Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
26 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Game» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Going crazy with stealth device on evade-happy TIE build? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Playing around with a super-evasive build...

Quote:
98 points

Pilots
------

Academy Pilot (15)
Upgrades: Stealth Device (3)

Academy Pilot (15)
Upgrades: Stealth Device (3)

Academy Pilot (15)
Upgrades: Stealth Device (3)

Academy Pilot (15)
Upgrades: Stealth Device (3)

Academy Pilot (15)
Upgrades: Stealth Device (3)

Howlrunner (23)
Upgrades: Squad Leader (2), Stealth Device (3)


...plan being that pretty much everyone just uses 'evade' every turn, and tries to stay in tight formation around Howlrunner - particularly for close-range attack passe at the enemy (the 'free action' from being a squad leader usually being a 'focus' token, then, which combined with the re-rolling one die should allow the close-range attacks to be fairly effective - well, at least on one of the ships, of course).

Thoughts?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Nushmut
msg tools
Avatar
I'm not sure taking evade is the right thing to do. When rolling 4 agility dice, I believe focus gives you an average of 1 extra evade anyway. Might as well focus with everyone (perhaps evade with Howlrunner only, if you think it might dissuade your opponent from attacking him).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chad Hackman
Canada
Brampton
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One assault missile attack that goes through will automatically take down Stealth on every ship within range 1 of its target.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tertullian wrote:
I'm not sure taking evade is the right thing to do. When rolling 4 agility dice, I believe focus gives you an average of 1 extra evade anyway. Might as well focus with everyone (perhaps evade with Howlrunner only, if you think it might dissuade your opponent from attacking him).


Sounds about right - the d8 has 3 evades, 2 focus, 3 blanks. IE., 25% chance of a 'focus' on each die.

I guess the only problem is that I'm not really sure I'd like to play the odds. As only a single hit is needed to knock the stealth device out of operation, and once a fighter loses its stealth, it's going to die quite quickly. Maybe on turns I plan to end at range 3 from the enemy, so have 5 defense dice, that might make sense. (And the very-low pilot skill on the academy pilots would work out alright with focus tokens, here - I will know, by the time they get around to shooting, if I needed to save the focus token for defense or not...by the time an academy pilot is ready to shoot, all the opponents will have taken their shots at him, or not...)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Krüger
Germany
Krefeld
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
xKoBiEx wrote:
One assault missile attack that goes through will automatically take down Stealth on every ship within range 1 of its target.


No,they are not hit, they just suffer damage. Assault missiles will be bad for this tactic, still, though.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thamos von Nostria wrote:
xKoBiEx wrote:
One assault missile attack that goes through will automatically take down Stealth on every ship within range 1 of its target.


No,they are not hit, they just suffer damage. Assault missiles will be bad for this tactic, still, though.


Guess I'll just have to stay at range 3 until the enemy has used up his assault missiles?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wilder

Daly City
California
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
XanderF wrote:
I guess the only problem is that I'm not really sure I'd like to play the odds.

That's the trade-off, of course.

The problem is that every Evade that goes unused -- and on a six-TIE swarm, that's gonna be quite a few -- is a wasted action, whereas Focus, while risky, isn't wasted if a TIE doesn't get shot at.

With four defense dice, all-around Focus -- as said, with the possible Howlrunner exception -- is clearly the effective choice. With three dice, it becomes a significantly closer decision. (I'd still go Focus, usually, because -- like Dewey Oxburger -- I'm an aggressive gambler.)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jeff Wilder wrote:
With four defense dice, all-around Focus -- as said, with the possible Howlrunner exception -- is clearly the effective choice. With three dice, it becomes a significantly closer decision. (I'd still go Focus, usually, because -- like Dewey Oxburger -- I'm an aggressive gambler.)


The question is - what is 'wasted'? If I'm playing a defensive game, then having that evade token on a fighter and causing the enemy (as a result) to not shoot at it at all isn't really "wasting" it.

As it is, with 4d8, I've got about 68% chance of rolling at least one 'focus' (of course, with a 26% chance of at least two 'focus' results). Still, that's also nearly a 1/3 chance of rolling zero focus results - and that truly would be 'wasting' the token! I then lose my stealth, and that fighter goes bye-bye next turn for sure, if not the same turn by someone shooting later in the firing order...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wilder

Daly City
California
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
XanderF wrote:
As it is, with 4d8, I've got about 68% chance of rolling at least one 'focus' (of course, with a 26% chance of at least two 'focus' results). Still, that's also nearly a 1/3 chance of rolling zero focus results - and that truly would be 'wasting' the token! I then lose my stealth, and that fighter goes bye-bye next turn for sure, if not the same turn by someone shooting later in the firing order...

IMO, you're still concentrating too much on the one ship being shot at, and ignoring the opportunity cost of taking Evade on all the other ships (namely, not having Focus for offense, which TIE fighters desperately need). And it's an even steeper opportunity cost than usual, because with Howlrunner, Focus becomes even more offensively valuable. (With Focus, the Howl-roll is 50 percent more likely to be a hit.)

Losing the benefits of Stealth Device on the ship being shot at would suck. But losing the extra offense of all those other Focus tokens would, IMO, suck much, much worse. And, of course, that's even assuming that the Evade does keep the ship from getting hit (as opposed to it just doing one less damage).

If this were an issue of maneuvering or something, right now I'd mutter about how much I suck at those things and bow out. But this is numbers, and there's just no doubt that all-around Focus is more effective than all-around Evade, even in this extreme defensive squadron. It's just math.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Scott
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
XanderF wrote:
Thamos von Nostria wrote:
xKoBiEx wrote:
One assault missile attack that goes through will automatically take down Stealth on every ship within range 1 of its target.


No,they are not hit, they just suffer damage. Assault missiles will be bad for this tactic, still, though.


Guess I'll just have to stay at range 3 until the enemy has used up his assault missiles?


Not sure there's any benefit to this as the extra defensive die for range 3 is only used for primary weapon attacks...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jeff Wilder wrote:
XanderF wrote:
As it is, with 4d8, I've got about 68% chance of rolling at least one 'focus' (of course, with a 26% chance of at least two 'focus' results). Still, that's also nearly a 1/3 chance of rolling zero focus results - and that truly would be 'wasting' the token! I then lose my stealth, and that fighter goes bye-bye next turn for sure, if not the same turn by someone shooting later in the firing order...

IMO, you're still concentrating too much on the one ship being shot at, and ignoring the opportunity cost of taking Evade on all the other ships (namely, not having Focus for offense, which TIE fighters desperately need). And it's an even steeper opportunity cost than usual, because with Howlrunner, Focus becomes even more offensively valuable. (With Focus, the Howl-roll is 50 percent more likely to be a hit.)


Right, but I'm basically conceding with this arrangement that my offensive potential is very low. I'm just trying to arrange the *enemy's* offensive potential to be '0' (or close enough to it). If the enemy can never land a hit, then it doesn't really matter if it takes me four turns to finally land enough shots to take out an X-Wing, I'm still coming out ahead.

This is very much a squadron arranged to play a LOOOONG game.

Jeff Wilder wrote:
But this is numbers, and there's just no doubt that all-around Focus is more effective than all-around Evade, even in this extreme defensive squadron. It's just math.


Indeed, it is 'just math'. With four defense dice, spending an action on 'focus' instead of 'evade' means I can expect:
- 31% chance of the choice making me worse off (no 'focus' results), the ship losing stealth with the hit and being quickly destroyed
- 68% of it being a wash and I get at least one 'focus' result (IE., exact same result as if I'd chosen 'evade')
- 26% (as a subset of the 68%, obviously) chance of this working out better than choosing 'evade' in that I have at least 2 'focus' results come up.

Given merely a 1/4 chance of choosing 'focus' over 'evade' working out to my advantage*...and a 1/3 chance of it being much worse...the math seems to point in favor of being more cautious.

* You mention the opportunity cost of taking evade on all the ships, and it effectively 'not being used'. However, I think the closest analogy for evaluating the opportunity cost of this is insurance coverage. Losing stealth, in this arrangement, is a guarantee of quick death of the ship. It is - as a result - very, VERY valuable to retain - which means it is critical that I never get 'hit' (or have this happen as rarely as possible). Measured against the cost of 'doing slightly more damage to the enemy', it is really quite a one-sided comparison.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
scomatt9 wrote:
XanderF wrote:
Thamos von Nostria wrote:
xKoBiEx wrote:
One assault missile attack that goes through will automatically take down Stealth on every ship within range 1 of its target.


No,they are not hit, they just suffer damage. Assault missiles will be bad for this tactic, still, though.


Guess I'll just have to stay at range 3 until the enemy has used up his assault missiles?


Not sure there's any benefit to this as the extra defensive die for range 3 is only used for primary weapon attacks...


D'oh! Good point. So I do have a bit of a problem against an enemy that goes heavy on assault missiles.

Good thing those things are so expensive...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Krüger
Germany
Krefeld
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The Squad Leader does not really fit in there. When Howlrunner uses it, she cannot defend herself, so she will die quickly. She is also the primary target of your enemy. And if you do not use it, it is 2 points and an upgrade slot wasted. Push the Limit or Expert Handling could be better choices.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thamos von Nostria wrote:
The Squad Leader does not really fit in there. When Howlrunner uses it, she cannot defend herself, so she will die quickly. She is also the primary target of your enemy. And if you do not use it, it is 2 points and an upgrade slot wasted. Push the Limit or Expert Handling could be better choices.


Good point - 'expert handling' definitely a better choice, as Howlrunner being a primary target choice means she'll probably be picking up enemy locks at a higher rate than the other fighters. Being able to shed them would be useful...

Of course, I've also got the points to spare, and PTL lets her defend twice (focus + evade) at the cost of a stress token...or, I guess, defend + attack better (depends on how the focus is used)...

Yeah, definitely both better choices than the squad leader now that you point that out...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert M.
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
XanderF wrote:
Jeff Wilder wrote:
But this is numbers, and there's just no doubt that all-around Focus is more effective than all-around Evade, even in this extreme defensive squadron. It's just math.


Indeed, it is 'just math'. With four defense dice, spending an action on 'focus' instead of 'evade' means I can expect:
- 31% chance of the choice making me worse off (no 'focus' results), the ship losing stealth with the hit and being quickly destroyed
- 68% of it being a wash and I get at least one 'focus' result (IE., exact same result as if I'd chosen 'evade')
- 26% (as a subset of the 68%, obviously) chance of this working out better than choosing 'evade' in that I have at least 2 'focus' results come up.

Given merely a 1/4 chance of choosing 'focus' over 'evade' working out to my advantage*...and a 1/3 chance of it being much worse...the math seems to point in favor of being more cautious.

The expected value of Focus is 1 additional [evade] result on your dice, just like Evade.

You can certainly start talking about distributions instead of expected values Furthermore, once you include the results of the attack dice in your distributional calculations, Focus doesn't look so bad after all. If you're a TIE with Stealth being attacked at Range 2 by an X-wing with Focus:

NO BUFF FOCUS EVADE
0 hits 40.2% 73.0% 71.7%
1 hit 31.5% 19.7% 21.9%
2 hits 21.9% 6.4% 6.4%
3 hits 6.4% 0.8% 0%

MeanDmg 0.95 0.35 0.35


As you can see, choosing Focus actually results in a slight improvement in your chance to keep Stealth. There are a handful of reasons the distributions look like that, but consider this: if you consider only cases (as in that 31% where Focus is worse than Evade) where there are no [eyeball] results on the defense dice, you have a 50/50 chance of rolling an [evade] result on each die. Basically, if there are no [eyeball] results then you're actually less likely to need to spend a token to make your opponent miss. That means the cases where Focus is worse than Evade actually have about the same weight as the cases where Focus is better than Evade.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Weiss
United States
South Dakota
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Here's something to think about. Like you, most people will assume that the evade is the best way to defend the ships, and that a focus will most likely be used for offense, so...

Use evade on Howlrunner each turn, and focus on everyone else. They are just as safe (mathmatically), you'll have a better shot offensively, and the enemy will likely ignore Howlrunner in favor of the expendable ties, which is exactly what you want.

Of course if the enemy brings A-wings with homing missles, you'll want to go all focus.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kmanweiss wrote:
Here's something to think about. Like you, most people will assume that the evade is the best way to defend the ships, and that a focus will most likely be used for offense, so...

Use evade on Howlrunner each turn, and focus on everyone else. They are just as safe (mathmatically), you'll have a better shot offensively, and the enemy will likely ignore Howlrunner in favor of the expendable ties, which is exactly what you want.


That's what I always do. If my opponent fires on an Academy Pilot because it "only has Focus" (or has already spent its Focus), then I couldn't be happier. But in my experience, a good opponent will never choose to fire on an Academy Pilot as long as Howlrunner is alive anyway, so the only ship you need to protect is Howlrunner. Everybody else is going to be free to focus on offense.

In any case, Howlrunner doesn't want to use Squad Leader because the only ship worth putting two actions on is Howlrunner herself. If you want more defense for Howlrunner (on top of Stealth), either go with Push the Limit or Elusiveness (if you can't afford 3 points for PtL).

kmanweiss wrote:
Of course if the enemy brings A-wings with homing missles, you'll want to go all focus.

??

I don't get it. Do you mean "If the enemy brings A-wings with Assault Missiles, you'll want to go all Evade"?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris K.
Germany
Berlin
Berlin
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
iNano78 wrote:


kmanweiss wrote:
Of course if the enemy brings A-wings with homing missles, you'll want to go all focus.

??

I don't get it. Do you mean "If the enemy brings A-wings with Assault Missiles, you'll want to go all Evade"?


Homing Missiles prevent you from spending "Evade" Tokens against them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Dunford
Canada
Kemptville
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
chrisdk wrote:
iNano78 wrote:


kmanweiss wrote:
Of course if the enemy brings A-wings with homing missles, you'll want to go all focus.

??

I don't get it. Do you mean "If the enemy brings A-wings with Assault Missiles, you'll want to go all Evade"?


Homing Missiles prevent you from spending "Evade" Tokens against them.


Ah, forgot about that. Good point.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
iNano78 wrote:
In any case, Howlrunner doesn't want to use Squad Leader because the only ship worth putting two actions on is Howlrunner herself. If you want more defense for Howlrunner (on top of Stealth), either go with Push the Limit or Elusiveness (if you can't afford 3 points for PtL).


Indeed, that was mentioned up-thread a bit.

I'm almost more inclined to go with 'Expert Handling', though (even with the points for PTL available), as two actions from PTL is nice against blaster fire...but rather useless if the enemy brings along homing missiles (evade doesn't work against them), and if the enemy has a lock, anyway...

Better, I think, to have a means whereby I can reliably break locks. As noted, Howlrunner is going to be target #1.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cat O\'Mighty
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Swarm is better on Howlrunner when she has Stealth. It doesn't cost an action. As long as she has her Stealth Device, she's spending every action to Focus. When she no longer has Stealth, she's dead.

Not only is Focus better odds of pumping up the Stealth, if you haven't had to defend with it by the time you get to all you Skill 1 shooting, you have it for offense. Howlrunner's re-roll bonus + Focus (in that order) = killer attacks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robert M.
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
XanderF wrote:
Better, I think, to have a means whereby I can reliably break locks.

You have a perfectly valid point, but keep in mind all the things from which Expert Handling can't protect her: it won't hinder Wedge, Vader, Horton with initiative, or any pilot with Deadeye. In the Wave 2 meta, it's also worth considering that the Heavy Laser Cannon hits with close to missile strength, and doesn't require a lock at all.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Tyree
United States
Dayton
Ohio (OH)
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
what's the point cost of that build again?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Xander Fulton
United States
Astoria
Oregon
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mtyree1972 wrote:
what's the point cost of that build again?


98 with 'expert handling' on Howlrunner, 99 if I go with PTL.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cat O\'Mighty
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
And how many Romans?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.