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Subject: Can players remove samples from altars? rss

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CD F
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We played a scenario where zombies were taking samples from players and putting them on an altar. The DM didn't think that players could remove samples. A light debate occurred and players felt they should be able to grab them off the altar. What is the boards thought?
 
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Disgustipater
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There are no rules that allow samples to be removed from altars.
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CD F
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Yes but there are no rules that say we cannot use an action to pick them up.
 
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Mr. D
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What action are you thinking allows you to pick them up?
 
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Tim Taylor
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Quote:
there are no rules that say we cannot use an action to pick them up.


So what you are saying is:

"If the rules don't specifically forbid something, then it is allowed."

Perhaps you might be interested in this for a counter-example:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/9211780#9211780
 
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CD F
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Well the action that allows you to pick up items that are on a space such as guns, spells and clues. Why wouldn't we be able to take our samples off of an altar?
 
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CD F
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Yes but the rules allow an action to be used to pick up fallen or discovered items such as weapons, spells, clues etc on a space. The samples are just sitting right there. The spell being used against us needs three samples to be on the altar. Why not just use our action round to remove our samples from the altar?
 
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Roberta Yang
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Samples aren't cards, and the explore action is used to pick up cards. You can't grab samples off the altar for the same reason that you can't pick up the entire altar and walk away with it.
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CD F
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Yes well I'm not arguing that I can pick up a huge stone altar, but to pick up a piece of hair or a bit of blood should be feasible.
 
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Tibs
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Feel free to house-rule it then. Currently there is no action available to the investigators that would allow them to take back the samples.

The reason they are placed on the altar has to do with both the fact that they are limited tokens (the keeper can't take samples after so many have been placed), and that certain objectives might care about how many have been placed. To toy with the latter, at least, might screw something up unintentionally.
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Benj Davis
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I'd view it as meaning that the little ritual of placing the sample on the altar is done and taking the handful of hair won't undo it; the token is now only there as a tracking marker.
 
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Michael Kefauver
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Yeah, the rules don't say you can, so you can't, as written. It would make some objectives hilariously hard for the keeper, since the heroes could just spend a turn or two picking up all the samples and undoing the entirety of the keeper's work for no effort at all.
 
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Arthur Peterson
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Thematically, it seems clear that once the sample has been sacrificed, it cannot be un-sacrificed. So pick it up if you want, but the damage is done That's what I'd tell investigators if I were the keeper.
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CD F
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Very well! Everyone is on his side. I shant press the matter further.
 
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Guido Gloor
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Yet another case of the Munchkin Fallacy. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a matter of right or wrong.

There's nothing in the rules that forbids players to throw monsters out of the window, so should they be allowed to do that?

There's nothing in the rules that forbids players to, as an action, teleport to anywhere they want on the board, so should they be allowed to do that?

There's nothing in the rules that forbids players to set the board on fire and proclaim they won, so should they be allowed to do that?

In general, board game rules can't possibly forbid everything that isn't allowed in the game, because there is an infinite number of things you can't do and a relatively limited number of things you can do. Instead, they always tell you what you can do, and almost never tell you what you can't do. This leads to a simple truth:

If something isn't explicitly allowed by the rules, it is forbidden.

Since the rules don't allow you to set the board on fire, or throw your shoe at monsters, or teleport about, or pick up tokens from an altar, you can't.
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Guido Gloor
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kungfro wrote:
Feel free to house-rule it then. Currently there is no action available to the investigators that would allow them to take back the samples.

Indeed Just be aware that house ruling this will have huge implications for scenario balance.
 
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Chris J Davis
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haslo wrote:
kungfro wrote:
Feel free to house-rule it then. Currently there is no action available to the investigators that would allow them to take back the samples.

Indeed Just be aware that house ruling this will have huge implications for scenario balance.


As in, it would make it almost impossible for the keeper to win.
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Diego Garcia
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I always encourage my group to propose changes for every game that they think that could be suitable for it. But everybody have to agree in taking that house rule. So you have to analyze if picking up the samples from the altar does not break the games and makes it impossible to win for the keeper, if not feel free to do as the will of your group.
 
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Chick Lewis
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I have been gamemaster in similar situations in the past. When players grew irritated at my disallowal of some action not allowed by the rules, I have offered to play in a future game run by them in which the proposed rule amendment is legal.

I have NEVER had a single one of those guys take me up on it. None of them are willing to go to the trouble of preparing and running a game, they just want to play and gripe.
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Damon Baume
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Nessmk2 wrote:
Yeah, the rules don't say you can, so you can't, as written. It would make some objectives hilariously hard for the keeper, since the heroes could just spend a turn or two picking up all the samples and undoing the entirety of the keeper's work for no effort at all.


Along this line there's an acronym that we ASL players have that I find useful applying generally when dealing with rulebooks:

COWTRA

Concentrate On What The Rules Allow
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Scott Josephus
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As everyone addressed above, samples cannot be removed from the altar. Rules are in place for a reason, to make sure the game is somewhat balanced, and to make the game function, even if logically something could or couldn't not be done in real life.

Another illustrating Story. I remember playing the old Wizkids Pirates of the Spanish Main game with some people. Someone's ship was sunk, which allows the attacking player to take half of their treasure as salvage. The Player who was on the recieving end of the attack grew angry and declared that he was dumping all of his treasure overboard so the attacking player couldn't gain treasure from the experience. We then had the following conversation:

Me: You can't do that.

Him: Why not? there's no reason I shouldn't be able to do that. If this was real life I could do that.

Me: This isn't real life. This is a game, and a game has rules which are there for a reason.

Him: I had no chance. His ship was twice the size of mine.

Me: And he spent most of his build points on it. If his ship sinks, He has that one small boat left. You have four more ships.

Him [Snatching pieces off of the Table]: This Game is stupid!

We had to call the game due this, but I think I've made my point. If you just want to infer rules are there, almost any game will be able to be derailed due to it. Imagine:

[Chess]

Player 1: Pawn takes Knight.
Player 2: No, my Knight is mounted, so he just rides over your pawn and using a lance kills him. Your pawn can't get near him.

[Clue]
Player 1: Mr. Green, it's your turn.
Player 2: I shut the doors in the study and call the police to inform them about Mr. Boddy's murder.

[Bang]

Player 1: I'm the Sheriff. I order my duputies to raise their hands.

Etc . . .

Just a thought. If you want to have control over your character's actions as far as what they should be permitted to do, you should be playing a roleplaying game instead.

Mansions of Madness is a Boardgame with roleplaying elements. There's a big difference.
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