Wil
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What's the definitive rule of jump distance of a double swim forward and a swim forward over a waterfall?

I've read a bit about this but I don't think there was an official ruling. In this case, do you move 2 hexes or 3?

---

In addition, I've also seen some folks commenting that you can use any swim card with a double swim to meet the requirement of jumping. For example, a double swim forward and a swim right. That seems wrong to me as they aren't in the same direction, but I wanted to confirm this as well.

Thanks for your time.
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Phil
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I think another thread had it confirmed by the designer that you do move the entire sum of the cards you played, so for a double and single swim played, you'd move three spaces.

I don't think there was a ruling yet on whether you have to be adjacent to a waterfall hex to jump or if you can be one space away and use a Double Swim as one of your jump cards.


You don't have to play two of the same swim card to jump, you can play a forward and right/left. The example picture in the rules shows this.
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Wil
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farsidehobbes wrote:
I think another thread had it confirmed by the designer that you do move the entire sum of the cards you played, so for a double and single swim played, you'd move three spaces.


Great and thanks. I had missed that confirmation.


farsidehobbes wrote:
You don't have to play two of the same swim card to jump, you can play a forward and right/left. The example picture in the rules even shows this.


Thanks for pointing this out. I had looked at that picture a bit too quickly.


I wonder if the best way for me to think of this is:

Play two swim cards. One card in the direction you would like to head, and a second swim card of any direction to jump up the waterfall so you can move in the first card's direction


If this is correct interoperation, then I know the ruling on a variant I did not ask about:

Double swim forward + swim right.

This would not be two spaces forward and then one right. Instead it would be a double swim forward after the jump in that forward direction.

Sound right?

Thanks again.
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John Moller
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The really best way to think of it is that you can't LAND on a waterfall. Movement is exactly the same and treated the same throughout the game...you just can't stop on a waterfall hex. That's pretty much the bottom line.
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Jonathan Chaffer
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haccpmonkey wrote:
The really best way to think of it is that you can't LAND on a waterfall. Movement is exactly the same and treated the same throughout the game...you just can't stop on a waterfall hex. That's pretty much the bottom line.

That would be a clean and lovely simplification, and I would prefer teaching it that way. Sadly, this doesn't cover all the special cases.

At minimum, we know that is is not allowed to play a single Double Swim card to make it over a waterfall, even though that would not end your movement on the waterfall hex. Also, the rules state that you can't use two Double Swim cards to jump (though Jesse has indicated this may be an error).

We really need Jesse to collect all the waterfall-related rulings together and summarize them for us, I think. It is clearly the largest point of confusion from the rule book.
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JonBob wrote:
At minimum, we know that is is not allowed to play a single Double Swim card to make it over a waterfall, even though that would not end your movement on the waterfall hex.


Forgive my mistake in wording. I was absolutely thinking of that...and it's just a matter of tweaking the statement to say that in the case of waterfalls you must play two cards. Generally speaking to get over a waterfall most people are going to need to play two cards anyway. And most turns people will want to play more than one card (as long as they can.)

Yes, people do try to jump a waterfall with one double swim, but just correcting them by stating they have to play two CARDs to do that usually helps.


JonBob wrote:
Also, the rules state that you can't use two Double Swim cards to jump (though Jesse has indicated this may be an error).


In my playing, we've cut this rule already. It seemed arbitrary. If someone is lucky enough to have two swim cards in a hand of four cards when they reach a waterfall, more power to them. I'm hoping it's a mistake, but even if not, if feels like an over-complication. The game is better without it and the removal of the rule has had no effect on the games I've played (I've yet to see someone do it.)


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Jonathan Chaffer
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I agree whole-heartedly that the rules as stated seem arbitrarily complicated, and I prefer your formulation. I'm just pointing out that they are not the same thing.

Here's another edge case: It's been implied in other threads that you can't jump over two waterfall spaces in one go. This isn't spelled out as such in the rules, and in your formulation clearly you could pass over two waterfall hexes as long as you landed on normal water on the other side (picking up two Fatigues).

Again, I like yours better for its simplicity; it makes rulings on situations like this very clear. With "jumping" as a special action, though, as it is in the rule book, the door is opened for lots of ambiguity about the edge cases.
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Phil
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Quote:
Play two swim cards. One card in the direction you would like to head, and a second swim card of any direction to jump up the waterfall so you can move in the first card's direction

That's not correct. If you look at the example picture for jumping you simply combine 2 jumps cards together and move according to the cards you played, e.g. 1 space forward and 1 space to the right if you played a Swim Forward and Swim Right.

Quote:
Double swim forward + swim right.
This would not be two spaces forward and then one right. Instead it would be a double swim forward after the jump in that forward direction.

Sound right?

It would be two spaces forward and then one right.
Double swim forward + swim right cards together are the jump, so you are jumping at an angle (2 up, 1 right). When jumping, the hex you end up in is basically the sum of all the movement of the cards you played.
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haccpmonkey wrote:
Generally speaking to get over a waterfall most people are going to need to play two cards anyway.

Not generally, they have to, as the rules state that to jump you must play 2 swim cards. Either 2 singles, a single and a double, or a wild and a single/double. I played that 2 doubles is also fine since the designer indicated that was left in the rules in error.

JonBob wrote:
Here's another edge case: It's been implied in other threads that you can't jump over two waterfall spaces in one go. This isn't spelled out as such in the rules, and in your formulation clearly you could pass over two waterfall hexes as long as you landed on normal water on the other side (picking up two Fatigues).

Wouldn't you only pick up 1 Fatigue? Fatigue is picked up for the jump, not the number of waterfall hexes you pass over.

I think with all of the questions regarding jumping a summation of the official rulings is necessary.
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John Moller
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farsidehobbes wrote:
haccpmonkey wrote:
Generally speaking to get over a waterfall most people are going to need to play two cards anyway.

Not generally, they have to, as the rules state that to jump you must play 2 swim cards.


I am aware of this. That statement followed after explaining players MUST play two cards. I'm sorry if you felt I was in error. That was more about their being more single than double swims in the game, meaning most people are potentially not going to have a double swim card at that precise moment. ...which means that regardless of the rule, they will need to play 2 cards to get over it anyway.

It's all good, but I was not in any way saying that players didn't have to play two cards. I am aware of the rule.
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Jesse Catron
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Jumping a waterfall with a swim and a double swim results in a movement of 3 hexes in the direction indicated by the two cards and a fatigue card added to your discard pile. Examples:

Swim forward +double swim forward= 3 spaces forward (provided it is a legal hex to land on- not a rock hex or a waterfall hex)

Swim right +double swim forward= land on the space one hex to the right and two hexes forward

I will create an expanded illustration in the upcoming FAQ for jumping with double swims.

Jumping with two double swims will be made legal.
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