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Subject: Historian and Leader purchase rss

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Frank Otte
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At our session with Leaders yesterday, we had the following situation:

In the beginning of the game, one of the players wanted to choose the "Historian Sorcerers". He had only his 5 coins starting amount of victory coins. "Historian Sorcerers" were on sixth rank though, so he had to spend all is five coins to skip 5 race sets. Fair enough.

But after that, this player additionally wanted to purchase the Sorcerer-Leader for 1 coin. Since at this time the "Lost Tribes" were on the board, he argumented, that he pays the leader with the one coin he gets from the historian ability. Is that possible?

I know, the purchase of the leader must happen immediately with choice of the race, but on the other hand, the historians state "Collect 1 bonus Victory coin for each Race In Decline at the time you select the Historians."

So, what must happen sooner? Or is it indeed simultaneous and he is able to pay the leader with his income?
 
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Jerbear
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Good question. I would be inclined to let him have it.
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J
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In all honesty the only point of the starting 5 coins is to allow you to purchase any race you want at the start of the game. Regardless if everyone starts with 5 coins or if everyone starts with 100 coins it doesn't affect anyone's placing at game end.

Normally the most coins you can spend at game start is 5 coins hence why I think that number was picked. However when playing with leaders the most coins you can spend at game start is 6 coins. Hence when I play with leaders I give everyone 6 coins to start with since it has no affect on final scores and gives all players the opportunity to pick the race they want and purchase a leader if they desire.
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Frank Otte
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That the choice in the beginning should intentionally be unlimited, is questionable, I think.

What about the cursed special ability. You don't hand out every player 8 coins, if cursed is in play from the beginning, right?
 
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J
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In all honesty I think cursed is a terrible power by which I mean I think it brings horrible game mechanics to the game (not the obvious that it is a bad power overall) which I do not like at all. As such I have removed it from my games since I don't believe it's presence adds to the game and if anything detracts from it namely if it comes out early. I could go on but that's not the point of this thread.

As for whether I would grant all players 8 coins to start with if I was playing with it my answer is I would not but there is a clear difference between the cursed power and the leader expansion.

In the case of the leader expansion whenever you play with it you always know even before the game starts that if you take the top race banner with it's leader it will cost the player 6 coins. Ignoring the cursed power there is no instance where this is not true hence as far as I'm concerned it only makes sense to give this option to all players from the get go.

Cursed is a attribute which randomly turns up and the game and people's choices are supposed to be affected by the races/attributes that randomly pops up. You do not know for sure that Cursed will be in a given game so if it pops up early in the pick well than that's just the way the game happened to occur and you need to work around it.

If instead Cursed was always guaranteed to be one of the starting 5 picks I probably would house rule it so players started with 8 money instead.
 
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Frank Otte
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Ok, then I should add, that I am not out for house ruling at all, with my question. I am only interested in official ruling. Not in the sense, that I only would accept official judgement, but in the sense, that I look for answers, which make at least the attempt, to come as close as possible to the rules, how the game was meant to be played, without personal judgement of these rules.

Neither bothers me randomness, at least not in this game, because I think, Small World is already full of randomness. It draws it's main part of the fun from randomness, in my opinion. This is even more true with "Tales and Legends", which are an integral part of our sessions. Since you can only have randomness, if you accept the case of an imbalancing external situation, we also accept the lack of balance in this game. Therefor, such things like "Cursed" are not a problem for us.




 
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Jeffrey Drozek-Fitzwater
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Hermjard wrote:
At our session with Leaders yesterday, we had the following situation:

In the beginning of the game, one of the players wanted to choose the "Historian Sorcerers". He had only his 5 coins starting amount of victory coins. "Historian Sorcerers" were on sixth rank though, so he had to spend all is five coins to skip 5 race sets. Fair enough.

But after that, this player additionally wanted to purchase the Sorcerer-Leader for 1 coin. Since at this time the "Lost Tribes" were on the board, he argumented, that he pays the leader with the one coin he gets from the historian ability. Is that possible?

I know, the purchase of the leader must happen immediately with choice of the race, but on the other hand, the historians state "Collect 1 bonus Victory coin for each Race In Decline at the time you select the Historians."

So, what must happen sooner? Or is it indeed simultaneous and he is able to pay the leader with his income?


I would let the player have the leader. It's a good question.

And I think the Cursed power is great.
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Danny Mack
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allstar64 wrote:
In all honesty I think cursed is a terrible power...As such I have removed it from my games since I don't believe it's presence adds to the game and if anything detracts from it.

Oh, Allstar, Allstar...
Yet again we disagree.

To the OP:
Since the wording on both rules matches (History & Leaders) I would say both operations occur simultaneously. Turns out Historian may be the only power that can give someone the ability to take the #6 slot race/power combo and buy the Leader.
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J
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bandit_boy7 wrote:

Oh, Allstar, Allstar...
Yet again we disagree.


I don't deny that I'm probably not of the popular opinion on this one but I felt it was only fair to admit it if I was commenting on the attribute.

I've played with it a few times when I got Cursed originally and for the most part people didn't like it. I think it came up early one too many times and killed every ones ability to select races which was a big turn off.

The other issue is nowadays I'm constantly teaching new players and probably about 90% of the times I play now I'm teaching at least 1 new player.

All the attributes and roles are overwhelming enough and I think it's good to limit the new players to focusing on the role that they want to select rather than a role that they probably don't want but affects them anyway.
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Danny Mack
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Fair enough.
I usually have at least 1 newbie too when I play/teach, but I almost always just play with vanilla + my 3 races (so we don't run out and have to recycle) on their first go.
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Jeffrey Drozek-Fitzwater
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bandit_boy7 wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
In all honesty I think cursed is a terrible power...As such I have removed it from my games since I don't believe it's presence adds to the game and if anything detracts from it.

Oh, Allstar, Allstar...
Yet again we disagree.

To the OP:
Since the wording on both rules matches (History & Leaders) I would say both operations occur simultaneously. Turns out Historian may be the only power that can give someone the ability to take the #6 slot race/power combo and buy the Leader.


Hooray! Historian sucks a little less!
 
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