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Subject: Leader Casualty Check with Bows rss

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Dale Hurtt
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A unit with Bows shoots a unit, eliminated it, and the Leader remains. Does the Bow unit get a Leader Casualty Check?

1. Bows cannot generate Swords as Hits.
2. The Leader was not Alone in the Hex when the attack started.
3. Leader Casualty Check says if "the unit is eliminated in close combat or
ranged combat, roll 1 die and if it is a sword, the leader is killed and the opponent gets a victory banner."
4. Reference Card states, for line Leader Alone: "See Note 1", which says "Note 1: Only Ashigaru Arquebus units hit on Swords."

So, is the Leader Casualty Check an exception when the Bow can kill a leader? Point 4 seems to argue against it, that Bows can never kill a Leader in Ranged Combat.

Dale

P.S. We did not play that way, and the Leader Casualty Check failed, so it was not a game breaker. But it was close.
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Mark McG
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From the FAQ;
Quote:

Leader Casualty Checks:
- A leader casualty check is taken BEFORE retreats are resolved
- If the unit takes casualties in ranged combat, roll 2 dice and if both are swords the leader is killed and the opponent gets a victory banner.
- If the unit takes casualties in close combat OR the unit is eliminated in close combat or ranged combat, roll 1 die and if it is a sword, the leader is killed and the opponent gets a victory banner.
- If the unit was eliminated but the leader survived the casualty check, he must retreat or commit seppuku.
- If the leader is attacked alone, the attacking unit rolls dice as normal and any sword hit will kill the leader. Note that a bow unit cannot target a leader in ranged combat because they do not hit on swords.


So whilst this makes it very clear that lone leaders can't be hit by bow units using ranged fire, it makes no such comment about leader checks where the leader is with a unit. At face reading, the leader checks apply as normal to attacks from bow units.

There is a logical anomaly here. If they can't be hit by themselves, why can they suffer leader casualties with a unit? However, the FAQ (and rules on p.12 seem to indicate that it is the case. As always, the rules take precedent over logic (as in life, as in games).

The logical alternative is that Bows do get leader checks as stated, but can't hit on swords, therefore the leader cannot be killed. That would make sense, and matches the historical situation as I understand the penetrative capabilities of Japanese archery vs Samurai armour.

So as written, it seems to favour that leader checks apply normally even by bow units, but it could be clearer.
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David Millette
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This question reminds me of another we had in regards to leader retreats.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/10183571#10183571

Again, by highlighting that a bow unit cannot hit a "lone" leader in ranged combat and by putting that in the section titled "Leader Alone in a Hex", confusion has been created.

I am of the mindset that a bow unit does not hit with a sword at range, so a bow unit cannot hit a lone leader (normal bow unit die roll), an attached leader whose unit lost one or more figures in the attack (2 die leader check), or an leader whose attached unit lost its last figure (1 die leader check).

Again, it would make no sense to me if a leader could be hit at range by a bow unit on a leader check when attached to a unit, but not be hit when defenseless and alone.

I think the references on page 9 & 11 that state "for scoring a hit on a leader; see the Leader Casualty Check rules section." support that in all situations whether via leader checks or attacking leaders alone, the rolls are considered hits (in which case a bowman does not hit with a sword at range).

It is also mentioned on page 12, "When a leader is with a unit and the unit loses one or more figures in combat (ranged or close combat) there is a chance that the leader may also be hit and a leader check must be rolled against the leader". Here the terms "leader check" and "hit" are linked together. If a bow unit cannot hit on a sword roll at range, then he has no chance of hitting the leader either in my opinion?

I also agree that normal leader check rules would still apply. Thus a leader attached to a unit that loses its last figure to a ranged bow unit would still be forced to retreat 1-3 hexes, pay 3 honor & fortune tokens, or commit seppuku. To me, not being able to hit on swords is not the same thing as saying that a leader check should not occur at all (thus no leader check rules apply).

I look forward to seeing the official response.
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Richard Borg
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mille1212 wrote:
Again, by highlighting that a bow unit cannot hit a "lone" leader in ranged combat and by putting that in the section titled "Leader Alone in a Hex", confusion has been created.

I am of the mindset that a bow unit does not hit with a sword at range, so a bow unit cannot hit a lone leader (normal bow unit die roll), an attached leader whose unit lost one or more figures in the attack (2 die leader check), or an leader whose attached unit lost its last figure (1 die leader check).

Again, it would make no sense to me if a leader could be hit at range by a bow unit on a leader check when attached to a unit, but not be hit when defenseless and alone.

I look forward to seeing the official response.


Hi David
It is not so much a question of game play logic as a case of honor when dealing with a range bow weapon unit targeting a leader alone in a hex.

From our reading of Medieval Japanese history, unlike some later historical period fighting, it was not at all honorable to snipe at a lone leader and therefore the rule, "A range weapon bow unit cannot target a lone leader in ranged combat" was placed under the rule section, Leader Alone in a Hex.

Thanks for playing, Enjoy!
Richard Borg

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David Millette
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richard borg wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
Again, by highlighting that a bow unit cannot hit a "lone" leader in ranged combat and by putting that in the section titled "Leader Alone in a Hex", confusion has been created.

I am of the mindset that a bow unit does not hit with a sword at range, so a bow unit cannot hit a lone leader (normal bow unit die roll), an attached leader whose unit lost one or more figures in the attack (2 die leader check), or an leader whose attached unit lost its last figure (1 die leader check).

Again, it would make no sense to me if a leader could be hit at range by a bow unit on a leader check when attached to a unit, but not be hit when defenseless and alone.

I look forward to seeing the official response.


Hi David
It is not so much a question of game play logic as a case of honor when dealing with a range bow weapon unit targeting a leader alone in a hex.

From our reading of Medieval Japanese history, unlike some later historical period fighting, it was not at all honorable to snipe at a lone leader and therefore the rule, "A range weapon bow unit cannot target a lone leader in ranged combat" was placed under the rule section, Leader Alone in a Hex.

Thanks for playing, Enjoy!
Richard Borg



Thanks for the clarification Richard, but I am still not 100% certain I understand the three situations described earlier in the thread. Can you respond to each of these, so I know that the tournament games are being played properly.

1.A bow unit scores one or more hits at range on a unit with an attached leader. The unit still has at least one figure left. Does the bow unit get to roll a two die leader check with two swords killing the leader (even though the bow unit does not normally hit on sword rolls)?

2.A bow unit scores one or more hits at range on a unit with an attached leader. All of the unit's figures are destroyed leaving the leader alone in the hex. Does the bow unit get to roll a one die leader check with one sword killing the leader (even though the bow unit does not normally hit on sword rolls)? If he can't hit on the sword roll, then would the leader still be required to at least retreat 1-3 hexes and lose 3 honor tokens, or commit seppuku? Or, based on your response, is the bow unit not allowed to perform a leader check at all in this situation since the leader is now alone in the hex?

3.Based on your explanation. A bow unit cannot target a leader that begins the turn alone in a hex period, so no hits or automatic leader retreats would apply. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.
 
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Mark McG
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richard borg wrote:

Hi David
It is not so much a question of game play logic as a case of honor when dealing with a range bow weapon unit targeting a leader alone in a hex.

From our reading of Medieval Japanese history, unlike some later historical period fighting, it was not at all honorable to snipe at a lone leader and therefore the rule, "A range weapon bow unit cannot target a lone leader in ranged combat" was placed under the rule section, Leader Alone in a Hex.

Thanks for playing, Enjoy!
Richard Borg



Reading between the lines here, the implication seems to be that lone leaders were not targeted by bowmen (but were by gunners?), but that a leader with a unit could be killed by accidental, unaimed fire.

However, I have in mind several images of Samurai facing a vertitable hail of arrows




These are 2 I found, but it wasn't the one I had in mind of a mounted samurai on a white horse with perhaps a dozen arrow hits, and the air around full of arrows.
 
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Dale Hurtt
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A Samurai is not necessarily a leader, although a leader would be a Samurai (during this period), so those pictures are not really conclusive of anything (although cool). If they are pictures of named commanders, on the other hand ... they would still not be conclusive when it comes to the game rules.
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Richard Borg
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mille1212 wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Richard, but I am still not 100% certain I understand the three situations described earlier in the thread. Can you respond to each of these, so I know that the tournament games are being played properly.

1.A bow unit scores one or more hits at range on a unit with an attached leader. The unit still has at least one figure left. Does the bow unit get to roll a two die leader check with two swords killing the leader (even though the bow unit does not normally hit on sword rolls)?

(RB) Looks like the issue you are having is that a range weapon unit does not hit on swords during ranged combat, which actually has nothing to do with the game mechanic of the Ranged Combat Leader Casualty Check Procedure found on page 12. As the rule is written in this case, the leader casualty check is made by rolling 2 battle dice. When two swords symbols are rolled the leader is eliminated.

mille1212 wrote:
2.A bow unit scores one or more hits at range on a unit with an attached leader. All of the unit's figures are destroyed leaving the leader alone in the hex. Does the bow unit get to roll a one die leader check with one sword killing the leader (even though the bow unit does not normally hit on sword rolls)?

(RB) Actually the bow unit does not get to roll for the leader casualty check.

Quote:
If he can't hit on the sword roll, then would the leader still be required to at least retreat 1-3 hexes and lose 3 honor tokens, or commit seppuku? Or, based on your response, is the bow unit not allowed to perform a leader check at all in this situation since the leader is now alone in the hex?

(RB) The game mechanic of Ranged Combat Leader Casualty Check Procedure found on page 12, works the same for any ranged combat unit that eliminates all the figures in the unit. As the rule is written in this case, the leader casualty check is made by rolling 1 battle die. When one sword symbol is rolled the leader is eliminated. The Leader Casualty Check Procedure game mechanic takes effect and it really does not matter what range weapon unit eliminated all the figures in the unit for the game mechanic of a Leader Casualty Check Procedure to take effect.[/q]

mille1212 wrote:
3.Based on your explanation. A bow unit cannot target a leader that begins the turn alone in a hex period, so no hits or automatic leader retreats would apply. Is this correct?

(RB) The rule is actually found under the Leader Alone in a Hex heading on page 13. A range weapon bow unit cannot hit a lone leader in ranged combat...

I do hope this helps, Enjoy!
Richard Borg
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David Millette
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Thanks Richard. I think I got it now. In summary:

1.When a unit with an attached leader is hit at range, but still has figures remaining, both the bowmen and the arquebusiers would roll a two die leader check, killing the leader on a die roll of two swords.

2.When a unit with an attached leader is hit at range and the last figure is eliminated (leaving a leader alone in a hex), the bowmen would not get to perform a leader check at all (can't target a lone leader) and the arquebusier would roll a one die leader check, killing the leader on a roll of one sword.

3.When attacking a leader that is not attached to any unit and thus is alone in a hex, the bowmen would not get to perform a leader check at all (can't target a lone leader) and the arquebusier would roll a normal ranged attack roll, killing the leader with die roll of at least one sword.

 
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Richard Borg
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mille1212 wrote:
Thanks Richard. I think I got it now. In summary:

1.When a unit with an attached leader is hit at range, but still has figures remaining, both the bowmen and the arquebusiers would roll a two die leader check, killing the leader on a die roll of two swords.

2.When a unit with an attached leader is hit at range and the last figure is eliminated (leaving a leader alone in a hex), the bowmen would not get to perform a leader check at all (can't target a lone leader) and the arquebusier would roll a one die leader check, killing the leader on a roll of one sword.

3.When attacking a leader that is not attached to any unit and thus is alone in a hex, the bowmen would not get to perform a leader check at all (can't target a lone leader) and the arquebusier would roll a normal ranged attack roll, killing the leader with die roll of at least one sword.



Sorry, Point 2 is incorrect.
Richard Borg
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David Millette
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richard borg wrote:
mille1212 wrote:
Thanks Richard. I think I got it now. In summary:

1.When a unit with an attached leader is hit at range, but still has figures remaining, both the bowmen and the arquebusiers would roll a two die leader check, killing the leader on a die roll of two swords.

2.When a unit with an attached leader is hit at range and the last figure is eliminated (leaving a leader alone in a hex), the bowmen would not get to perform a leader check at all (can't target a lone leader) and the arquebusier would roll a one die leader check, killing the leader on a roll of one sword.

3.When attacking a leader that is not attached to any unit and thus is alone in a hex, the bowmen would not get to perform a leader check at all (can't target a lone leader) and the arquebusier would roll a normal ranged attack roll, killing the leader with die roll of at least one sword.



Sorry, Point 2 is incorrect.
Richard Borg


No need to be sorry. Just trying to clarify. Would this be correct then?

2.When a unit with an attached leader is hit at range and the last figure is eliminated (leaving a leader alone in a hex), both the bowmen and the arquebusiers would roll a one die leader check, killing the leader on a sword die roll.
 
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Brad Bell
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mille1212 wrote:
No need to be sorry. Just trying to clarify. Would this be correct then?

2.When a unit with an attached leader is hit at range and the last figure is eliminated (leaving a leader alone in a hex), both the bowmen and the arquebusiers would roll a one die leader check, killing the leader on a sword die roll.


Yes.

The important point here is that the Leader Casualty Check roll has no bearing on whether the unit can normally hit a leader. If a unit of archers is shooting at an enemy unit it is always possible that the leader gets struck down by a random arrow. (Harold Godwinson at Hastings...)
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David Millette
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Got it. Thanks everyone...
 
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