS updates 6 months ago and art updates this week would have been locked.

Perhaps you glossed over the last sentence in the original post. This thread serves as a location to link to but also where the folks claiming Radiant is on the up and up can answer these questions without having to cope with the other topics - legal and otherwise - discussed in the mega-thread.

Thanks for the advice, but I posted where I felt it belonged. If you care to address the topic, feel free. Otherwise, feel free to ignore the thread.


I did red x the thread because I do think it should be moved(to radiant's forum) but just to be fair my reply:

1) on the subject of why specific business practices regarding physical production and transfers took place. You would need a fairly advanced business class to nail down a lot of that. There are things like utilizing the other comlany's physical presence rather than doubling it up, working with vendkrs under an established mark for better rates, and other things. The short version is that two companies doesn't mean two buildings anymore for various reasons of the way markets/regulation function. Business just isn't as simlle as laymen want to believe it is.

2) as to the logo usage. Plenty of reasons for this too, and speculation is just that. One of the reasons I avoid the other thread is disproving a conspiracy is basically like wrestling with the wind, and there are people over there who seem to think the bgg admins are involved somehow so... yeah...

One potential reason out of many, and one I won't defend because I have no attachment to it above others would be a sort of reputation double dip. If Radiant runs multiple KS campaigns it gets known on KS and the brand can draw people in. You don't need to see Radiant on the box, its on KS and that is where it 'sells' itself. By the time you get the box you bought it already. Valley on the box will put people of a mind that Valley is associated(even if it isn't) and as it is on a physical game they will be reminded of the good game when they see fhe logo on other physical box games(of which valley has several) and hopefully buy based on that. It could work as a fair-trade arrangement for Radiant utilizing some of valley's contacts/distribution channels.

This sort of thing happens fairly frequently(one name plastered across the front while another name did the work) but again, it is just one in a sea of ideas, so don't bother picking it apart; it won't net you anything.

Now I'm going to go jog.

Edit: wow admin ninja'd while I was writing. Now to jog!

So the reason Radiant hasn't generated company revenue is because they are using advanced business practices that laymen wouldn't comprehend?

I like the reason you stated for the Valley logos on the products - Valley receives help boosting their image for quality products to help sell their other games. That makes a good deal of sense, from a Valley Games perspective. But what's in it for Radiant Gaming?

What is Radiant Gaming in business for if not to make money and sell it's products? I get the 'producing for another company' concept, but companies that do that generally get compensated for their work.
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Josh
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Because Valley games can't run Kickstarter projects. Radiant games is a separate legal antity(as far as I can tell) with a purpose of running kickstart projects to generate revenue that is used in the production of games. It is not a 'for profit' company. It has no shareholders, and is not the sole source of income for the owners, so they don't worry about profits.

Edit:The notion of businesses run not 'for profits' is one of those things that would be covered in the advanced business classes. Tax purposes, channel control, anti-monopoly regulation, local domestic vs international business regulations(like kickstarter) can all be reasons to start up a 'business' that don't involve profit.
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Steve, you specifically asked me to chime in here, so I didn't want you to think I was ignoring the invitation.

Unfortunately, I think this has little to do with the point I was trying to make in the other thread. I was simply stating that the backdating email was not enough proof for me of nefarious activity and that overall people should not be relying on it as a confirmed fact to get a refund.

To answer your question here, though, I was personally swayed by the sworn statement in the court documents that Rik and Torben attempted to arrange a payment plan with Phil, but that he refused anything less than full payment. I don't know where that fell in the timeline, but it means that any transfer of money for less than the full amount doesn't seem shifty to me, until I see more evidence. It could just as easily be explained as consolidating resources with the intent of eventually satisfying the full payment. That's just as plausible and speculation-based as the assumptions of wrong-doing.

I'm starting to believe that Phil's legal team doesn't really believe they have a shot at the Kickstarter money, but they had to come in strong so that any later compromise will still be a win for them. As a gamer, I understand that much, even if I do suck at negotiation games. What's scary is how folks around here have quickly latched on to Phil's opening gambit as the absolute truth of the situation and are making decisions and advocating action based on it.
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Ophryon wrote:
What's scary is how folks around here have quickly latched on to Phil's opening gambit as the absolute truth of the situation and are making decisions and advocating action based on it.


Seen any Elections recently?

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Jeffrey McC
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Shadrach wrote:
Ophryon wrote:
What's scary is how folks around here have quickly latched on to Phil's opening gambit as the absolute truth of the situation and are making decisions and advocating action based on it.


Seen any Elections recently?



Hah! I would make a reply involving Congress, but I don't want to get this thread moved yet again to RSP.
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
Ophryon wrote:
To answer your question here, though, I was personally swayed by the sworn statement in the court documents that Rik and Torben attempted to arrange a payment plan with Phil, but that he refused anything less than full payment. I don't know where that fell in the timeline, but it means that any transfer of money for less than the full amount doesn't seem shifty to me, until I see more evidence. It could just as easily be explained as consolidating resources with the intent of eventually satisfying the full payment. That's just as plausible and speculation-based as the assumptions of wrong-doing.


I've had Rik as a guest in my home. Without betraying any confidences about what he may or may not have said in detail about this situation I can say that this: He came over to borrow some sources re: artwork for Up Front. We naturally talked about old board games, I showed him my original and well-worn copy of UF and the subject got around to the elephant in the room. I waved him off telling him that it was really none of my business and I wasn't all that interested in the legal proceedings. His response was to, in essence, shrug shoulders and say that he had nothing to hide. Again, I'm not going to go into what he told me, partly because I genuinely don't think it is anybody's business but the principals involved, partly because I had no real skin in the game (you know what they say about investment capital - if you can't afford to lose it, don't invest it), and partly because I've forgotten the fine details - they honestly don't matter to me, and didn't at the time. It's between them. But the post quoted above seems to capture pretty well the sense I had of that conversation, i.e. there are two sides to every story, and that nothing "shifty" was going on.

As someone who studied history in university, it occurs to me that the 'truth' of the matter will not likely be knowable by any of "us" by this point, having been obscured by the actions of not only the participants (I don't mean through duplicity but apparent different versions in order to achieve different aims), but now by about 3,000 posts on the forums giving wildly different interpretations of events, mostly by third parties. It is possible there will not be any great coming together of the 'factions' even once a judgement is made. The sums of money that are apparently involved here may prevent that.


I never studied History in university, just Philosophy and critical thinking, so I may be off here.

By definition, hiding something is incongruous with "I have nothing to hide."

Radiant's money was as safe with the garnishee, ViewPoint Bank, as anywhere, unless Rik was afraid of a bank robbery. Since, VRE transferred all their money out of sight (that hiding thing again) of the court, the judge ordered the deposit into the registry, but only $260K, the amount of the PA and CA judgments.

Now, if Phil wins his case, and is awarded court costs and attorney's fees, VRE's lawyer can say the rest of money is gone, who knows where, attorney-client priviledge, and Phil can chase after the rest of his award all over again.

Furthermore, if VRE desperately needs the money with another company, in order to pay the costs of printing an upcoming wargame, and that transfer of funds might demonstrate a single business enterprise, well it's better then that these transactions are, well, hidden, from the court's eyes.

It's hard to tell for a lack of transparency, which I don't know if it's a technical term used in historicity, means stuff is hidden.
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Isaac Citrom
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You mean like this:


Michael Dorosh wrote:
[quoting somoene else]

I've had Rik as a guest in my home. Without betraying any confidences about what he may or may not have said in detail about this situation I can say that this: He came over to borrow some sources re: artwork for Up Front. We naturally talked about old board games, I showed him my original and well-worn copy of UF and the subject got around to the elephant in the room. I waved him off telling him that it was really none of my business and I wasn't all that interested in the legal proceedings. His response was to, in essence, shrug shoulders and say that he had nothing to hide. Again, I'm not going to go into what he told me, partly because I genuinely don't think it is anybody's business but the principals involved, partly because I had no real skin in the game (you know what they say about investment capital - if you can't afford to lose it, don't invest it), and partly because I've forgotten the fine details - they honestly don't matter to me, and didn't at the time. It's between them. But the post quoted above seems to capture pretty well the sense I had of that conversation, i.e. there are two sides to every story, and that nothing "shifty" was going on.

As someone who studied history in university, it occurs to me that the 'truth' of the matter will not likely be knowable ...


Are you sure you didn't go to law school, instead.

Or, maybe business school: "you know what they say about investment capital - if you can't afford to lose it, don't invest it."
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Isaac Citrom
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Michael Dorosh wrote:
I'm suggesting all the "anti-" crusaders and the "pro-" crusaders should probably just give it a rest until it comes out in the wash.


Yes, thanks, first thing after breakfast.
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Steve Bachman
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Michael and Issac, please take your personal and off-topic conversation elsewhere.

This thread is simply asking for someone to make sense of the "Radiant is a legitimate and independent game company" defense, and "they're good guys I've had coffee with" doesn't address it at all. If you want to talk about the big litigation picture, take it to the mega-thread please.
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